Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » no washers or lock washers (old foreign car mechanic lack of knowledge-experience)
| no washers or lock washers [message #345283] |
Sun, 14 July 2019 14:37  |
Jack Ramsey
Messages: 82
Registered: December 2012
Location: Tulare, CA
Karma: 1
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I know this seems like a stupid question, but my 75 Palm Beach 455 has very few flat washers or lock washers in the engine bay. (except on the fan shroud) My years with German cars, and climbing radio towers, we had flat and lock washers on EVERYTHING. I went out and bought a bunch of spare washers, just in case, and now upon re-assembly, from the water pump out, I am wondering if this is overkill and even might be sacrificing reliability, by having less thread into the cast iron and other assemblies. Yes this is my first American car real work, and you would think at 66, I would know, but I don't. Porsche 8mm nuts (13 mm socket) had average of 18 ft lbs of torque, I'm really not used to this, it is a whole different world.
Thanks,
Jack
Jack Ramsey
Tulare, CA
TZE165V101526
1975 Palm Beach
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| Re: no washers or lock washers [message #345284 is a reply to message #345283] |
Sun, 14 July 2019 14:39  |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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On the Porsche, are not those going into an aluminum casting as opposed to cast iron? I find blue LocTite <tm> works better than a lock anyway.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] no washers or lock washers [message #345288 is a reply to message #345283] |
Sun, 14 July 2019 15:37 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Jack,
Flat washers are primarily to spread the force applied to a joint by the
fasteners; as such, they're most useful on materials softer than the
fastener or on especially brittle materials. They can also allow slight
movement between the fastened items.
Lock washers, of the split-ring type primarily, are intended to inhibit
loosening of fasteners used in especially vibration-prone locations: If
the joint causes the fastener to begin to loosen, the sharp edges at the
split in the washer will tend to cut into the two surfaces against which it
bears, reducing further loosening.
A flat washer should NEVER be used beneath a lock washer because when the
lock washer "cuts into" the flat washer, the flat washer will just move
rather than inhibiting loosening.
On a very rigid structure like an engine, lock washers are not needed
because there is little likelihood of relative motion between parts secured
with adequately tightened fasteners. And there's always the possibility of
spring lock washers breaking and becoming loose "foreign objects" in the
engine. Now on aluminum engine parts, it may be necessary to use flat
washers to protect the soft surfaces, or to use lock washers to compensate
for thermal expansion/contraction.
Do whatever the manufacturer did/recommended. :-)
Ken H.
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 3:41 PM Jack Ramsey via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> I know this seems like a stupid question, but my 75 Palm Beach 455 has
> very few flat washers or lock washers in the engine bay. (except on the fan
> shroud) My years with German cars, and climbing radio towers, we had flat
> and lock washers on EVERYTHING. I went out and bought a bunch of spare
> washers, just in case, and now upon re-assembly, from the water pump out,
> I am wondering if this is overkill and even might be sacrificing
> reliability, by having less thread into the cast iron and other
> assemblies. Yes this is my first American car real work, and you would
> think at 66, I
> would know, but I don't. Porsche 8mm nuts (13 mm socket) had average of 18
> ft lbs of torque, I'm really not used to this, it is a whole different
> world.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jack
> --
> Jack Ramsey
> Tulare, CA
> TZE165V101526
> 1975 Palm Beach
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: no washers or lock washers [message #345289 is a reply to message #345283] |
Sun, 14 July 2019 15:49 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Jack Ramsey wrote on Sun, 14 July 2019 15:37I know this seems like a stupid question, but my 75 Palm Beach 455 has very few flat washers or lock washers in the engine bay. (except on the fan shroud) My years with German cars, and climbing radio towers, we had flat and lock washers on EVERYTHING. I went out and bought a bunch of spare washers, just in case, and now upon re-assembly, from the water pump out, I am wondering if this is overkill and even might be sacrificing reliability, by having less thread into the cast iron and other assemblies. Yes this is my first American car real work, and you would think at 66, I would know, but I don't. Porsche 8mm nuts (13 mm socket) had average of 18 ft lbs of torque, I'm really not used to this, it is a whole different world.
Thanks,
Jack
Jack,
SAE lock washers will seldom do any harm, but in high load situations they are quite useless. An SAE lockwasher (the kind with a sheared angled ends) is supposed to work two ways:
First is that it is a spring to keep tension in the fastener should it have the opportunity to loose tension.
Second is that those two sharp edges are suppose to grab something and prevent the rotation of the fastener.
The only problem we (ASTM Bolting Technology Committee) found was that during an uninstrumented assembly (no torque wrench or other), the compression of the spring in the lock washer did, in some cases, cause the assembling technician to over estimate the achieved tension in the fastener. (Non-techese - He didn't get the screw as tight as he thought he did.)
So, put in lockwashers as long as you don't sacrifice engagement for it.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] no washers or lock washers [message #345293 is a reply to message #345289] |
Sun, 14 July 2019 16:14 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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I would strongly advise you to read the parts manual. Every nut, bolt,
stud, flat washer, lock washer, etc is clearly identified in the
descriptions, and drawings. The way the GMC factory installed it. Then go
from there.
Jim Hupy
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 1:52 PM Matt Colie via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Jack Ramsey wrote on Sun, 14 July 2019 15:37
>> I know this seems like a stupid question, but my 75 Palm Beach 455 has
> very few flat washers or lock washers in the engine bay. (except on the fan
>> shroud) My years with German cars, and climbing radio towers, we had
> flat and lock washers on EVERYTHING. I went out and bought a bunch of spare
>> washers, just in case, and now upon re-assembly, from the water pump
> out, I am wondering if this is overkill and even might be sacrificing
>> reliability, by having less thread into the cast iron and other
> assemblies. Yes this is my first American car real work, and you would
> think at 66,
>> I would know, but I don't. Porsche 8mm nuts (13 mm socket) had average
> of 18 ft lbs of torque, I'm really not used to this, it is a whole different
>> world.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jack
>
> Jack,
>
> SAE lock washers will seldom do any harm, but in high load situations they
> are quite useless. An SAE lockwasher (the kind with a sheared angled ends)
> is supposed to work two ways:
> First is that it is a spring to keep tension in the fastener should it
> have the opportunity to loose tension.
> Second is that those two sharp edges are suppose to grab something and
> prevent the rotation of the fastener.
>
> The only problem we (ASTM Bolting Technology Committee) found was that
> during an uninstrumented assembly (no torque wrench or other), the
> compression
> of the spring in the lock washer did, in some cases, cause the assembling
> technician to over estimate the achieved tension in the fastener.
> (Non-techese - He didn't get the screw as tight as he thought he did.)
>
> So, put in lockwashers as long as you don't sacrifice engagement for it.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: no washers or lock washers [message #345294 is a reply to message #345283] |
Sun, 14 July 2019 16:28 |
Jack Ramsey
Messages: 82
Registered: December 2012
Location: Tulare, CA
Karma: 1
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Member |
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Thanks everyone!
I will add flat washers to the new aluminum fancy water pump I got from Jim K, and move on, while looking for the parts manual.
Thanks,
Jack
Jack Ramsey
Tulare, CA
TZE165V101526
1975 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] no washers or lock washers [message #345295 is a reply to message #345293] |
Sun, 14 July 2019 16:29 |
6cuda6
Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019
Karma: -6
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Senior Member |
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I agree with Jim here....every fastener has a location and a purpose.
The company i work for actually doesnt use any split type lock washer at all on any of the vehicles we build because its been proven that they dont actually work very well.....there is a really interesting engineering document and video on them being worse than using none at all.
Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
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| Re: [GMCnet] no washers or lock washers [message #345296 is a reply to message #345293] |
Sun, 14 July 2019 16:27 |
Dolph Santorine
Messages: 1236
Registered: April 2011
Location: Wheeling, WV
Karma: -41
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Senior Member |
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Jim:
Seven plus years of looking at the shop manuals, and not once did I crack open the Parts manual.
I did now, and wow. Thank you, Jim.
Matt, the front frame I dropped off has the relay lever bolt with a lock washer. That’s not what it shows in the book.
Now for the fastener mavens - the bolt on my relay lever bottoms before squeezing the assembly properly, allowing the Dave Lenzi lever to move up and down a little more than .100
So, two grade 8 washers, or do I fire up the lathe?
Dolph
DE AD0LF
Wheeling, West Virginia
1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission
“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"
> On Jul 14, 2019, at 5:14 PM, James Hupy via Gmclist wrote:
>
> I would strongly advise you to read the parts manual. Every nut, bolt,
> stud, flat washer, lock washer, etc is clearly identified in the
> descriptions, and drawings. The way the GMC factory installed it. Then go
> from there.
> Jim Hupy
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 1:52 PM Matt Colie via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> Jack Ramsey wrote on Sun, 14 July 2019 15:37
>>> I know this seems like a stupid question, but my 75 Palm Beach 455 has
>> very few flat washers or lock washers in the engine bay. (except on the fan
>>> shroud) My years with German cars, and climbing radio towers, we had
>> flat and lock washers on EVERYTHING. I went out and bought a bunch of spare
>>> washers, just in case, and now upon re-assembly, from the water pump
>> out, I am wondering if this is overkill and even might be sacrificing
>>> reliability, by having less thread into the cast iron and other
>> assemblies. Yes this is my first American car real work, and you would
>> think at 66,
>>> I would know, but I don't. Porsche 8mm nuts (13 mm socket) had average
>> of 18 ft lbs of torque, I'm really not used to this, it is a whole different
>>> world.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jack
>>
>> Jack,
>>
>> SAE lock washers will seldom do any harm, but in high load situations they
>> are quite useless. An SAE lockwasher (the kind with a sheared angled ends)
>> is supposed to work two ways:
>> First is that it is a spring to keep tension in the fastener should it
>> have the opportunity to loose tension.
>> Second is that those two sharp edges are suppose to grab something and
>> prevent the rotation of the fastener.
>>
>> The only problem we (ASTM Bolting Technology Committee) found was that
>> during an uninstrumented assembly (no torque wrench or other), the
>> compression
>> of the spring in the lock washer did, in some cases, cause the assembling
>> technician to over estimate the achieved tension in the fastener.
>> (Non-techese - He didn't get the screw as tight as he thought he did.)
>>
>> So, put in lockwashers as long as you don't sacrifice engagement for it.
>>
>> Matt
>> --
>> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
>> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
>> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
>> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] no washers or lock washers [message #345302 is a reply to message #345288] |
Sun, 14 July 2019 17:12 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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All this "washer talk" makes me wonder about the use of internal and external "star" washers. Locking things in place physically can be concurrent with a need to ensure electrical contact remains solid and of low resistance, even (or especially) in joints that are subject to vibration or other movement. Adequate tightening would seem to "bite" into both of the mating surfaces. Use of external star washers would seem to mandate the use of bolts/screws with wide (fillister?) heads.
I will refrain in the future from using a flat washer under a lock washer of any type thanks to Colonel Ken's great explanation shown below.
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Ken Henderson via Gmclist
Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2019 15:37
To: GMC Mail List
Cc: Ken Henderson; Jack Ramsey
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] no washers or lock washers
Jack,
Flat washers are primarily to spread the force applied to a joint by the
fasteners; as such, they're most useful on materials softer than the
fastener or on especially brittle materials. They can also allow slight
movement between the fastened items.
Lock washers, of the split-ring type primarily, are intended to inhibit
loosening of fasteners used in especially vibration-prone locations: If
the joint causes the fastener to begin to loosen, the sharp edges at the
split in the washer will tend to cut into the two surfaces against which it
bears, reducing further loosening.
A flat washer should NEVER be used beneath a lock washer because when the
lock washer "cuts into" the flat washer, the flat washer will just move
rather than inhibiting loosening.
On a very rigid structure like an engine, lock washers are not needed
because there is little likelihood of relative motion between parts secured
with adequately tightened fasteners. And there's always the possibility of
spring lock washers breaking and becoming loose "foreign objects" in the
engine. Now on aluminum engine parts, it may be necessary to use flat
washers to protect the soft surfaces, or to use lock washers to compensate
for thermal expansion/contraction.
Do whatever the manufacturer did/recommended. :-)
Ken H.
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| Re: [GMCnet] no washers or lock washers [message #345313 is a reply to message #345296] |
Sun, 14 July 2019 19:25 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Hi Dolph: in the 77-78 maintenance manual supplement (3A-2 Front Suspension) it says to adjust the intermediate rod parallelism of the steering to the lower control arms by adding washers under the idler arm. Since the relay lever is on the same working plane as the idler arm I might recommend checking your parallelism and see if you need any adjustments and go from there. I would pry up and down on the relay lever to see how it effects measurements. This should tell you if you need to add washers or remove metal from bushing.
Make sure you check your tire air pressures and ride height before checking parallelism as it does effect it.
Hope this helps..
Dolph Santorine wrote on Sun, 14 July 2019 17:27Jim:
Seven plus years of looking at the shop manuals, and not once did I crack open the Parts manual.
I did now, and wow. Thank you, Jim.
Matt, the front frame I dropped off has the relay lever bolt with a lock washer. That's not what it shows in the book.
Now for the fastener mavens - the bolt on my relay lever bottoms before squeezing the assembly properly, allowing the Dave Lenzi lever to move up and down a little more than .100
So, two grade 8 washers, or do I fire up the lathe?
Dolph
DE AD0LF
Wheeling, West Virginia
1977 26' ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission
"The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"
> On Jul 14, 2019, at 5:14 PM, James Hupy via Gmclist wrote:
>
> I would strongly advise you to read the parts manual. Every nut, bolt,
> stud, flat washer, lock washer, etc is clearly identified in the
> descriptions, and drawings. The way the GMC factory installed it. Then go
> from there.
> Jim Hupy
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 1:52 PM Matt Colie via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> Jack Ramsey wrote on Sun, 14 July 2019 15:37
>>> I know this seems like a stupid question, but my 75 Palm Beach 455 has
>> very few flat washers or lock washers in the engine bay. (except on the fan
>>> shroud) My years with German cars, and climbing radio towers, we had
>> flat and lock washers on EVERYTHING. I went out and bought a bunch of spare
>>> washers, just in case, and now upon re-assembly, from the water pump
>> out, I am wondering if this is overkill and even might be sacrificing
>>> reliability, by having less thread into the cast iron and other
>> assemblies. Yes this is my first American car real work, and you would
>> think at 66,
>>> I would know, but I don't. Porsche 8mm nuts (13 mm socket) had average
>> of 18 ft lbs of torque, I'm really not used to this, it is a whole different
>>> world.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jack
>>
>> Jack,
>>
>> SAE lock washers will seldom do any harm, but in high load situations they
>> are quite useless. An SAE lockwasher (the kind with a sheared angled ends)
>> is supposed to work two ways:
>> First is that it is a spring to keep tension in the fastener should it
>> have the opportunity to loose tension.
>> Second is that those two sharp edges are suppose to grab something and
>> prevent the rotation of the fastener.
>>
>> The only problem we (ASTM Bolting Technology Committee) found was that
>> during an uninstrumented assembly (no torque wrench or other), the
>> compression
>> of the spring in the lock washer did, in some cases, cause the assembling
>> technician to over estimate the achieved tension in the fastener.
>> (Non-techese - He didn't get the screw as tight as he thought he did.)
>>
>> So, put in lockwashers as long as you don't sacrifice engagement for it.
>>
>> Matt
>> --
>> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
>> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
>> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
>> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
_______________________________________________
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: no washers or lock washers [message #345329 is a reply to message #345283] |
Mon, 15 July 2019 07:13 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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No locks on top of flats. Again I've learned something from this crew.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: no washers or lock washers [message #345339 is a reply to message #345300] |
Mon, 15 July 2019 09:32 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Jack Ramsey wrote on Sun, 14 July 2019 15:01http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/timing-chain-2fradiator-project-05-2f09/p34540-timing-chain-2fradiator.html
great photo on bolt location. Thanks Carl S
Jack
You're welcome!
I always take pictures of complicated assemblies BEFORE I take them apart. It really saved my bacon on the engine R & R. That and bagging and labeling every piece of hardware for each assembly made re-assembly a LOT easier after almost a month between taking it apart and putting it back together again.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: no washers or lock washers [message #345407 is a reply to message #345329] |
Tue, 16 July 2019 12:14 |
rjw
Messages: 697
Registered: September 2005
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Johnny Bridges wrote on Mon, 15 July 2019 08:13No locks on top of flats. Again I've learned something from this crew.
--johnny
Same here. It is intuitive when you think about it, however for me in the past I never thought much about not using flat washers or split washers. From now on I will think about the application before using either.
I've gained a lot of knowledge from this group and have also found YouTube to be helpful if you can "separate the wheat from the chaff" in both groups.
Richard
76 Palm Beach
SE Michigan
www.PalmBeachGMC.com
Roller Cam 455, TBI+EBL, 3.42 FD, 4 Bag, Macerator, Lenzi (brakes, vacuum system, front end stuff), Manny Tranny, vacuum step, Tankless + OEM water heaters.
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