Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Tid Bit. Getting to the top of the mountain. And not over load the engine or transmission.
| Re: [GMCnet] Tid Bit. Getting to the top of the mountain. And not over load the engine or transmission. [message #340515 is a reply to message #340497] |
Wed, 30 January 2019 23:34   |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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There is plenty oil in the pan , so unless run in mid 5,000rpm, your fine,
your read too many hot rod mags.
On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 6:35 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> I mounted the digipanel out of sight on my 23', and will on the 26'. What
> I want is the alarm from it. I have reasonable accurate gauges for exacts
> which I can see.
> I'm hoping the new engine will show me the 3.7 is worthwhile - it
> certainly added nothing but noise and ROM to the last motor. Which was
> basically
> junque. In roughly three years I found zero benefit from the antispin
> setup in it... it just spun both wheels instead of only one in the loose
> stuff.
> We will see.
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| [GMCnet] Running you engine out of oil in the oil pan. In a GMC due to higher RPM's. NEVER HAPPEN [message #340525 is a reply to message #340504] |
Thu, 31 January 2019 10:33 |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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This Will NEVER happen if your engine is in any kind of decent condition. Yes. Joe Mendillo recommended opening up the oil drain back ports. I don't think that there's a race engine builder of any brand of engine. That doesn't do that. But those engine are being operated well over 6000 RPM's all the time. Those ports are a rough casting. The Olds engines that I've built. I cleaned up the drain port. Why. A habit from all the high RPM engines that I've built. Did I need too. NO. It's that you can't get an old dog from doing his old tricks. Bob Dunahugh
________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 10:48 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: RE: Tid Bit. Getting to the top of the mountain. And not over load the engine or transmission.
I've never had my 403 at the wide open throttle position except for passing. And that's on 2 lane roads only. I shift down to a lower gear ratio. I'll run the RPMs up to just under 5000 if needed. So that I don't go to wide open. My half throttle, and seldom 3/4 at most rule. Is to keep the combustion chamber pressures/temps lower, exhaust valve temps lower, bearing loads down, and thus my over all engine temps lowered in the prosses. The next benefit is that my trans temp/load is reduced. The trans that's in the GMC we drive now. Was in the burned GMC. I rebuilt that trans myself in 2003. Plus that trans never is on the road without a 17000, to 24000 lbs GVW. I've never had any engine problems except for the water pump shaft that twisted off a year ago. I don't know of any GMC that pulls the loads that ours's does. That 3:70 FD has a lot to do with it. And I do it with the heaviest coach. Then the smallest engine. Something to think about the next time that you don't want to run the RPM's up. Bob Dunahugh
________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2019 11:26 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Tid Bit. Getting to the top of the mountain. And not over load the engine or transmission.
Think of it this way. You have a 10 speed bike. You shift to a lower ratio. So that it takes less effort for you. The bikes engine. To get down the road. Or up that hill. Thus you. The bikes engine will run cooler. And not be so tired at the top of the hill. The 3:70 FD is an outstanding improvement to any GMC. Towing or not. Mileage goes up because your running a higher intake vacuum. Less load on pistons/bearings. And the water pump is getting more water to the radiator. The same situation for the transmission. Runs cooler with less load. More fluid to the trans cooler. If your running a power drive chain in the transmission. The trans will not get the less load/heat reductions that the 3:70 FD offers. And finally as to transmission loading on steep climbs. NEVER use more then half throttle. NEVER. And except the speed you get.
There is a very old thought that running an engine at higher RPM's is hard on your engine. That idea died in the mid 50's. When compression ratio's went up. Piston technology made great strides. Aluminum pistons were replacing the heavy cast iron ones of the day. Engine lubrication system were greatly improved. Pulling a heavy load like are GMC's at low RPM's. Puts more load on the engine pistons, and bearings. Reduce the load/heat on your engine, and trans. Don't be overly concerned about running the RPM's to the 4000, to 4500 point. I've been in the mountains with a GVW of 17,000 lbs. That's the weight on one and a half GMC's. Using a perfectly stock 403. No headers, no 3 inch exhaust, and no extras engine venting. Bob Dunahugh
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tid Bit. Getting to the top of the mountain. And not over load the engine or transmission. [message #340532 is a reply to message #340515] |
Thu, 31 January 2019 11:59 |
johnd01
Messages: 354
Registered: July 2017
Location: Sacrameot
Karma: -1
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Jim
Any comment about switch pitch converter?
On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 9:36 PM Jim Kanomata wrote:
> There is plenty oil in the pan , so unless run in mid 5,000rpm, your fine,
> your read too many hot rod mags.
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 6:35 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> I mounted the digipanel out of sight on my 23', and will on the 26'.
> What
>> I want is the alarm from it. I have reasonable accurate gauges for
> exacts
>> which I can see.
>> I'm hoping the new engine will show me the 3.7 is worthwhile - it
>> certainly added nothing but noise and ROM to the last motor. Which was
>> basically
>> junque. In roughly three years I found zero benefit from the antispin
>> setup in it... it just spun both wheels instead of only one in the loose
>> stuff.
>> We will see.
>>
>> --johnny
>> --
>> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>> Braselton, Ga.
>> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to
> me
>> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
*John Phillips*
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tid Bit. Getting to the top of the mountain. And not over load the engine or transmission. [message #340533 is a reply to message #340532] |
Thu, 31 January 2019 12:09 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Only experience I have them was with the switch pitch Buicks. Never dealt
with one in a GMC. Manny Trevao is your switch pitch go to guy. I have a
some experience with over n under transfer cases and 2 speed rear ends and
manual shift overdrive transmissions. On hills, they all have some good
points if you are a good shift jockey.
Jim Hupy
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019, 9:55 AM John Phillips Jim[/color]
> Any comment about switch pitch converter?
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 9:36 PM Jim Kanomata
> wrote:
>
>> There is plenty oil in the pan , so unless run in mid 5,000rpm, your
> fine,
>> your read too many hot rod mags.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 6:35 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist > gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I mounted the digipanel out of sight on my 23', and will on the 26'.
>> What
>>> I want is the alarm from it. I have reasonable accurate gauges for
>> exacts
>>> which I can see.
>>> I'm hoping the new engine will show me the 3.7 is worthwhile - it
>>> certainly added nothing but noise and ROM to the last motor. Which was
>>> basically
>>> junque. In roughly three years I found zero benefit from the antispin
>>> setup in it... it just spun both wheels instead of only one in the
> loose
>>> stuff.
>>> We will see.
>>>
>>> --johnny
>>> --
>>> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>>> Braselton, Ga.
>>> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to
>> me
>>> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> --
>> Jim Kanomata
>> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
>> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>> http://www.appliedgmc.com
>> 1-800-752-7502
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Phillips*
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tid Bit. Getting to the top of the mountain. And not over load the engine or transmission. [message #340536 is a reply to message #340532] |
Thu, 31 January 2019 13:03 |
Nelson
Messages: 120
Registered: August 2014
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Not Jim,
But here is my experience with the switch pitch tranny in one of my GMC mh. it worked great for short periods of engagement, like passing on two lane roads or pulling the mh over a curb. After installing a temp gauge on the tranny fluid i noted that the temp would rise drastically when the switch pitch kicked in, so I then installed a lockout electrical switch to control the engagement. Using the switch pitch on a long uphill pull would overheat the ATF big time. I should also note that the Switch pitch came with a 3.21 FD that worked well as it seem to have somewhat of a limited slip capability .
HTH
Nelson Wright
Belle Isle Fl.
78 Rear Bath Royal
On Jan 31, 2019, at 12:59 PM, John Phillips wrote:
> Jim
> Any comment about switch pitch converter?
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 9:36 PM Jim Kanomata wrote:
>
>> There is plenty oil in the pan , so unless run in mid 5,000rpm, your fine,
>> your read too many hot rod mags.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 6:35 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist > gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I mounted the digipanel out of sight on my 23', and will on the 26'.
>> What
>>> I want is the alarm from it. I have reasonable accurate gauges for
>> exacts
>>> which I can see.
>>> I'm hoping the new engine will show me the 3.7 is worthwhile - it
>>> certainly added nothing but noise and ROM to the last motor. Which was
>>> basically
>>> junque. In roughly three years I found zero benefit from the antispin
>>> setup in it... it just spun both wheels instead of only one in the loose
>>> stuff.
>>> We will see.
>>>
>>> --johnny
>>> --
>>> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>>> Braselton, Ga.
>>> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to
>> me
>>> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> --
>> Jim Kanomata
>> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
>> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>> http://www.appliedgmc.com
>> 1-800-752-7502
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Phillips*
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tid Bit. Getting to the top of the mountain. And not over load the engine or transmission. [message #340537 is a reply to message #340407] |
Thu, 31 January 2019 13:10 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Switch pitch was to launch the big heavy cars and act as a passing gear, short term only. These cars, such as a 1967 Electra 430-4 had a 2.78 rear so needed the extra torque multiplication, then have almost an
Overdrive equivalent with the 2.78 rear, low stall and in 3rd in the TH400. It might work on a GMC off the line or passing, but personally I think using converter multiplication to pull a long grade is a bad way to do it. Dexron temps will climb faster than the coach will.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tid Bit. Getting to the top of the mountain. And not over load the engine or transmission. [message #340540 is a reply to message #340536] |
Thu, 31 January 2019 13:40 |
johnd01
Messages: 354
Registered: July 2017
Location: Sacrameot
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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The first vehicle I ever drove by my self was a 48 dodge truck five-speed
with a 2-speed axle and 26000 written on the door. Dad showed me how to
start it in low gear and let it idle from the field to park it in front of
the grain bins about 1/2 mile away. Grandma about had a cow when she saw me
get out of the truck. I was about five at the time. Later I drove an
International Harvester tractor with a torque amplifier. I hoped the switch
pitch would simulate the function of the 2-speed axle or the TA. It seems
like it kind of does for short periods but cannot be used for hill
climbing.
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 11:04 AM Nelson Wright wrote:
> Not Jim,
> But here is my experience with the switch pitch tranny in one of my GMC
> mh. it worked great for short periods of engagement, like passing on two
> lane roads or pulling the mh over a curb. After installing a temp gauge on
> the tranny fluid i noted that the temp would rise drastically when the
> switch pitch kicked in, so I then installed a lockout electrical switch to
> control the engagement. Using the switch pitch on a long uphill pull would
> overheat the ATF big time. I should also note that the Switch pitch came
> with a 3.21 FD that worked well as it seem to have somewhat of a limited
> slip capability .
> HTH
> Nelson Wright
> Belle Isle Fl.
> 78 Rear Bath Royal
>
> On Jan 31, 2019, at 12:59 PM, John Phillips wrote:
>
>> Jim
>> Any comment about switch pitch converter?
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 9:36 PM Jim Kanomata
> wrote:
>>
>>> There is plenty oil in the pan , so unless run in mid 5,000rpm, your
> fine,
>>> your read too many hot rod mags.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 6:35 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist >> gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I mounted the digipanel out of sight on my 23', and will on the 26'.
>>> What
>>>> I want is the alarm from it. I have reasonable accurate gauges for
>>> exacts
>>>> which I can see.
>>>> I'm hoping the new engine will show me the 3.7 is worthwhile - it
>>>> certainly added nothing but noise and ROM to the last motor. Which was
>>>> basically
>>>> junque. In roughly three years I found zero benefit from the antispin
>>>> setup in it... it just spun both wheels instead of only one in the
> loose
>>>> stuff.
>>>> We will see.
>>>>
>>>> --johnny
>>>> --
>>>> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>>>> Braselton, Ga.
>>>> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to
>>> me
>>>> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Jim Kanomata
>>> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
>>> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>>> http://www.appliedgmc.com
>>> 1-800-752-7502
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *John Phillips*
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
*John Phillips*
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tid Bit. Getting to the top of the mountain. And not over load the engine or transmission. [message #340546 is a reply to message #340532] |
Thu, 31 January 2019 18:36 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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IIRC, Manny approves of 'most any ATF (we put WalMart's house brand in the
ones he built here) -- UNLESS it's switch pitch, then he recommends Mobil
1. To me, that says something about the effects of temperature in the SP.
Ken H.
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 12:55 PM John Phillips
wrote:
> Jim
> Any comment about switch pitch converter?
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 9:36 PM Jim Kanomata
> wrote:
>
>> There is plenty oil in the pan , so unless run in mid 5,000rpm, your
> fine,
>> your read too many hot rod mags.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 6:35 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist > gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I mounted the digipanel out of sight on my 23', and will on the 26'.
>> What
>>> I want is the alarm from it. I have reasonable accurate gauges for
>> exacts
>>> which I can see.
>>> I'm hoping the new engine will show me the 3.7 is worthwhile - it
>>> certainly added nothing but noise and ROM to the last motor. Which was
>>> basically
>>> junque. In roughly three years I found zero benefit from the antispin
>>> setup in it... it just spun both wheels instead of only one in the
> loose
>>> stuff.
>>> We will see.
>>>
>>> --johnny
>>> --
>>> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>>> Braselton, Ga.
>>> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to
>> me
>>> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> --
>> Jim Kanomata
>> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
>> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>> http://www.appliedgmc.com
>> 1-800-752-7502
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Phillips*
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] New Subscriber, Stu Rasmussen- passed away [message #367626 is a reply to message #340477] |
Fri, 19 November 2021 19:38 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Looks like we lost another GMC owner to cancer. My mom just txted me that Stu had passed away. He was a old friend of family when we lived in the town of Silverton oregon in the 90’s.
Reacquainted via the gmc as he was fixing up a couple. I think he is survived by his wife. And no idea future fate of gmc’s.
Stu Rasmussen wrote on Tue, 29 January 2019 15:52Greetings to the list.
New list member, very recent GMC motorhome purchaser; thought it might
be a good idea.
'Good idea' - subscribing to the list, definitely - purchasing the
motorhome, we shall see.
Short story: Have had romantic notions about 'life on the road', scanned
craigslist relentlessly for something suitable, found a 'fixer upper'
GMC, made the deal and buyer's remorse has not yet set in.
Rig is a 1974 Eleganza that the two previous owners had the same notion
I did and apparently ran out of time / money / inspiration / passion. My
turn now.
It runs and drives mostly, the inside is mostly gutted and many but not
all pieces are still with it.
I need another project (like I need an additional hole in my head?) but
this was something I thought would be fun and the better half didn't
dismiss it as 'ugly' right out of the box. So there's a glimmer of hope.
That's my story for now.
Stu
Silverton, Oregon
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Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| [GMCnet] Re: New Subscriber, Stu Rasmussen- passed away [message #367629 is a reply to message #367626] |
Fri, 19 November 2021 20:33 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
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I am working with his wife to hopefully get his 77 23' on the market. She
has sent me some pictures that I will be posting in the next couple of
weeks. She is busy with funeral details right now. Cancer is a friend to no
one. So sorry.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 5:38 PM Jon Roche wrote:
> Looks like we lost another GMC owner to cancer. My mom just txted me
> that Stu had passed away. He was a old friend of family when we lived in
> the
> town of Silverton oregon in the 90’s.
>
> Reacquainted via the gmc as he was fixing up a couple. I think he is
> survived by his wife. And no idea future fate of gmc’s.
>
>
>
>
>
> Stu Rasmussen wrote on Tue, 29 January 2019 15:52
>> Greetings to the list.
>>
>> New list member, very recent GMC motorhome purchaser; thought it might
>> be a good idea.
>>
>> 'Good idea' - subscribing to the list, definitely - purchasing the
>> motorhome, we shall see.
>>
>> Short story: Have had romantic notions about 'life on the road', scanned
>> craigslist relentlessly for something suitable, found a 'fixer upper'
>> GMC, made the deal and buyer's remorse has not yet set in.
>>
>> Rig is a 1974 Eleganza that the two previous owners had the same notion
>> I did and apparently ran out of time / money / inspiration / passion. My
>> turn now.
>>
>> It runs and drives mostly, the inside is mostly gutted and many but not
>> all pieces are still with it.
>>
>> I need another project (like I need an additional hole in my head?) but
>> this was something I thought would be fun and the better half didn't
>> dismiss it as 'ugly' right out of the box. So there's a glimmer of hope.
>>
>> That's my story for now.
>>
>> Stu
>> Silverton, Oregon
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> --
> Jon Roche
> 75 palm beach
> EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
> St. Cloud, MN
> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
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Stick the fender just ahead of the kid in the Chev and keep it there till he blows. Usually takes under ten miles.