Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na (Starter does not engage nor headlights)
No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355056] |
Sat, 23 May 2020 20:12 |
gumboguy
Messages: 12 Registered: May 2020
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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My dad and I are having a heck of a time with a no crank condition. Turning the key only activates what sounds like the battery combiner clicking above the batteries on the firewall. There's 2 of 3 batteries that say 12 volts, a new starter. I've jumped the purple wire at the bottom of the steering column to bypass the safety switch. Still no power to the starter solenoid. Also, I meter around 12 volts at the starter and jumped the solenoid with a screwdriver to successful engagement of the starter solenoid and starter. We good there.
I removed and cleaned the big jones plug and slot connections that goe to the back of the fuse cluster. Since the cleaning there, some idiot lights come on at the dash where they didn't come on before I cleaned up the plug. I've located the red wire that goes down to the starter solenoid from that plug and wire harness and that wire does not get electricity when the key is turned like it should. I surmised the fuse panel to be the culprit because all the fuses meter for continuity fine. So maybe there is another ignition fuse somewheres?
I've tried to jump start with a Ram pick up and nothing.
Any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance!
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Re: No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355057 is a reply to message #355056] |
Sat, 23 May 2020 21:06 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629 Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Sir, above the neutral safety switch with the purple wires toward the steering wheel is the ignition switch. It has 2 screws , loosen a little and slide switch toward floor and retighten. Could try repositioning tilt column also.
gumboguy wrote on Sat, 23 May 2020 21:12My dad and I are having a heck of a time with a no crank condition. Turning the key only activates what sounds like the battery combiner clicking above the batteries on the firewall. There's 2 of 3 batteries that say 12 volts, a new starter. I've jumped the purple wire at the bottom of the steering column to bypass the safety switch. Still no power to the starter solenoid. Also, I meter around 12 volts at the starter and jumped the solenoid with a screwdriver to successful engagement of the starter solenoid and starter. We good there.
I removed and cleaned the big jones plug and slot connections that goe to the back of the fuse cluster. Since the cleaning there, some idiot lights come on at the dash where they didn't come on before I cleaned up the plug. I've located the red wire that goes down to the starter solenoid from that plug and wire harness and that wire does not get electricity when the key is turned like it should. I surmised the fuse panel to be the culprit because all the fuses meter for continuity fine. So maybe there is another ignition fuse somewheres?
I've tried to jump start with a Ram pick up and nothing.
Any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance!
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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Re: [GMCnet] No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355058 is a reply to message #355057] |
Sat, 23 May 2020 21:11 |
powwerjon
Messages: 849 Registered: March 2013
Karma: -2
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Might I suggest that you look at this:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gmc-cranking-improve-for-free/p34378-neutral-start-safety-switch-issues.html
J.R. Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMCGL Tech Editor
GMC Eastern States Charter Member
GMCMI
78 GMC Buskirk 29.5’ Stretch
75 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
> On May 23, 2020, at 10:06 PM, Charles Boyd via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Sir, above the neutral safety switch with the purple wires toward the steering wheel is the ignition switch. It has 2 screws , loosen a little and
> slide switch toward floor and retighten. Could try repositioning tilt column also.
>
>
>
>
>
> gumboguy wrote on Sat, 23 May 2020 21:12
>> My dad and I are having a heck of a time with a no crank condition. Turning the key only activates what sounds like the battery combiner clicking
>> above the batteries on the firewall. There's 2 of 3 batteries that say 12 volts, a new starter. I've jumped the purple wire at the bottom of the
>> steering column to bypass the safety switch. Still no power to the starter solenoid. Also, I meter around 12 volts at the starter and jumped the
>> solenoid with a screwdriver to successful engagement of the starter solenoid and starter. We good there.
>>
>> I removed and cleaned the big jones plug and slot connections that goe to the back of the fuse cluster. Since the cleaning there, some idiot
>> lights come on at the dash where they didn't come on before I cleaned up the plug. I've located the red wire that goes down to the starter solenoid
>> from that plug and wire harness and that wire does not get electricity when the key is turned like it should. I surmised the fuse panel to be the
>> culprit because all the fuses meter for continuity fine. So maybe there is another ignition fuse somewheres?
>>
>> I've tried to jump start with a Ram pick up and nothing.
>>
>> Any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance!
>
>
> --
> C. Boyd
> 76 Crestmont
> East Tennessee
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [GMCnet] No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355061 is a reply to message #355058] |
Sat, 23 May 2020 22:02 |
jimk
Messages: 6734 Registered: July 2006 Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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What is the battery voltage? need yo be 13+
On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 7:11 PM John Wright via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Might I suggest that you look at this:
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gmc-cranking-improve-for-free/p34378-neutral-start-safety-switch-issues.html
>
> J.R. Wright
> GMC Great Laker MHC
> GMCGL Tech Editor
> GMC Eastern States Charter Member
> GMCMI
> 78 GMC Buskirk 29.5’ Stretch
> 75 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
> Michigan
>
>
>> On May 23, 2020, at 10:06 PM, Charles Boyd via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Sir, above the neutral safety switch with the purple wires toward the
> steering wheel is the ignition switch. It has 2 screws , loosen a little
> and
>> slide switch toward floor and retighten. Could try repositioning tilt
> column also.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> gumboguy wrote on Sat, 23 May 2020 21:12
>>> My dad and I are having a heck of a time with a no crank condition.
> Turning the key only activates what sounds like the battery combiner
> clicking
>>> above the batteries on the firewall. There's 2 of 3 batteries that say
> 12 volts, a new starter. I've jumped the purple wire at the bottom of the
>>> steering column to bypass the safety switch. Still no power to the
> starter solenoid. Also, I meter around 12 volts at the starter and jumped
> the
>>> solenoid with a screwdriver to successful engagement of the starter
> solenoid and starter. We good there.
>>>
>>> I removed and cleaned the big jones plug and slot connections that goe
> to the back of the fuse cluster. Since the cleaning there, some idiot
>>> lights come on at the dash where they didn't come on before I cleaned
> up the plug. I've located the red wire that goes down to the starter
> solenoid
>>> from that plug and wire harness and that wire does not get electricity
> when the key is turned like it should. I surmised the fuse panel to be the
>>> culprit because all the fuses meter for continuity fine. So maybe there
> is another ignition fuse somewheres?
>>>
>>> I've tried to jump start with a Ram pick up and nothing.
>>>
>>> Any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance!
>>
>>
>> --
>> C. Boyd
>> 76 Crestmont
>> East Tennessee
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Re: No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355065 is a reply to message #355056] |
Sun, 24 May 2020 04:27 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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What I am hearing is you do not have +12 volts on the little wire at the starter solenoid when the key is turned to start. Is this true? Also I do not understand is what two wires you jumpered at the solenoid to get it to crank. Was it the small wire to the big (about 2 ga) + lead going to the battery?
When you installed the starter on which of the two terminals did you put the little (about 12 ga) wire on. There is a good chance you put it on the wrong one.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Re: [GMCnet] No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355078 is a reply to message #355065] |
Sun, 24 May 2020 13:13 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501 Registered: October 2011 Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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I have also witness that the key was not rotated far enough to engage
starter.
On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 3:28 AM Ken Burton via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> What I am hearing is you do not have +12 volts on the little wire at the
> starter solenoid when the key is turned to start. Is this true? Also I do
> not understand is what two wires you jumpered at the solenoid to get it to
> crank. Was it the small wire to the big (about 2 ga) + lead going to the
> battery?
>
> When you installed the starter on which of the two terminals did you put
> the little (about 12 ga) wire on. There is a good chance you put it on the
> wrong one.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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Re: [GMCnet] No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355091 is a reply to message #355088] |
Sun, 24 May 2020 17:30 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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A fully charged lead acid cell @ 70° f. at a s.g. corrected for sea level
in an ideal
state of charge is 2.2 Volts D.C. Multiply that by 6 cells, and you come
up with 13.2 volts. Older batteries that have been in service awhile, won't
measure that high.
But, your charging voltage needs to be higher than that for those
little electrons to replenish those lost through use. So, 12.4 volts is a
low state of charge. Just saying.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sun, May 24, 2020, 3:01 PM John R. Lebetski via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> 12.0V is 70% discharged battery state. 12.66V is fully charged. BIG
> difference.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
>
>
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Re: No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355103 is a reply to message #355056] |
Mon, 25 May 2020 07:29 |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277 Registered: June 2008 Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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You also mention in your title that you have no headlights either, but your have chassis battery voltage.
There is a fusible like that all power to the chassis goes through... including lights and ignition (starter solenoid too). It looks like about a #12 wire going from the chassis Battery Terminal Block on the aluminum plate to the large terminal on the horn relay to the upper right of the terminal block.
Check that you have power at the horn relay terminal. If you have no voltage there, but you have voltage at the Battery Terminal Block, then the fusible link wire is open. This is a special fuse wire, so don't replace it with regular wire. Replacements are available at the auto store. Wiring diagram shows it as being a #16 fusible link wire.
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC. 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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Re: No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355110 is a reply to message #355103] |
Mon, 25 May 2020 11:35 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Do the easy first - make sure the solenoid energize wire is on the correct little terminal on the starter ass'y. There are often two, if you have HEI one is unused. The correct terminal is the one it's almost impossible to get to. BTDT.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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Re: [GMCnet] No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355117 is a reply to message #355078] |
Mon, 25 May 2020 18:35 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Johnny,
I did the same thing a couple of months back. My "helper" installed the starter and put the wire on the wrong terminal. It took about 30 seconds to diagnose and about 5 minutes for him to move it. I do not have wheel liners installed so it is easy access.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Re: [GMCnet] No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355131 is a reply to message #355061] |
Tue, 26 May 2020 08:42 |
gumboguy
Messages: 12 Registered: May 2020
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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While my dad's meter is fairly old, it's set up for construction work, not automotive so the DC side is a little harder to read with these tick marks on the sweeper scale not particularly easy to read. Seems like a solid 12 but could easily be 13 too when each tick on the scale does not represent 1 volt at a time. Make sense? And using a full size truck battery with jumper cables would have overcome a lower than 13v host battery on the RV, no?
Thank you for chiming in.
quote title=jimk wrote on Sat, 23 May 2020 22:02]What is the battery voltage? need yo be 13+
On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 7:11 PM John Wright via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Might I suggest that you look at this:
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gmc-cranking-improve-for-free/p34378-neutral-start-safety-switch-issues.html
>
> J.R. Wright
> GMC Great Laker MHC
> GMCGL Tech Editor
> GMC Eastern States Charter Member
> GMCMI
> 78 GMC Buskirk 29.5’ Stretch
> 75 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
> Michigan
>
>
>> On May 23, 2020, at 10:06 PM, Charles Boyd via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Sir, above the neutral safety switch with the purple wires toward the
> steering wheel is the ignition switch. It has 2 screws , loosen a little
> and
>> slide switch toward floor and retighten. Could try repositioning tilt
> column also.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> gumboguy wrote on Sat, 23 May 2020 21:12
>>> My dad and I are having a heck of a time with a no crank condition.
> Turning the key only activates what sounds like the battery combiner
> clicking
>>> above the batteries on the firewall. There's 2 of 3 batteries that say
> 12 volts, a new starter. I've jumped the purple wire at the bottom of the
>>> steering column to bypass the safety switch. Still no power to the
> starter solenoid. Also, I meter around 12 volts at the starter and jumped
> the
>>> solenoid with a screwdriver to successful engagement of the starter
> solenoid and starter. We good there.
>>>
>>> I removed and cleaned the big jones plug and slot connections that goe
> to the back of the fuse cluster. Since the cleaning there, some idiot
>>> lights come on at the dash where they didn't come on before I cleaned
> up the plug. I've located the red wire that goes down to the starter
> solenoid
>>> from that plug and wire harness and that wire does not get electricity
> when the key is turned like it should. I surmised the fuse panel to be the
>>> culprit because all the fuses meter for continuity fine. So maybe there
> is another ignition fuse somewheres?
>>>
>>> I've tried to jump start with a Ram pick up and nothing.
>>>
>>> Any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance!
>>
>>
>> --
>> C. Boyd
>> 76 Crestmont
>> East Tennessee
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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[/quote]
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Re: No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355137 is a reply to message #355099] |
Tue, 26 May 2020 09:09 |
gumboguy
Messages: 12 Registered: May 2020
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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RF_Burns wrote on Sun, 24 May 2020 21:27So jumping the starter solenoid will crank the engine and the only click you hear comes from up front above the batteries... maybe the combiner.
Pops put a new combiner on, same issue.
So that tells use the starter is working but the solenoid is not.
The solenoid engages, motor spins both on the bench and installed.
Have checked for solenoid power from the switch at the smaller solenoid terminal?
There's no power to the solenoid when the key is turned. Using a screwdriver to bridge the terminals gets the solenoid and starter to engage as intended, but the key doesnt.
Also some solenoids have 2 small terminals... the second one was used to power the points ignition system with a full 12v while cranking. If you have one of these solenoids and connected the cranking power to the wrong terminal, the solenoid will not pull in.
This issue existed after years of successful operation. Then it failed intermittently and eventually stopped. The starter terminals were all connected correctly before the issue started and the terminals are connected correctly otherwise the starter would not crank.
If you have cranking power to the correct terminal, then you must have a faulty starter solenoid.
I faulty solenoid is not at issue here. That would mean that the old starter soloenoid was bad, the new solenoid is bad and that the ignition wire going from the key to the terminal on the solenoid is energized when the key is turned. So, no.
Thank you for your assistance.
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Re: No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355140 is a reply to message #355137] |
Tue, 26 May 2020 09:33 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186 Registered: January 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Do what Chuck Boyd suggested, adjust the ignition switch on the lower column below the dash.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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Re: [GMCnet] No cranking issue, please advise 78 Birchaven 454 carb na [message #355141 is a reply to message #355129] |
Tue, 26 May 2020 10:28 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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You have been chasing this long enough.
Right now, do not worry if the voltage is 12.2 or 12.8 volts. When you turn the key the solenoid should click. If it is not doing it, then go get a reliable meter or better yet a 12 volt automotive test light.
https://www.harborfreight.com/612v-circuit-tester-with-5-ft-lead-63603.html?_br_psugg_q=12+volt+tester
Look at the wiring diagram and start diagnosing the problem. Forget adjusting things until you prove with your meter or test light the absence or presence of +12 volts at the various points along the circuit.
You have already determined the absence of +12 at the solenoid on the small wire. So back up from there until you find the =12 volts.
If you do not have the wiring diagram go to www.bdub.net and download the diagram for your year coach.
http://www.bdub.net/wirediagrams/
You should be able to find this problem with a test light or meter and a diagram in 30 minutes or less. Once you find the failing component we can find out what is wrong with that component.
I am looking at the diagram right now. It says:
1. the wire on the solenoid is 12 ga. purple and goes to the neutral safety switch.
2. from the neutral safety switch the circuit then goes back on another 12 ga. purple wire goes to the ignition switch.
3. going back from the ignition switch the circuit goes on a red 12 ga. wire to a terminal on the horn relay located under the passenger side hood. This is the same terminal where the fusible link black 16 ga. wire is located.
4. The circuit then goes through the fusible link wire to the "Battery Pick Up Junction Block" which is 4 to 6 inches away from the horn relay terminal.
That that is the entire circuit. I do not care if you start at the "Battery Pick Up Junction Block" and work forward or start a the solenoid terminal and work backwards. Either way should lead you to where the circuit is open / failing.
Keep in mind that you may now have more than one failure because you have been removing plugs and adjusting switches. That is why we say diagnose first and prove the failure before trying randomly to fix something.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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