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Stupid question about breaker boxes and circuit loads. [message #346566] Sat, 17 August 2019 19:07 Go to next message
6cuda6 is currently offline  6cuda6   Canada
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So i have a real stupid question about circuit breaker boxes and circuit loads....as i stated before im not a household electrician i am a vehicle technician so please bare with me....

Question.....i thought the sum of all the circuits could not be more than the "main" or feed...so if you had a main feed of 30amps your circuits tied into the box could not be more than that.

The reason i ask is i have a 30amp main but 7 other circuits ranging from 15 amp to 20....so a/c is on 20 the other 6 are 15. Now i know that they usually arent all on at one time but if you combine the A/C and fridge i gather you'd pop the main breaker like this coach will.

What am i missing? What is the coach missing or has been changed....learn me something new today friends!



Rich Mondor, Brockville, ON 77 Hughes 2600

[Updated on: Sat, 17 August 2019 19:07]

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Re: Stupid question about breaker boxes and circuit loads. [message #346567 is a reply to message #346566] Sat, 17 August 2019 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
habbyguy is currently offline  habbyguy   United States
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Yep, you're right, and that's normal (though not all main breakers are 30 amp).

Look at your house's breaker box, and you'll see the same thing. If you add up all the individual breakers (other than the main), you'll end up with a lot bigger number than the main breaker is rated for. That's fine, since what you really want to do is to prevent the mains coming into your house from bursting into flames.

And FWIW, it's the same in a car, where you have a big fuse protecting a host of circuits that collectively can draw a LOT more amps than the main fuse could supply.

The end result is safe - no circuit, including the mains, are going to be overloaded with the properly sized breaker box design. Just because you COULD turn on everything in the coach at once doesn't mean it was designed to let you do that without popping the main breaker.


Mark Hickey Mesa, AZ 1978 Royale Center Kitchen
Re: Stupid question about breaker boxes and circuit loads. [message #346568 is a reply to message #346567] Sat, 17 August 2019 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
6cuda6 is currently offline  6cuda6   Canada
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habbyguy wrote on Sat, 17 August 2019 20:14
Yep, you're right, and that's normal (though not all main breakers are 30 amp).

Look at your house's breaker box, and you'll see the same thing. If you add up all the individual breakers (other than the main), you'll end up with a lot bigger number than the main breaker is rated for. That's fine, since what you really want to do is to prevent the mains coming into your house from bursting into flames.

And FWIW, it's the same in a car, where you have a big fuse protecting a host of circuits that collectively can draw a LOT more amps than the main fuse could supply.

The end result is safe - no circuit, including the mains, are going to be overloaded with the properly sized breaker box design. Just because you COULD turn on everything in the coach at once doesn't mean it was designed to let you do that without popping the main breaker.
Thanks for the explination Mark


Rich Mondor, Brockville, ON 77 Hughes 2600
Re: Stupid question about breaker boxes and circuit loads. [message #346570 is a reply to message #346566] Sat, 17 August 2019 21:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rick Staples is currently offline  Rick Staples   United States
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Rich Mondor wrote: "if you combine the A/C and fridge i gather you'd pop the main breaker like this coach will."

Rich, I gather you have a non-GMC finished coach, eg Coachman or the like. But even a little 30 amp main breaker should easily run a roof A/C and a refrigerator at the same time. Roof A/C takes about 15 amps (except at start-up), and the refer should only take a few amps, whether it's the old AC/DC Norcold compressor type or the more common Propane/Electric absorbtion type. If you're sure nothing else is pulling power and these two things are popping your main breaker, I'd check for 1) voltage drop from an undersized extension or shore power cord, or 2) a bad main breaker. (Yes, they can wear out if tripped many times.)
FWIW, I commonly run my refer, buzz box, and one roof A/C on a 30 amp circuit, via a 100' extension cord to my barn, but it's a big 6AWG cord. I have also run both roof A/Cs on a 30 amp service until the park manager yelled at me for running up his electric bill. (When does 30 amp service not allow you 30 amps? At the Royal Gorge KOA!)
I have an AC voltmeter in my coach, and usually shed load if it gets down to 100 volts.
HTH


Rick Staples, '75 Eleganza, Johnstown, CO "Advice is a dangerous gift, even from the Wise to the Wise, and all paths may run ill." -Tolkien
Re: Stupid question about breaker boxes and circuit loads. [message #346571 is a reply to message #346570] Sun, 18 August 2019 05:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
6cuda6 is currently offline  6cuda6   Canada
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Rick Staples wrote on Sat, 17 August 2019 22:59
Rich Mondor wrote: "if you combine the A/C and fridge i gather you'd pop the main breaker like this coach will."

Rich, I gather you have a non-GMC finished coach, eg Coachman or the like. But even a little 30 amp main breaker should easily run a roof A/C and a refrigerator at the same time. Roof A/C takes about 15 amps (except at start-up), and the refer should only take a few amps, whether it's the old AC/DC Norcold compressor type or the more common Propane/Electric absorbtion type. If you're sure nothing else is pulling power and these two things are popping your main breaker, I'd check for 1) voltage drop from an undersized extension or shore power cord, or 2) a bad main breaker. (Yes, they can wear out if tripped many times.)
FWIW, I commonly run my refer, buzz box, and one roof A/C on a 30 amp circuit, via a 100' extension cord to my barn, but it's a big 6AWG cord. I have also run both roof A/Cs on a 30 amp service until the park manager yelled at me for running up his electric bill. (When does 30 amp service not allow you 30 amps? At the Royal Gorge KOA!)
I have an AC voltmeter in my coach, and usually shed load if it gets down to 100 volts.
HTH
You are correct its a Hughes coach.

Im in the process of changing the shore cable as the wires were a little green from a broken cable/plug head (discovered when i went to change plug) and will change the breaker as i suspect its original (the last time it popped it didnt feel right when it reset). Once i get these things done i guess i could grab my amp clamp and check thqe actual load to see whats going on.

Thanks for the info.


Rich Mondor, Brockville, ON 77 Hughes 2600
Re: [GMCnet] Stupod question about breaker boxes and circuit loads. [message #346572 is a reply to message #346566] Sun, 18 August 2019 05:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rich Kinas is currently offline  Rich Kinas   United States
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So the breakers are meant to protect the wiring, keep it from melting and
starting a fire. So you can have a main cable of 40amps, with a main
breaker of 30amps. Your instantaneous load, if it exceeds 30 amps should
trip the breaker. (I say should because old breakers that do not exercised
every once in a while have been known to stick from time to time, which is
why I open and close all my breakers at least once a year. This may or may
not help but it does make me feel better.) The amount of load that the
30amp breaker is servicing cannot exceed 30amps in total without the
breaker tripping. Although some breakers take into consideration inrush
current and will allow an over-current for a second or two (not enough time
to damage the wire). Just remember that breakers are there to protect the
wiring, to that end if you had a 30amp main breaker, you could have 3 15amp
breakers that provide power to say a frig, A/C unit, and heater and as long
as none exceed 15amps they will not trip their individual breakers and as
long as the sum of their amps is less than 30 they will not trip the main
30amp breaker. Everything works and no wiring is overloaded. The issue that
I see is that many people think that if a wall outlet is available to plug
into that it should carry the load they want to plug into it. I try to
explain that somebody could design a system that way however it would be
extreme overkill and be very costly.

Rich Kinas
1976 Eleganza II
Orlando, FL


On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 8:22 PM tonka6cuda6--- via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:

> So i have a real stupid question about circuit breaker boxes and circuit
> loads....as i stated before im not a household electrician i am a vehicle
> technician so please bare with me....
>
> Question.....i thought the sum of all the circuits could not be more than
> the "main" or feed...so if you had a main feed of 30amps your circuits tied
> into the box could not be more than that.
>
> The reason i ask is i have a 30amp main but 7 other circuits ranging from
> 15 amp to 20....so a/c is on 20 the other 6 are 15. Now i know that they
> usually arent all on at one time but if you combine the A/C and fridge i
> gather you'd pop the main breaker like this coach will.
>
> What am i missing? What is the coach missing or has been changed....learn
> me something new today friends!
>
>
> --
> Rich Mondor,
>
> Brockville, ON
>
> 77 Hughes 2600
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Rich Kinas 1976 Elaganza II Orlando, FL
Re: Stupid question about breaker boxes and circuit loads. [message #346577 is a reply to message #346566] Sun, 18 August 2019 09:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Rich,

This is all much more simple than you might expect.

If you have to, draw a block diagram with breakers and branches noted. Any breaker should protect the smaller wire size attached.

So, If you have a 8-8-6-8 SJO shore power cable, it will be plugging a 14-50 receptacle with a 2*50 breaker. But it is only good for 40 amps, so it has to end at a 2*40amp breaker.

That 2*40 breaker feeds the buss bars in the box that are probably good for 100amps.

The branch circuits will all be #12 or #14 AWG and therefore should be fed by 20 and 15 amp breakers.

One word of caution if you are going to go into the main box with a vengeance. Be aware that there is a neutral and an safety ground, and they are not the same as in a dwelling. There should be bars for both and neither should be bonded to the box itself. The real safety ground (Green) should be be bonded to the either the ground at the generator frame or the shore power source. This is necessary to preclude a "Hot Skin" condition where the entire coach has a voltage that is above ground. This can be a dangerous condition.

Oh, if you are going to pull in any new 120V circuits, look for marine wire that is like three conductor Rolex, but the conductors are stranded. While being stranded makes termination more involved, it is much easier to pull it into strange places.

Matt



Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Stupid question about breaker boxes and circuit loads. [message #346578 is a reply to message #346566] Sun, 18 August 2019 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RF_Burns is currently offline  RF_Burns   Canada
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Matt,

Reading your answer "Be aware that there is a neutral and an safety ground, and they are not the same as in a dwelling. There should be bars for both and neither should be bonded to the box itself. The real safety ground (Green) should be be bonded to the either the ground at the generator frame or the shore power source. This is necessary to preclude a "Hot Skin" condition where the entire coach has a voltage that is above ground."

Are you saying the ground from the shore cable should be kept electrically isolated from the coach body? That is what I'm reading anyway. The ground bar in my OEM electrical box is fastened directly to the box while the Neutral bar is isolated from the box and is not connected to the ground bar. The Neutral and Ground should be connected at the source of power of course. But I believe the ground cable of the shore power should be connected (bonded) to the coach frame and body. The ground wire should also be connected to the case (box) of every appliance (A/C) and electrical outlet as well as the outlet box. Otherwise what is going to protect you if a "Hot Skin" condition does occur?

Maybe I just read it wrong?


Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
Re: Stupid question about breaker boxes and circuit loads. [message #346583 is a reply to message #346578] Sun, 18 August 2019 12:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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RF_Burns wrote on Sun, 18 August 2019 11:53
Matt,

Reading your answer "Be aware that there is a neutral and an safety ground, and they are not the same as in a dwelling. There should be bars for both and neither should be bonded to the box itself. The real safety ground (Green) should be be bonded to the either the ground at the generator frame or the shore power source. This is necessary to preclude a "Hot Skin" condition where the entire coach has a voltage that is above ground."

Are you saying the ground from the shore cable should be kept electrically isolated from the coach body? That is what I'm reading anyway. The ground bar in my OEM electrical box is fastened directly to the box while the Neutral bar is isolated from the box and is not connected to the ground bar. The Neutral and Ground should be connected at the source of power of course. But I believe the ground cable of the shore power should be connected (bonded) to the coach frame and body. The ground wire should also be connected to the case (box) of every appliance (A/C) and electrical outlet as well as the outlet box. Otherwise what is going to protect you if a "Hot Skin" condition does occur?

Maybe I just read it wrong?
Bruce,

I am glad that you read it and didn't understand.
The way I wrote it was wrong.
The safety ground should get bonded to the coach by way of the box. It is the neutral only that should remain isolated.

Thanks

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Stupid question about breaker boxes and circuit loads. [message #346589 is a reply to message #346583] Sun, 18 August 2019 14:05 Go to previous message
6cuda6 is currently offline  6cuda6   Canada
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Thanks fhe info and the lesson guys....its nice to learn new things Smile

Power cord is replaced....going to throw a couple new breakers in there tomorrow and then break out the amp clamp to see whats what.

Next will be new converter and new fuse block.


Rich Mondor, Brockville, ON 77 Hughes 2600
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