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[GMCnet] It could only happen to me [message #363430]

Wed, 14 April 2021 22:46

Marsh Wilkes

Messages: 155
Registered: January 2004

Karma: -3

Senior Member

An extremely long story, I will condense as much as possible.
An imbecile mechanic in trying to remove the cam sensor on my
G8 GT 6.0 completely destroyed the sensor. By the time I got involved
he had the remaining portion of the sensor FUBR and pushed back into the
mounting hole in the timing chain cover, stopped from falling into the engine
only by the cam gear. No way it was coming out whole. A good friend owned
the shop, he subsequently fell and broke his hip causing permanent shop closing,
he can’t and I won’t ask him to make it right. Faced with over a gran in labor for a
conventional fix, I decided to try the almost impossible, which I am pretty good at.
First I was able to solder a wire to the remnant of an electrical wire sticking out of the
remains of the sensor so it could not fall into the engine. I set up my Makita shop vac with
very high suction to remove debris. I then started grinding on the sensor to reduce it’s size.
It was extraordinarily tedious. Due to the location I was having to use inspection mirror, bore scope,
a dremel cable drive, carbide burrs, right angle pick, special lighting etc. after several hours work, I
was able to retrieve the remains of the sensor.
Here in lies the question, I did not know this but the sensor itself cast in plastic, was then molded into
an outer housing of plastic. At the last moment this outer housing, the remnants of a thimble shaped piece of
plastic about 3/4” diameter and about 1/2” long with walls about 1/16” thick fell into the engine!
My question is, what is the probability of it damaging the timing chain, or causing other problems?
I hope Matt and other engine experts are listening, I sure need to hear some opinions.
I am open to all suggestions.
Thanks

Marsh “rarely post any more” Wilkes
Perry Florida
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Re: [GMCnet] It could only happen to me [message #363432 is a reply to message #363430]

Thu, 15 April 2021 07:42

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Marsh,

I never worked on this engine and I do not envy your situation. I do, however, admire your creativity and effort.

This sensor goes into the timing cover from the front? The likely hood of that plastic damaging the timing gears is slim. What would concern me is where it went after that. This is worry because the timing chain can chew that plastic into little pieces. Those pieces will most likely be large enough to be trapped in the pick-up screen. Some may not. Those that do should get collected in the lube oil filter.

Here comes the worry part....
If those little pieces get through the lube oil protections like the filter bypass, they may contaminate the hydraulic lash adjusters or clog a lube oil jet someplace in the engine.

My next question would be if you can get the pan down with the engine in it's mounts. If you can, that is exactly what I would do next. The piece is probably resting in the mesh of the chain at the crank and after the other work you have done, getting out of there should not be too tough.

As I do recall, that oil pan gasket is a single molder rubber part and if you can take it down gently, there is no reason it can't be put back in that same way.

I wish you the best of luck and please tell us how it works out.

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: [GMCnet] It could only happen to me [message #363433 is a reply to message #363430]

Thu, 15 April 2021 09:41

TR 1

Messages: 348
Registered: August 2015
Location: DFW

Karma: -7

Senior Member

We have a G8 GT 6.0 we bought new... It now has over 280K miles...

At around 180K, we had the dreaded AFM lifter failure... You could hear what almost sounded like a squeak coming from the engine... When it happened, I removed the accessory drive belt in case the noise was coming from a squeaky bearing on a tensioner or something... But no luck, heard the same noise right off when I started it with no belt.

When I pulled it apart, found one lifter and cam lobe badly pitted. and some additional damage to other lifters and cam lobes adjacent to the really bad lifter. Pulled the pan, (Yes you can do it with the crossmember in place) and there was metal in the pickup screen, and some scoring on the oil pump.

I decided to gamble that the filter picked up all contaminants (since I did not see any damage on the cam or lifters further away from the one that failed) and I reassembled with a new cam, oil pump, lifters, etc.

Started her up and she ran great (actually I think it ran a little stronger than before as I used the replacement cam from the police package cars as that was all that was available at the local dealer). That was over 100K miles ago, and it still runs great. Uses about a quart of oil every 5k miles... Not bad for a car that could have driven to the moon...

Anyway, I always used a quality filter (Mobil1 filter or OEM) and changed it when the oil life monitor said so.

Basically my point in all this is the filtration system is excellent on these cars. I live in a warm climate, and assume that plus the synthetic oil never caused the oil filter to bypass while there was metal floating around.

Based on that experience, I would not sweat it at all if a piece of plastic somehow made it's way into the engine. I might for piece of mind, monitor the oil pressure for a bit to make sure it all looks normal. You should be able to do this via the OBDII port with a scangauge. The G8 also has a "Diagnostic Mode" you can access by holding down the DIC Select button when starting the car... But I do not remember if oil pressure is displayed when doing so. Scanguage or OBDII monitor should definitely let you display it though.

Anyway, hope that puts your mind at ease (and that I am not wrong about your car!), but again, if I were in your shoes, I would not sweat it.

Mark S. '73 Painted Desert, Manny 1 Ton Front End, Howell Injection, Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes, Fort Worth, TX

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Re: [GMCnet] It could only happen to me [message #363434 is a reply to message #363430]

Thu, 15 April 2021 09:48

TR 1

Messages: 348
Registered: August 2015
Location: DFW

Karma: -7

Senior Member

On a side note, we bought our G8 in July of '09 right before our daughter was born. It's still in great shape, and I plan on holding on to it and giving it to her as her first car... Be cool to say your first car is also the car you rode home in from the hospital when you were born... Smile

Mark S. '73 Painted Desert, Manny 1 Ton Front End, Howell Injection, Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes, Fort Worth, TX

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[GMCnet] Re: It could only happen to me [message #363437 is a reply to message #363433]

Thu, 15 April 2021 14:13

Marsh Wilkes

Messages: 155
Registered: January 2004

Karma: -3

Senior Member

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the reply, see the reply I made to Matt for details.
We got our GT with 45K on it, you couldn't tell it wasn't new.
I had the lifter problem at around 60K and thankfully was able to
have it fixed under warranty. The car now has 170K on it is and is still
in very good condition. My wife commuted to work in it up until a couple
of years, I should be shot for not getting her a "commuter car" much earlier
as I wanted to make somewhat of a garage queen out of the GT. What you are
saying about your mileage and oil usage is very encouraging for my plans to
keep
the car! I also should be shot for not yet having the transmission serviced
yet, my
mechanic said he could not do it, that it was a dealer service item. It was
scheduled
at 100K, I don't see any reason not to have it done now, do you or anyone
else listening.
When the service interval was 25K I was good at having it done or doing it
myself, although
many people never had it done and I have heard stories of transmission
failure soon after servicing
way beyond the correct interval. I have always used Mobile 1 and a Delco
filter and changed at generally
3K to 5K intervals, which is sooner than recommended now days.
Thanks for the idea of monitoring the oil pressure, I can do it with a
scanner.
Tell me about your experince with the transmission, mileages you serviced it
at, any problems etc.
What about the front strut mounts, I am still on the original although they
have rattled for quite a while.
I am considering ordering a complete suspension package what experience have
you had in that area?
When I got the car the PO had installed a Borla SS cat back system, a little
loud, but O so sweet!
You will of course teach your daughter well, how to drive. Most teenagers
you couldn't give the family sedan,
but I’m guessing she can't wait to get her license!
I would like to talk with you, we can take this to private mail.
Thanks again for the advice and encouragement.

Marsh Wilkes
Perry FL
gmc455@comcast.net
850-295-5997

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Sawyer
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 10:41 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: It could only happen to me

We have a G8 GT 6.0 we bought new... It now has over 280K miles...

At around 180K, we had the dreaded AFM lifter failure... You could hear
what almost sounded like a squeak coming from the engine... When it
happened, I removed the accessory drive belt in case the noise was coming
from a squeaky bearing on a tensioner or something... But no luck, heard
the same noise right off when I started it with no belt.

When I pulled it apart, found one lifter and cam lobe badly pitted. and some
additional damage to other lifters and cam lobes adjacent to the really
bad lifter. Pulled the pan, (Yes you can do it with the crossmember in
place) and there was metal in the pickup screen, and some scoring on the oil
pump.

I decided to gamble that the filter picked up all contaminants (since I did
not see any damage on the cam or lifters further away from the one that
failed) and I reassembled with a new cam, oil pump, lifters, etc.

Started her up and she ran great (actually I think it ran a little stronger
than before as I used the replacement cam from the police package cars as
that was all that was available at the local dealer). That was over 100K
miles ago, and it still runs great. Uses about a quart of oil every 5k
miles... Not bad for a car that could have driven to the moon...

Anyway, I always used a quality filter (Mobil1 filter or OEM) and changed it
when the oil life monitor said so.

Basically my point in all this is the filtration system is excellent on
these cars. I live in a warm climate, and assume that plus the synthetic
oil
never caused the oil filter to bypass while there was metal floating around.

Based on that experience, I would not sweat it at all if a piece of plastic
somehow made it's way into the engine. I might for piece of mind, monitor
the oil pressure for a bit to make sure it all looks normal. You should be
able to do this via the OBDII port with a scangauge. The G8 also has a
"Diagnostic Mode" you can access by holding down the DIC Select button when
starting the car... But I do not remember if oil pressure is displayed
when doing so. Scanguage or OBDII monitor should definitely let you display
it though.

Anyway, hope that puts your mind at ease (and that I am not wrong about your
car!), but again, if I were in your shoes, I would not sweat it.
--
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
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[GMCnet] Re: It could only happen to me [message #363438 is a reply to message #363432]

Thu, 15 April 2021 14:13

Marsh Wilkes

Messages: 155
Registered: January 2004

Karma: -3

Senior Member

Thank you so much for the reply Matt. I have read your post for years,
I have a great respect and admiration for your knowledge.
Yes the sensor goes in through a hole in the front of the timing chain
cover partially behind the water pump which I would remove if I had it to
do over. As you pointed out the remnant of the plastic is probably at the
crank gear, I think I can see it with the right angle mirror on the bore
scope.
I may spend some time probing through the sensor hole with a small vacuum
hose on the slim possibility of recovering the plastic. As the hose would
have to
go in only an inch then make a 90 down and go another 4 or 5 inches the
likelihood
of success is slim. Clearly plastic into the oil delivery system would be a
worst case
scenario, however the likelihood of that happening does seem quite small. I
want to thank
you and Mark for pointing out that removing the pan is another option, I had
not considered
that. I have a full Helm/GM manual on the car about 2400 pages. Looking at
it, there is considerably
more to pulling the pan than I can get into right now, also looking at the
drawings it appears that accessing
the top of the crank gear directly behind the oil pump and inside the timing
chain may not doable from the
bottom, I really don't know the answer to that for certain.
My thoughts now are to spend some time with a vacuum hose and or see if I
can get even more creative in a
recovery effort.
Based on yours and Mark's reply along with others and my intuition, I will
probably take a chance on it.

Thanks Again

Marsh Wilkes
Perry FL

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 8:42 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: It could only happen to me

Marsh,

I never worked on this engine and I do not envy your situation. I do,
however, admire your creativity and effort.

This sensor goes into the timing cover from the front? The likely hood of
that plastic damaging the timing gears is slim. What would concern me is
where it went after that. This is worry because the timing chain can chew
that plastic into little pieces. Those pieces will most likely be large
enough to be trapped in the pick-up screen. Some may not. Those that do
should get collected in the lube oil filter.

Here comes the worry part....
If those little pieces get through the lube oil protections like the filter
bypass, they may contaminate the hydraulic lash adjusters or clog a lube
oil jet someplace in the engine.

My next question would be if you can get the pan down with the engine in
it's mounts. If you can, that is exactly what I would do next. The piece
is
probably resting in the mesh of the chain at the crank and after the other
work you have done, getting out of there should not be too tough.

As I do recall, that oil pan gasket is a single molder rubber part and if
you can take it down gently, there is no reason it can't be put back in that
same way.

I wish you the best of luck and please tell us how it works out.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes
with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: [GMCnet] Re: It could only happen to me [message #363446 is a reply to message #363438]

Thu, 15 April 2021 17:59

Carl S.

Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.

Karma: 13

Senior Member

Marsh,

Is there any chance you could fish the plastic piece out of there using a stiff wire with a hook on the end?

Carl Stouffer '75 ex Palm Beach Tucson, AZ. Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member

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[GMCnet] Re: It could only happen to me [message #363447 is a reply to message #363446]

Thu, 15 April 2021 18:12

Marsh Wilkes

Messages: 155
Registered: January 2004

Karma: -3

Senior Member

Hi Carl,

There is a chance.
I will look into that possibility.
Thanks for the idea.

Marsh Wilkes
Perry FL

-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Stouffer
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2021 6:59 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: It could only happen to me

Marsh,

Is there any chance you could fish the plastic piece out of there using a
stiff wire with a hook on the end?
--
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive,
Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American
Eagles,
Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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