Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence....
| Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359505] |
Fri, 16 October 2020 11:15  |
Scott Nutter
Messages: 782
Registered: January 2015
Location: Houston/San Diego
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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I have developed flat spots on my furthest aft tires. I am going to buy 2 new tires to rotate in. Where do I want the newest tires to be mounted? I thought I read here somewhere that you would want the best tires to be on the bogies. Any suggestions?
Thanks, Scott.
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, Dave Lenzi super duty mid axle disc brakes, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359507 is a reply to message #359505] |
Fri, 16 October 2020 11:18  |
stu@97381.com, Emery
Messages: 232
Registered: June 2020
Karma: 2
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I have always put new tires on the front wheels
Emery Stora
> On Oct 16, 2020, at 10:17 AM, Scott Nutter via Gmclist wrote:
>
> I have developed flat spots on my furthest aft tires. I am going to buy 2 new tires to rotate in. Where do I want the newest tires to be mounted? I
> thought I read here somewhere that you would want the best tires to be on the bogies. Any suggestions?
> Thanks, Scott.
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
> installed MSD Atomic EFI
> Houston, Texas
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359508 is a reply to message #359505] |
Fri, 16 October 2020 11:39 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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I'm with Emery, on the front and ever thing moves back a notch.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359520 is a reply to message #359505] |
Sat, 17 October 2020 08:15 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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That's fairly simple, RF. 'Put them where I say or skip the sale'
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359522 is a reply to message #359505] |
Sat, 17 October 2020 11:11 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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This is a repost of something I wrote last December. Might be worth repeating.
I have put the coach on a 6 yr replacement plan. 2 tires every two years. Seems the front tires wear the fastest. Then it seems the mid axle wears next. and the rear axle is just along for the ride and wear the least. When the front wear to a point where traction may be compromised or reach 4 yrs old, I move them to mid axle. Mid axle rims get new tires and moved to the rear. Rear tires get moved to the front. Do this every two years, so I'm only laying out money for two at a time every two years. We also put on about 10 - 14 k miles every year. So by the time replace two 6yr old tires, they have between 30-42K miles on them. They have now timed out with as many miles as I can get out of them and still safely run them. This way, oldest tires are 6yrs, followed by 4 yrs and 2yrs. I've actually got one wheel...the passenger side mid axle that is slightly toed in and wears faster than all of the others. But it has become not worth the effort to correct the slight toe problem on that wheel, because the tire there times out before it is worn below the wear bars. This all works for me running Michelin Defender LTX-MS tires. If the coach will stand still for more than a couple of weeks, I tire cover them as I do not have inside storage.
The hard part is getting into that replacement management scheme. You may have to replace a set a year or two earlier or later to get the rotation right. I was able to do it when I bought an off-brand set of tires that tread separated. Two of them at two years use and another two at 4 years. Just worked out for me. The problem with off-brand tires is that they were regionally available, so when they went bad while traveling south, I was not able to get to a shop that carried the brand to make the adjustment. The one time I could get to a shop that carried them, it was far enough out of the way that it would have cost me more in gas to get there than the cost of the replacement tire. JMHO, but now I use only Michelin LTXMS, and have never had a problem with them. To me, the peace of mind is worth the extra money for the Brand Name.
I also take the best of the two 6 yr old tires and move it to the spare. Requires having same size rim on spare as the other 6 on the coach. That way the spare is never more than 8 yrs old.
FWIW, some time when you have time, take your GMCMH to a empty part of a parking lot. Stop somewhere out of the way. Then, turning the steering wheel, crank the wheel all of the way either left or right. Put coach in gear and go forward 1/4 to 1/2 of a circle. Stop, put it in park and get out and look at the 4 rear wheel/tires. It is shocking how much those bogie arms and tires bend/squirm to accommodate a turn. / | \ Front tires don't react nearly as extreme as rears. So, every time you turn a corner, you are really working those sidewalls. IMO, with that kind of squirm, this is why most blow-outs occur on the rear as those sidewalls are consistantly being bent/streatched to their limits. So, I think we need to be running a well made/engineered tire that is capable of handling this abuse. When I park my coach for the night or for that matter, any period of time, if I had just turned the wheel a little, I will point the wheels straight forward, then pull forward and back 2-3 times just to take the bend/squirm out of the tires. Just what I do. (JWID)
Hope this helps. 
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359523 is a reply to message #359522] |
Sat, 17 October 2020 12:14 |
johnd01
Messages: 354
Registered: July 2017
Location: Sacrameot
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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Is there an advantage to doing as you suggested rather than just replace
the fronts and move everything back a position?
On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 9:12 AM Larry via Gmclist
wrote:
> This is a repost of something I wrote last December. Might be worth
> repeating.
>
> I have put the coach on a 6 yr replacement plan. 2 tires every two years.
> Seems the front tires wear the fastest. Then it seems the mid axle wears
> next. and the rear axle is just along for the ride and wear the least.
> When the front wear to a point where traction may be compromised or reach 4
> yrs
> old, I move them to mid axle. Mid axle rims get new tires and moved to the
> rear. Rear tires get moved to the front. Do this every two years, so I'm
> only laying out money for two at a time every two years. We also put on
> about 10 - 14 k miles every year. So by the time replace two 6yr old tires,
> they have between 30-42K miles on them. They have now timed out with as
> many miles as I can get out of them and still safely run them. This way,
> oldest tires are 6yrs, followed by 4 yrs and 2yrs. I've actually got one
> wheel...the passenger side mid axle that is slightly toed in and wears
> faster
> than all of the others. But it has become not worth the effort to correct
> the slight toe problem on that wheel, because the tire there times out
> before it is worn below the wear bars. This all works for me running
> Michelin Defender LTX-MS tires. If the coach will stand still for more than
> a
> couple of weeks, I tire cover them as I do not have inside storage.
>
> The hard part is getting into that replacement management scheme. You may
> have to replace a set a year or two earlier or later to get the rotation
> right. I was able to do it when I bought an off-brand set of tires that
> tread separated. Two of them at two years use and another two at 4 years.
> Just
> worked out for me. The problem with off-brand tires is that they were
> regionally available, so when they went bad while traveling south, I was not
> able to get to a shop that carried the brand to make the adjustment. The
> one time I could get to a shop that carried them, it was far enough out of
> the way that it would have cost me more in gas to get there than the cost
> of the replacement tire. JMHO, but now I use only Michelin LTXMS, and have
> never had a problem with them. To me, the peace of mind is worth the extra
> money for the Brand Name.
>
> I also take the best of the two 6 yr old tires and move it to the spare.
> Requires having same size rim on spare as the other 6 on the coach. That way
> the spare is never more than 8 yrs old.
>
> FWIW, some time when you have time, take your GMCMH to a empty part of a
> parking lot. Stop somewhere out of the way. Then, turning the steering
> wheel,
> crank the wheel all of the way either left or right. Put coach in gear and
> go forward 1/4 to 1/2 of a circle. Stop, put it in park and get out and
> look at the 4 rear wheel/tires. It is shocking how much those bogie arms
> and tires bend/squirm to accommodate a turn. / | \ Front tires don't
> react
> nearly as extreme as rears. So, every time you turn a corner, you are
> really working those sidewalls. IMO, with that kind of squirm, this is why
> most
> blow-outs occur on the rear as those sidewalls are consistantly being
> bent/streatched to their limits. So, I think we need to be running a well
> made/engineered tire that is capable of handling this abuse. When I park
> my coach for the night or for that matter, any period of time, if I had just
> turned the wheel a little, I will point the wheels straight forward, then
> pull forward and back 2-3 times just to take the bend/squirm out of the
> tires. Just what I do. (JWID)
>
> Hope this helps. :p
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
*John Phillips*
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359542 is a reply to message #359523] |
Sat, 17 October 2020 21:32 |
stu@97381.com, Emery
Messages: 232
Registered: June 2020
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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John
I do it your way and it was worked well for me for the last 39 years that I have owned the GMC.
Emery Stora
> On Oct 17, 2020, at 11:14 AM, John Phillips via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Is there an advantage to doing as you suggested rather than just replace
> the fronts and move everything back a position?
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 9:12 AM Larry via Gmclist
> wrote:
>
>> This is a repost of something I wrote last December. Might be worth
>> repeating.
>>
>> I have put the coach on a 6 yr replacement plan. 2 tires every two years.
>> Seems the front tires wear the fastest. Then it seems the mid axle wears
>> next. and the rear axle is just along for the ride and wear the least.
>> When the front wear to a point where traction may be compromised or reach 4
>> yrs
>> old, I move them to mid axle. Mid axle rims get new tires and moved to the
>> rear. Rear tires get moved to the front. Do this every two years, so I'm
>> only laying out money for two at a time every two years. We also put on
>> about 10 - 14 k miles every year. So by the time replace two 6yr old tires,
>> they have between 30-42K miles on them. They have now timed out with as
>> many miles as I can get out of them and still safely run them. This way,
>> oldest tires are 6yrs, followed by 4 yrs and 2yrs. I've actually got one
>> wheel...the passenger side mid axle that is slightly toed in and wears
>> faster
>> than all of the others. But it has become not worth the effort to correct
>> the slight toe problem on that wheel, because the tire there times out
>> before it is worn below the wear bars. This all works for me running
>> Michelin Defender LTX-MS tires. If the coach will stand still for more than
>> a
>> couple of weeks, I tire cover them as I do not have inside storage.
>>
>> The hard part is getting into that replacement management scheme. You may
>> have to replace a set a year or two earlier or later to get the rotation
>> right. I was able to do it when I bought an off-brand set of tires that
>> tread separated. Two of them at two years use and another two at 4 years.
>> Just
>> worked out for me. The problem with off-brand tires is that they were
>> regionally available, so when they went bad while traveling south, I was not
>> able to get to a shop that carried the brand to make the adjustment. The
>> one time I could get to a shop that carried them, it was far enough out of
>> the way that it would have cost me more in gas to get there than the cost
>> of the replacement tire. JMHO, but now I use only Michelin LTXMS, and have
>> never had a problem with them. To me, the peace of mind is worth the extra
>> money for the Brand Name.
>>
>> I also take the best of the two 6 yr old tires and move it to the spare.
>> Requires having same size rim on spare as the other 6 on the coach. That way
>> the spare is never more than 8 yrs old.
>>
>> FWIW, some time when you have time, take your GMCMH to a empty part of a
>> parking lot. Stop somewhere out of the way. Then, turning the steering
>> wheel,
>> crank the wheel all of the way either left or right. Put coach in gear and
>> go forward 1/4 to 1/2 of a circle. Stop, put it in park and get out and
>> look at the 4 rear wheel/tires. It is shocking how much those bogie arms
>> and tires bend/squirm to accommodate a turn. / | \ Front tires don't
>> react
>> nearly as extreme as rears. So, every time you turn a corner, you are
>> really working those sidewalls. IMO, with that kind of squirm, this is why
>> most
>> blow-outs occur on the rear as those sidewalls are consistantly being
>> bent/streatched to their limits. So, I think we need to be running a well
>> made/engineered tire that is capable of handling this abuse. When I park
>> my coach for the night or for that matter, any period of time, if I had just
>> turned the wheel a little, I will point the wheels straight forward, then
>> pull forward and back 2-3 times just to take the bend/squirm out of the
>> tires. Just what I do. (JWID)
>>
>> Hope this helps. :p
>> --
>> Larry
>> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
>> Menomonie, WI.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Phillips*
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359549 is a reply to message #359505] |
Sun, 18 October 2020 03:38 |
Scott Nutter
Messages: 782
Registered: January 2015
Location: Houston/San Diego
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Since I am getting flat spots on the most aft tire, I would hate to put the new tires there and chance more flat spots on a brand new tire. From front to back works for me. And thanks.
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, Dave Lenzi super duty mid axle disc brakes, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359552 is a reply to message #359551] |
Sun, 18 October 2020 08:42 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Larry,
The 4-bag and quad-bag systems undoubtedly minimize pole-valuting by
eliminating the air bag connection between the leading and trailing
suspension arms. But, they DO NOT PREVENT pole vaulting. That's caused by
the reaction from braking forces being applied upward on the bogie by the
center wheels' suspension arms. Only the reaction arm systems translate
those forces into less harmful directions. So, isolated air bags offer
only minimal improvement of rear wheel adhesion.
Ken H.
On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:16 AM Larry via Gmclist
wrote:
> Scott Nutter wrote on Sun, 18 October 2020 03:38
>> Since I am getting flat spots on the most aft tire, I would hate to put
> the new tires there and chance more flat spots on a brand new tire. From
>> front to back works for me. And thanks.
>
> HI Scott.
> I see by your sig file that you are running the Applied Quad bag system.
> That system should be minimizing flat spotting by not allowing the pole
> vaulting that stock and other systems allow. Other forum members out
> there...correct me if I'm wrong , but IMO you should be looking at why that
> 3rd
> axle is skidding and find a way to correct it. JMHO
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359554 is a reply to message #359505] |
Sun, 18 October 2020 11:05 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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With the buy 2 plan you leave 25% money on the table. Cooper has buy 3 get one free right now. Or when buying 6 or 7 they simply take 25% off. No discount or free tire buying just 2.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359557 is a reply to message #359505] |
Sun, 18 October 2020 12:30 |
Scott Nutter
Messages: 782
Registered: January 2015
Location: Houston/San Diego
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Larry,
It was 100% my fault for the flat spots. I recently flushed and bled the brakes, and adjusted the rear shoes. I must of over adjusted the most aft shoes too much, for they were locking up while braking at times. I have found one flat spot, but I still haven’t taken the tires off yet. There is still a chance it might be a bubble in the tread, but it is a Michelin LTX. So I would not expect one.
I’ll have to chalk it up as a expensive lesson!!
Thanks, Scott.
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, Dave Lenzi super duty mid axle disc brakes, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
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| Re: Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359558 is a reply to message #359557] |
Sun, 18 October 2020 13:34 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Scott Nutter wrote on Sun, 18 October 2020 12:30Larry,
It was 100% my fault for the flat spots. I recently flushed and bled the brakes, and adjusted the rear shoes. I must of over adjusted the most aft shoes too much, for they were locking up while braking at times. I have found one flat spot, but I still haven’t taken the tires off yet. There is still a chance it might be a bubble in the tread, but it is a Michelin LTX. So I would not expect one.
I’ll have to chalk it up as a expensive lesson!!
Thanks, Scott.
Scott,
I hear ya....been there...exactly there, when I went to the Lenzi mid axle brakes. Actually had to disconnect the 3rd axle until I changed out the Sully bag system for a used 4 bag. Hooked up the 3rd axle now and I haven't slid it yet. But then I haven't had a real hard breaking yet either. We shall see.
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359576 is a reply to message #359559] |
Sun, 18 October 2020 19:11 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Larry,
If you'll help me remember, the next time we're to meet, I'll bring along
(IF I can find it) the wooden mockup I made to demonstrate with & without
reaction arms. Once seen, it's obvious.
Ken H.
On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 2:43 PM Larry via Gmclist
wrote:
> Ken Henderson wrote on Sun, 18 October 2020 08:42
>> Larry,
>>
>> The 4-bag and quad-bag systems undoubtedly minimize pole-valuting by
>> eliminating the air bag connection between the leading and trailing
>> suspension arms. But, they DO NOT PREVENT pole vaulting. That's caused
> by
>> the reaction from braking forces being applied upward on the bogie by the
>> center wheels' suspension arms. Only the reaction arm systems translate
>> those forces into less harmful directions. So, isolated air bags offer
>> only minimal improvement of rear wheel adhesion.
>>
>> Ken H.
>
> Thanks Ken. I've been trying, ever since the reaction system came out to
> wrap my head around the forces that make the reaction system work. My pea
> brain just will not compute it. Maybe some day we can sit down with pencil
> and paper and you...or someone....can explain in simple terms how it
> works.
>
> In the mean time, the Harrison 4bag made a BIG difference over the Sully
> system in terms of lockup of that 3rd axle. JWIT
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359600 is a reply to message #359577] |
Mon, 19 October 2020 12:42 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
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Senior Member |
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It took me a while to figure out how it all works but then a light finally came on and it all came together. All it does is drive the braking action directly into the chassis through the reaction arm instead of trying to get the braking action through the control arm/tire combo. The caliper is connected directly to the chassis instead of the control arm permitting this to work. Probably not too clear but I tried.
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359602 is a reply to message #359600] |
Mon, 19 October 2020 13:20 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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The braking effort is transferred from trying to lift the suspension off
the pavement, to rotational force that is applied to the frame of the
coach. This makes the frame bear down on the wheels & tires, providing more
force in the downward direction. Plants the tires more firmly, and prevents
lockup of the brakes until they all lock up. Clear as mud, right?
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 10:43 AM Hal StClair via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> It took me a while to figure out how it all works but then a light finally
> came on and it all came together. All it does is drive the braking action
> directly into the chassis through the reaction arm instead of trying to
> get the braking action through the control arm/tire combo. The caliper is
> connected directly to the chassis instead of the control arm permitting
> this to work. Probably not too clear but I tried. :p
> Hal
> --
> "I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own
> mind, except you happen to be insane."
>
> 1977 Royale 101348,
>
> 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
>
>
>
> 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
>
> Rio Rancho, NM
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: Tire change out. Correct rotation sequence.... [message #359606 is a reply to message #359505] |
Mon, 19 October 2020 16:00 |
TR 1
Messages: 348
Registered: August 2015
Location: DFW
Karma: -7
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Senior Member |
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Scott,
If your flat spotted tires are still "good" (ie: not aged out or overly worn, and the "flat spots" are not overly deep) you may want to see if any tire shops around your area have a tire lathe. Tire lathes are most commonly used these days for shaving race tires, as some full tread depth race tires will not be able to shed heat due to the tread depth and chunk out...
However, tire lathes can also be used to "true up" a flat spotted tire.
I've used this on a pair of flat spotted race tires before, and it worked well in that application.... Got several more weekends out of a pair of tires that would have otherwise been trash.
Cost about $30 bucks a tire, iirc.... Not a common tool in most tire shops, but you may be able to find a shop with one if you ask around your area...
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
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