Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] More new engine follies
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346392 is a reply to message #346391] |
Tue, 13 August 2019 12:16   |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Not only yes, but, hell yes. BLUE LOCTITE, ONLY. If you use red, and I have
anything to do with loosening those bolts, I will be a very unhappy
technician. Prone to use the top rung of the charging ladder.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or.
On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 10:02 AM THOMAS R WHITTON via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Is the lock washer on the inner bolt necessary if using Loktite?
>
> Tom Whitton
> Paducah, Ky
> 26 ft updated GMC
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346401 is a reply to message #346391] |
Tue, 13 August 2019 19:14 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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THOMAS R WHITTON wrote on Tue, 13 August 2019 12:33Is the lock washer on the inner bolt necessary if using Loktite?
Tom Whitton
I know that I am going to be disagreeing with some, but the conventional SAE split washer lock washers will be of little value with the Gr.12 (aka MS20K) DHHCS (Double hex head cap screws) in this application. Those lock washers work only when they can get a bite into both the fastener and the body. The hardness of the MS20K DHHCS is about 75Rc. A file is only 80Rc. So, not much chance there. But, if you do not pull the fasteners to full tension (aka torque) your ass is in line for a big disappointment. Loktite is advised, but be sure to use the cleaner.
I have never observed one of these fasteners yielding during assembly. None the less. I never reuse then. They are so close to proof load and they have just about zero yield curve. (See Below)
Because I am a little paranoid. (OK, seriously paranoid) I carry a collection of the MS 20K DHHCS, the correct socket and a torque wrench as part of the coach's standard kit. (Please note: We have a 23 and storage is a premium.) The big assed socket for the outer end is usually available somewhere.
In the yet to be published account of the adventure this spring, I had to replace the Stbd (right) drive axle on the flat of the very friendly GMC owner Duane Webber in Ellorie (?) SC. I was very glad to be there, but that is about a two/three beer story on its own. If you run into him, thank him for me.
This application should not be taken lightly. A failure here could ruin several days of excursion if you are lucky.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346402 is a reply to message #346401] |
Tue, 13 August 2019 19:28 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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There are times the bolt will hit the final drive housing ad the washer
does avoid that.
On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 5:22 PM Matt Colie via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> THOMAS R WHITTON wrote on Tue, 13 August 2019 12:33
>> Is the lock washer on the inner bolt necessary if using Loktite?
>>
>> Tom Whitton
>
> I know that I am going to be disagreeing with some, but the conventional
> SAE split washer lock washers will be of little value with the Gr.12 (aka
> MS20K) DHHCS (Double hex head cap screws) in this application. Those lock
> washers work only when they can get a bite into both the fastener and the
> body. The hardness of the MS20K DHHCS is about 75Rc. A file is only
> 80Rc. So, not much chance there. But, if you do not pull the fasteners to
> full
> tension (aka torque) your ass is in line for a big disappointment.
> Loktite is advised, but be sure to use the cleaner.
>
> I have never observed one of these fasteners yielding during assembly.
> None the less. I never reuse then. They are so close to proof load and they
> have just about zero yield curve. (See Below)
>
> Because I am a little paranoid. (OK, seriously paranoid) I carry a
> collection of the MS 20K DHHCS, the correct socket and a torque wrench as
> part of
> the coach's standard kit. (Please note: We have a 23 and storage is a
> premium.) The big assed socket for the outer end is usually available
> somewhere.
>
> In the yet to be published account of the adventure this spring, I had to
> replace the Stbd (right) drive axle on the flat of the very friendly GMC
> owner Duane Webber in Ellorie (?) SC. I was very glad to be there, but
> that is about a two/three beer story on its own. If you run into him, thank
> him for me.
>
> This application should not be taken lightly. A failure here could ruin
> several days of excursion if you are lucky.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346406 is a reply to message #346402] |
Tue, 13 August 2019 20:51 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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The lock washers fitted on those 12 point special bolts are just as special
as the bolts. I agree with Matt most of the time, but not in this
situation. Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean that the WHOLE WORLD
isn't out to get you. (Grin)
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
On Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 5:29 PM Jim Kanomata via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> There are times the bolt will hit the final drive housing ad the washer
> does avoid that.
>
> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 5:22 PM Matt Colie via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> THOMAS R WHITTON wrote on Tue, 13 August 2019 12:33
>>> Is the lock washer on the inner bolt necessary if using Loktite?
>>>
>>> Tom Whitton
>>
>> I know that I am going to be disagreeing with some, but the conventional
>> SAE split washer lock washers will be of little value with the Gr.12 (aka
>> MS20K) DHHCS (Double hex head cap screws) in this application. Those
> lock
>> washers work only when they can get a bite into both the fastener and the
>> body. The hardness of the MS20K DHHCS is about 75Rc. A file is only
>> 80Rc. So, not much chance there. But, if you do not pull the fasteners
> to
>> full
>> tension (aka torque) your ass is in line for a big disappointment.
>> Loktite is advised, but be sure to use the cleaner.
>>
>> I have never observed one of these fasteners yielding during assembly.
>> None the less. I never reuse then. They are so close to proof load and
> they
>> have just about zero yield curve. (See Below)
>>
>> Because I am a little paranoid. (OK, seriously paranoid) I carry a
>> collection of the MS 20K DHHCS, the correct socket and a torque wrench as
>> part of
>> the coach's standard kit. (Please note: We have a 23 and storage is a
>> premium.) The big assed socket for the outer end is usually available
>> somewhere.
>>
>> In the yet to be published account of the adventure this spring, I had to
>> replace the Stbd (right) drive axle on the flat of the very friendly GMC
>> owner Duane Webber in Ellorie (?) SC. I was very glad to be there, but
>> that is about a two/three beer story on its own. If you run into him,
> thank
>> him for me.
>>
>> This application should not be taken lightly. A failure here could ruin
>> several days of excursion if you are lucky.
>>
>> Matt
>> --
>> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
>> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
>> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
>> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346409 is a reply to message #346391] |
Tue, 13 August 2019 22:00 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Hi Tom. Yes and yes.
The OEM bolts were shouldered and the threads did not go all the way up the bolts and without the extra thick lock washers that would thread out before clamping tight. If you use the replacement bolts that are threaded all the way to the head without the thick lock washers you can hit the housing.. they are special lock washers and are there for a reason. New Lock washers and locktite and 70lb torque.
THOMAS R WHITTON wrote on Tue, 13 August 2019 12:33Is the lock washer on the inner bolt necessary if using Loktite?
Tom Whitton
Paducah, Ky
26 ft updated GMC
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346420 is a reply to message #346413] |
Wed, 14 August 2019 09:24 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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The intended high-collar lock washers are designed for these loads and I’ve
never seen them open up.
Also, they provide just a bit more bolt between the head and the threads.
This is where the bolt stretches elastically under tensioning, and it’s
that elastic strain that keeps them from ever losing tension under load.
Loss of tension is what allows them to back out and get loose, just as with
spokes on a bicycle wheel.
I believe the high tensioning torque is there to cause any internal
stresses to yield and these be relieved. These can be microscopic but can
contribute to fatigue failures. Tensioning close to proof load actually
prevents fatigue in bolts not loaded in tension (except from tightening),
which these are not. The tightest these bolts ever are is just sitting
there after torquing them down. They are loaded in pure shear, but it’s the
clamping friction that carries the load.
So, the lock washer doesn’t work by biting into the bolt, it works by
preventing any loss of tension in use, which keeps the bolts from backing
out.
Rick “all structures are elastic” Denney
On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 9:26 AM Mike Hamm via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> All all costs don't use split lock washers.
> Under high load they tent to open up.
> --
> 1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
>
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--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346424 is a reply to message #346391] |
Wed, 14 August 2019 09:50 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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If the clamping tightness is such that the plate doesn't move relative to the CV plate, the bolts are in tension. Should the two plates move, then the bolts are in shear. I used blue LocTite <tm> on mine at 60 ft-lbs and they haven't moved since I got the coach. I figured the thick locks were there for a reason, and the Fastener Room at Coker's had a boxful so I used them.
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346427 is a reply to message #346424] |
Wed, 14 August 2019 10:05 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Johnny, I should have said the structure is loaded in shear, not tension.
Therefore, there is no structural tension load on the bolts, in addition to
their tightening tension. That’s why they can be tightened to near proof
load.
Engineers often state that bolts are loaded in shear when they mean that
structures are loaded in shear. Any bolted connection that uses holes large
enough not to be an interference fit carry their loads by clamping
friction.
I’m not opposed to Loctite by any means, though I do wonder how that
changes the torque requirements. I am opposed to using Loctite as an excuse
to avoid tightening them to spec, in the false notion that the bolts can’t
take it. I’ve heard of many loosened drive axles, but I’ve never heard of
broken bolts during or after torquing, if they were the proper
high-strength bolts.
Rick “the factory didn’t use Loctite” Denney
On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 10:53 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> If the clamping tightness is such that the plate doesn't move relative to
> the CV plate, the bolts are in tension. Should the two plates move, then
> the bolts are in shear. I used blue LocTite on mine at 60 ft-lbs and
> they haven't moved since I got the coach. I figured the thick locks were
> there for a reason, and the Fastener Room at Coker's had a boxful so I
> used them.
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346429 is a reply to message #346427] |
Wed, 14 August 2019 10:31 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Never seen ANY broken CV joint bolts, but I have seen a whole bunch of them
come loose and fall out on the road, PARTICULARLY on the drivers side of
the coach.
If I encounter a really "grungy" coach, I liberally clean that area
with Brake Kleen and chase the threads with a thread chaser tap. Then a
follow up spray with carb cleaner, followed by compressed air. Then, new
bolts and the special lock washers, with blue loctite. Torque to spec. (65
- 70) foot pounds. Makes me cringe to put that much torque on that little
bolt, but, they are supposed to be a one time use deal.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 8:06 AM Richard Denney via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Johnny, I should have said the structure is loaded in shear, not tension.
> Therefore, there is no structural tension load on the bolts, in addition to
> their tightening tension. That’s why they can be tightened to near proof
> load.
>
> Engineers often state that bolts are loaded in shear when they mean that
> structures are loaded in shear. Any bolted connection that uses holes large
> enough not to be an interference fit carry their loads by clamping
> friction.
>
> I’m not opposed to Loctite by any means, though I do wonder how that
> changes the torque requirements. I am opposed to using Loctite as an excuse
> to avoid tightening them to spec, in the false notion that the bolts can’t
> take it. I’ve heard of many loosened drive axles, but I’ve never heard of
> broken bolts during or after torquing, if they were the proper
> high-strength bolts.
>
> Rick “the factory didn’t use Loctite” Denney
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 10:53 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> If the clamping tightness is such that the plate doesn't move relative to
>> the CV plate, the bolts are in tension. Should the two plates move, then
>> the bolts are in shear. I used blue LocTite on mine at 60 ft-lbs
> and
>> they haven't moved since I got the coach. I figured the thick locks were
>> there for a reason, and the Fastener Room at Coker's had a boxful so I
>> used them.
>> --
>> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>> Braselton, Ga.
>> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
>> in hell
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> --
> '73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
> Northern Virginia
> Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346445 is a reply to message #346391] |
Wed, 14 August 2019 16:16 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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https://www.gmcrvparts.com/product-p/gm8-006-14-180.htm
On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 2:12 PM Jim Kanomata wrote:
> Chuck,
> The Flow Kooler is now the Robert Shaw and they do work better than the
> other brands.
> We sell and stock many of them, 180/195.
>
> On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 1:54 PM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> I hied myself to Advance and borrowed their pressure test kit. Surprise,
>> surprise, won't fit a GMC. The direct cap adapter is too small in diameter
>> - I suspect it's to be used on newer cars with metric small caps..... the
>> ears are a quarter of an inch too close together. The adapter which plugs
>> into the cap hole and expands is too tall to fit. I am of the opinion
>> that the radiator is going to have to come out, and if I can drop it enough
>> without disconnecting the hoses, I can test ther system tomorrow as it
>> comes out. Failing that it will be necessary to plug the upper hose and
>> adapt
>> the tester into the radiator opening with the cap in place. It's too
>> dam' hot out to mess further with it right now, heat index is an even 100.
>>
>> Getting the radiator full is going to be a problem.
>>
>> --johnny
>> --
>> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>> Braselton, Ga.
>> I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
>> in hell
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346511 is a reply to message #346391] |
Fri, 16 August 2019 08:56 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Also the new bolts from McMaster have the usual shipping oil on them which should probably have a blast of carb/brake solvent before the thread locking chemical application. Not sure on JimKs correct shouldered bolts but observed on the McMaster.
(Notice how I got through all that without using any ™️ names?)
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346529 is a reply to message #346511] |
Fri, 16 August 2019 16:58 |
cadelec
Messages: 303
Registered: September 2011
Location: Brisbane Australia
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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when i replaced my cv boots i couldnt get the bolts and washers as i am in australia . my local bolt guy supplied me with 6 point allen head set screws and nord lock washers so far done 3000 miles .
any one else had experience thith the nord lock washers https://www.nord-lock.com/nord-lock/products/washers/
Trevor
Brisbane Australia
Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores)
71 Cadillac Eldo Convert
58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
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| Re: [GMCnet] More new engine follies [message #346550 is a reply to message #346529] |
Sat, 17 August 2019 07:38 |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
Karma: -2
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Senior Member |
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I’ve used the nord-lock washers on high HP VWs on the inner cvj flange. They work well. I got the idea from some Porsche guys who have used them for years to keep the CVJ bolts from coming loose.
www.nord-lock.com
Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'
> On Aug 16, 2019, at 5:58 PM, Trevor Pordage via Gmclist wrote:
>
> when i replaced my cv boots i couldnt get the bolts and washers as i am in australia . my local bolt guy supplied me with 6 point allen head set
> screws and nord lock washers so far done 3000 miles .
> any one else had experience thith the nord lock washers https://www.nord-lock.com/nord-lock/products/washers/
> --
> Trevor
> Brisbane Australia
> Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores)
> 71 Cadillac Eldo Convert
> 58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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