Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] What fueled the fire?
| [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342267] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 16:51  |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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I'm extremely upset over what happened to Fred, and Diane. As with any car, trunk, or motorhome. For the most part. Fires comes down to electrical, gas, diesel, or propane fuels. We had a fire in our GMC. Aug 28, 1015. ( Not accident related. ) The Nebraska state fire marshal listed the cause as arson. And that I started the fire. The day after the fire. What I was looking at. And where the fire marshal said that I started the fire. Simply didn't match in my view. That's when I got interested in fire investigation methods. Fires start. Then travel up, and out from the source point. In our case. I examined the melted aluminum. Looking at clues as to temps reached, and length of time those temps lasted at those points. I marked each of those points. All point info showed that the fire started at the base of the frig. Then went looking for frig fire recalls. And found the one on our 1 year old frig.
I bring this up now. Because there just be something here. That just might save another one's life.
Their main fire damage is at the very front. Then up and to the rear. I dough that there was fire, floor penetration soon after hitting the house. That would have taken some time. Unless there was floor damage at impact. So what at the front fueled the fire. Are there things on our GMC's that we should be mindful of. Could there have been a gas line that got broken going into the house. Or was there a fuel tank at the front for the EFI fuel pumps? I think that I've heard that those tanks up front hold about a gal. The EFI systems stop gas flow if the engine stops. But did the rear low pressure pumps keep running. We can only speculate. Maybe a discussion just could save another life. Or give us some piece of mined. That we've tried our best to make our GMC's as safe as we can. Bob Dunahugh
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342271 is a reply to message #342267] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 17:26  |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
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Since the Duggar’s GMC hit a car prior to rolling into the mobile home, that first impact is most likely what initiated the fire. The impact could have compromised gas lines, propane lines, shorted battery cables, etc, etc. We probably will never know for sure.
As much as I am curious to know what caused the fire, the initial impact concerns me more since these coaches don’t offer us much in collision safety.
It is a sad day when we loose acquaintances in this fashion.
Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'
> On Apr 4, 2019, at 5:51 PM, Bob Dunahugh via Gmclist wrote:
>
> I'm extremely upset over what happened to Fred, and Diane. As with any car, trunk, or motorhome. For the most part. Fires comes down to electrical, gas, diesel, or propane fuels. We had a fire in our GMC. Aug 28, 1015. ( Not accident related. ) The Nebraska state fire marshal listed the cause as arson. And that I started the fire. The day after the fire. What I was looking at. And where the fire marshal said that I started the fire. Simply didn't match in my view. That's when I got interested in fire investigation methods. Fires start. Then travel up, and out from the source point. In our case. I examined the melted aluminum. Looking at clues as to temps reached, and length of time those temps lasted at those points. I marked each of those points. All point info showed that the fire started at the base of the frig. Then went looking for frig fire recalls. And found the one on our 1 year old frig.
> I bring this up now. Because there just be something here. That just might save another one's life.
> Their main fire damage is at the very front. Then up and to the rear. I dough that there was fire, floor penetration soon after hitting the house. That would have taken some time. Unless there was floor damage at impact. So what at the front fueled the fire. Are there things on our GMC's that we should be mindful of. Could there have been a gas line that got broken going into the house. Or was there a fuel tank at the front for the EFI fuel pumps? I think that I've heard that those tanks up front hold about a gal. The EFI systems stop gas flow if the engine stops. But did the rear low pressure pumps keep running. We can only speculate. Maybe a discussion just could save another life. Or give us some piece of mined. That we've tried our best to make our GMC's as safe as we can. Bob Dunahugh
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342272 is a reply to message #342267] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 17:25 |
Mike Kelley
Messages: 467
Registered: February 2017
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Thanks Bob D.:
For getting us all to think about MH fires and their origin! I agree - good investigation and subsequent discussions could well save lives and be a good result from a very tragic accident.
RIP Fred and Diane - We are Soo very blessed to have known you!
Mike/The Corvair a holic and Nonna Billie - his Shady Lady
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 4, 2019, at 4:51 PM, Bob Dunahugh via Gmclist wrote:
>
> I'm extremely upset over what happened to Fred, and Diane. As with any car, trunk, or motorhome. For the most part. Fires comes down to electrical, gas, diesel, or propane fuels. We had a fire in our GMC. Aug 28, 1015. ( Not accident related. ) The Nebraska state fire marshal listed the cause as arson. And that I started the fire. The day after the fire. What I was looking at. And where the fire marshal said that I started the fire. Simply didn't match in my view. That's when I got interested in fire investigation methods. Fires start. Then travel up, and out from the source point. In our case. I examined the melted aluminum. Looking at clues as to temps reached, and length of time those temps lasted at those points. I marked each of those points. All point info showed that the fire started at the base of the frig. Then went looking for frig fire recalls. And found the one on our 1 year old frig.
> I bring this up now. Because there just be something here. That just might save another one's life.
> Their main fire damage is at the very front. Then up and to the rear. I dough that there was fire, floor penetration soon after hitting the house. That would have taken some time. Unless there was floor damage at impact. So what at the front fueled the fire. Are there things on our GMC's that we should be mindful of. Could there have been a gas line that got broken going into the house. Or was there a fuel tank at the front for the EFI fuel pumps? I think that I've heard that those tanks up front hold about a gal. The EFI systems stop gas flow if the engine stops. But did the rear low pressure pumps keep running. We can only speculate. Maybe a discussion just could save another life. Or give us some piece of mined. That we've tried our best to make our GMC's as safe as we can. Bob Dunahugh
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342274 is a reply to message #342272] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 17:39 |
GatsbysCruise
Messages: 261
Registered: January 2017
Location: Waukegan, Illinois
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The GMC fuel line runs along the driver side, up over the left A frame into a COPPER line that extends from the firewall down to the left side of the radiator, along the bottom of the radiator to the right side and up about a foot. All the electricals, battery connections, are on the right side.
That copper line is rather reliable but copper is soft and the right impact will cut it. A hard enough front end collision can cut that copper fuel line along the bottom of the radiator.
GMC had a problem with the fuel connection at the carborator, it would become fragile and crack. I'm sure you know how tight it is to get to the carborator filter with the fuel line, there is little to no room to work and it is vibration intolerant. I assume a good hit can crack that line.
The fires start when fuel hits the hot manifold and headers. And as we know there are hot headers on both sides of the engine and the hot manifold on top...
I'm not sure what can be done about the copper fuel line other than trying, and I do mean TRY to run a rubber hose over it. But it is quite long, has some very serious bends and I don't think it can be done.
The carborator line is/was copper OEM (i think) and someone has come up with a braided line that is supposed to withstand the vibration better.
But there is another busy area and that would be where all the lines come together at the mechanical fuel pump. And that is right next to the header. That is all rubber hose with clamps. Also be aware that those hoses run right next to the belts that can cut the rubber like a knife.
Those are all the vulnerable places I know of, if there is a better fix, then I'm certainly interested.
slc
GatsbysCruise. \
74GMC260 Former Glacier Model style. \
Waukegan, Illinois \ Keep those MiniDiscs Spinning \ MY GREYHOUND IS FASTER THAN YOUR HONOR ROLL STUDENT \ WindowsXP-Win7-Win8.1-UBUNTU STUDIO - UBUNTU VOYAGER - Berzin Auto Center
[Updated on: Thu, 04 April 2019 17:42] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342277 is a reply to message #342267] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 18:03 |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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I've never seen copper fuel lines in a GMC. And you should never have anything but steel lines from the stock fuel pump. To the carb. Bob Dunahugh
________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 4:51 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: What fueled the fire?
I'm extremely upset over what happened to Fred, and Diane. As with any car, trunk, or motorhome. For the most part. Fires comes down to electrical, gas, diesel, or propane fuels. We had a fire in our GMC. Aug 28, 1015. ( Not accident related. ) The Nebraska state fire marshal listed the cause as arson. And that I started the fire. The day after the fire. What I was looking at. And where the fire marshal said that I started the fire. Simply didn't match in my view. That's when I got interested in fire investigation methods. Fires start. Then travel up, and out from the source point. In our case. I examined the melted aluminum. Looking at clues as to temps reached, and length of time those temps lasted at those points. I marked each of those points. All point info showed that the fire started at the base of the frig. Then went looking for frig fire recalls. And found the one on our 1 year old frig.
I bring this up now. Because there just be something here. That just might save another one's life.
Their main fire damage is at the very front. Then up and to the rear. I dough that there was fire, floor penetration soon after hitting the house. That would have taken some time. Unless there was floor damage at impact. So what at the front fueled the fire. Are there things on our GMC's that we should be mindful of. Could there have been a gas line that got broken going into the house. Or was there a fuel tank at the front for the EFI fuel pumps? I think that I've heard that those tanks up front hold about a gal. The EFI systems stop gas flow if the engine stops. But did the rear low pressure pumps keep running. We can only speculate. Maybe a discussion just could save another life. Or give us some piece of mined. That we've tried our best to make our GMC's as safe as we can. Bob Dunahugh
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342278 is a reply to message #342274] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 18:08 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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What copper line?
Someone must have replaced the steel line that GM used.
I am certain that there was no original copper line in the motorhome.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
> On Apr 4, 2019, at 5:39 PM, slc via Gmclist wrote:
>
> The GMC fuel line runs along the driver side, up over the left A frame into a COPPER line that extends from the firewall down to the left side of the
> radiator, along the bottom of the radiator to the right side and up about a foot. All the electricals, battery connections, are on the right side.
>
> That copper line is rather reliable but copper is soft and the right impact will cut it. I hard enough front end collision can cut that copper fuel
> line along the bottom of the radiator.
>
> GMC had a problem with the fuel connection at the carborator, it would become fragile and crack. I'm sure you know how tight it is to get to the
> carborator filter with the fuel line, there is little to no room to work and it is vibration intolerant. I assume a good hit can crack that line.
>
> The fires start when fuel hits the hot manifold and headers. And as we know there are hot headers on both sides of the engine and the hot manifold on
> top...
>
> I'm not sure what can be done about the copper fuel line other than trying, and I do mean TRY to run a rubber hose over it. But it is quite long, has
> some very serious bends and I don't think it can be done.
>
> The carborator line is/was copper OEM (i think) and someone has come up with a braided line that is supposed to withstand the vibration better.
>
> But there is another busy area and that would be where all the lines come together at the mechanical fuel pump. And that is right next to the header.
> That is all rubber hose with clamps. Also be aware that those hoses run right next to the belts that can cut the rubber like a knife.
>
> Those are all the vulnerable places I know of, if there is a better fix, then I'm certainly interested.
>
> slc
>
>
> --
> GatsbysCruise. \
> 74GMC260 Former Glacier Model style. \
> Waukegan, Illinois \ Keep those MiniDiscs Spinning \ MY GREYHOUND IS FASTER THAN YOUR HONOR ROLL STUDENT \ WindowsXP-Win7-Win8.1-UBUNTU STUDIO -
> UBUNTU VOYAGER - Berzin Auto Center
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342279 is a reply to message #342267] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 18:35 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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One thing we definitely should try to determine: Did the Duggers' coach
have an added vent hose leading through the firewall (on either/ both
sides). I say this because I'm convinced, after seeing John Richardson's
coach which was destroyed following a battery fire beneath the right hood,
that such a vent contributed significantly to the damage.
As many have done, some PO put a wire & plastic hose between the HVAC box
(or maybe the grille), and a hole through the firewall above the
passenger's feet. It was very obvious that the vent hose was immediately
penetrated by the flames, which then went through the plastic dash, over
the passenger's head, and along the ceiling all the way to the rear of the
coach. There was little fire damage below the beltline -- LOTS of flame
and smoke damage above it. There was relatively little damage to the
"hood" and outside of the coach forward of the firewall -- at least
compared to the interior.
So, if you have or plan a similar ventilation system Please use fire
resistant materials throughout!
Ken H.
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 5:52 PM Bob Dunahugh via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> I'm extremely upset over what happened to Fred, and Diane. As with any
> car, trunk, or motorhome. For the most part. Fires comes down to
> electrical, gas, diesel, or propane fuels. We had a fire in our GMC. Aug
> 28, 1015. ( Not accident related. ) The Nebraska state fire marshal listed
> the cause as arson. And that I started the fire. The day after the fire.
> What I was looking at. And where the fire marshal said that I started the
> fire. Simply didn't match in my view. That's when I got interested in fire
> investigation methods. Fires start. Then travel up, and out from the source
> point. In our case. I examined the melted aluminum. Looking at clues as to
> temps reached, and length of time those temps lasted at those points. I
> marked each of those points. All point info showed that the fire started at
> the base of the frig. Then went looking for frig fire recalls. And found
> the one on our 1 year old frig.
> I bring this up now. Because there just be something here. That just
> might save another one's life.
> Their main fire damage is at the very front. Then up and to the rear.
> I dough that there was fire, floor penetration soon after hitting the
> house. That would have taken some time. Unless there was floor damage at
> impact. So what at the front fueled the fire. Are there things on our GMC's
> that we should be mindful of. Could there have been a gas line that got
> broken going into the house. Or was there a fuel tank at the front for the
> EFI fuel pumps? I think that I've heard that those tanks up front hold
> about a gal. The EFI systems stop gas flow if the engine stops. But did the
> rear low pressure pumps keep running. We can only speculate. Maybe a
> discussion just could save another life. Or give us some piece of mined.
> That we've tried our best to make our GMC's as safe as we can. Bob Dunahugh
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342280 is a reply to message #342278] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 19:05 |
GatsbysCruise
Messages: 261
Registered: January 2017
Location: Waukegan, Illinois
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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-- OOPS --
I may have mistook the copper line that was used for the oil dip stick. I know that is copper
because the dealership took the old one out because it broke off, and replaced it with another
copper line.
The Gas line may be steel, my oops
slc
GatsbysCruise. \
74GMC260 Former Glacier Model style. \
Waukegan, Illinois \ Keep those MiniDiscs Spinning \ MY GREYHOUND IS FASTER THAN YOUR HONOR ROLL STUDENT \ WindowsXP-Win7-Win8.1-UBUNTU STUDIO - UBUNTU VOYAGER - Berzin Auto Center
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342282 is a reply to message #342267] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 19:37 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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In order to start a fire you need a fuel source, oxygen (air), and an ignition source. In my case the ignition source was a bad gasket on the intake manifold choke heater. They are simple to replace proactively. I have found several other engines with bad gaskets there. I suggest that you check and replace it or simply go get one just replace it. They are cheap. $2.23 from Rock Auto.
FEL-PRO 72586 {#382709}
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342283 is a reply to message #342267] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 19:46 |
GatsbysCruise
Messages: 261
Registered: January 2017
Location: Waukegan, Illinois
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Ok, what I have here is hear/say, but I'll drop it on you anyway.
I was watching some of the camper vlogs on Utube. This one site was talking about insulation. The type he was show casing
looked like metallic covered paper or cloth. He suggested that it was fire resistant.
I understand the term Fire Resistant can have a whole different meaning from Fire Proof.
Had anyone considered covering the flamable areas of the engine compartment with something like this???
This is a very difficult topic, maybe its me.
If a vehicle crashes and a fire starts, how fast does that fire grow and spread?
Gasoline is highly volitile but it needs volume to get big, right?
The second problem is you can cut the gas supply but the gas that has already escaped
the fuel line / fuel pump / fuel filter is already on fire and burning, and can spread.
If it burns the fuel line, any remaining fuel will spill out, right?
This make the situation really complicated to control.
A mist of water, not a spray, should cool the fire and fuel and put it out.
A spray could put too much water on the ground and spread the gasoline and fire making it
bigger than you started with.
If an fire proof surface, metal, paint, insulation is present, it would protect the
motorhome for a time, but it won't put the fire out, and it won't protect forever. Things
get hot and fires start else where.
Fire extinguishing systems ( gas type ) will exthinguish the fire by starving it for air,
but if the metal is still hot, as soon as the air hits the fuel, the fire re-ignites.
The down side of these systems seems to be that they don't like temperature which affects the
seals to the bottles and lets the pressure leak out.
The general consensus about dry chemical here is it really messes up anything it hits, but
it does coat the surface which can starve the fire of air and or fuel.
Water or a mist, can cool the fire so it goes out. The steam from that mist can help starve the
fire from getting air... I wonder if this should be tested as we all carry water and a pump
on the GMC's......
This seems to be a pretty complicated problem to tackle it seems.
Fuel fires, especially gasoline can be very hard to put out.
When I worked for the utility company, we had to go to Fire School, that was a while back,
but I am pretty sure I am in the ball park here on information......
slc
GatsbysCruise. \
74GMC260 Former Glacier Model style. \
Waukegan, Illinois \ Keep those MiniDiscs Spinning \ MY GREYHOUND IS FASTER THAN YOUR HONOR ROLL STUDENT \ WindowsXP-Win7-Win8.1-UBUNTU STUDIO - UBUNTU VOYAGER - Berzin Auto Center
[Updated on: Thu, 04 April 2019 19:50] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342286 is a reply to message #342267] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 19:55 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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While this is a grim time, I am heartened to see the discussion that it has started.
The coach burned, the account I read said that the occupants were unable to escape the fire.
So, the first issue to me is, where they still conscious. We have no account that gives us the final impact energy. Even belted, they may never have had a chance.
Was there some condition of the coach that made egress difficult? I do not know.
The Frahm's coach had an engine fire, they made it out. When KenB's coach burned, Laurie had time to shut it down and get out.
This does not mean that our discussion of fuel shutdown should not continue until some conclusions are reached.
At one time I wrote a number of reports of vehicle incidents with analysis for NHSTA. Fire was a very rare occurrence in vehicle incidents. I did this over forty years ago so the timing for GMC is pretty good.
Now, I need to throw in one last item. They hit a mobile home. Many mobile homes have propane systems. Many of those systems that I have seen barely meet any codes. To me, it is no stretch at all that the fuel for the fire was not from the coach.
Again, none of this is intended to dismiss the loss to the community, but if we can learn from it, the loss might not have been in vain.
With heavy heart.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342288 is a reply to message #342286] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 20:13 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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The "house" that was hit probably offered slight retardation of the coach that hit it. Stick and staple construction is notoriously flimsy. A trip through the Colaw RV salvage yard just east of Joplin will show that up tremendously.
I also wonder if the occupants even survived the impact that seems to have occurred at considerable speed. I don't have much trust in the seat belt strength of these coaches.
An unconscious person has no chance at all of escape.
Judy and I share the grief of all at this great loss.
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
'76 ex-Palm Beach
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Matt Colie via Gmclist
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 19:55
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Matt Colie
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire?
While this is a grim time, I am heartened to see the discussion that it has started.
The coach burned, the account I read said that the occupants were unable to escape the fire.
So, the first issue to me is, where they still conscious. We have no account that gives us the final impact energy. Even belted, they may never have
had a chance.
Was there some condition of the coach that made egress difficult? I do not know.
The Frahm's coach had an engine fire, they made it out. When KenB's coach burned, Laurie had time to shut it down and get out.
This does not mean that our discussion of fuel shutdown should not continue until some conclusions are reached.
At one time I wrote a number of reports of vehicle incidents with analysis for NHSTA. Fire was a very rare occurrence in vehicle incidents. I did
this over forty years ago so the timing for GMC is pretty good.
Now, I need to throw in one last item. They hit a mobile home. Many mobile homes have propane systems. Many of those systems that I have seen
barely meet any codes. To me, it is no stretch at all that the fuel for the fire was not from the coach.
Again, none of this is intended to dismiss the loss to the community, but if we can learn from it, the loss might not have been in vain.
With heavy heart.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342289 is a reply to message #342267] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 21:31 |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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I installed as much steel line as possible when I redid this last 78 Royale. Because a fire can't open them up. Fred had a Vitec EFI. And maybe a gas tank up front for the high pressure pumps. ( Was that the fuel supply for the fire? ) That 1 gallon tank up front has always concerned me. So I didn't go that route. I installed the Howell/GM system that uses the low pressure injectors. Only a few Lbs above a carb setup. They fit in my comfort zone better. Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale Iowa
________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 4:51 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: What fueled the fire?
I'm extremely upset over what happened to Fred, and Diane. As with any car, trunk, or motorhome. For the most part. Fires comes down to electrical, gas, diesel, or propane fuels. We had a fire in our GMC. Aug 28, 1015. ( Not accident related. ) The Nebraska state fire marshal listed the cause as arson. And that I started the fire. The day after the fire. What I was looking at. And where the fire marshal said that I started the fire. Simply didn't match in my view. That's when I got interested in fire investigation methods. Fires start. Then travel up, and out from the source point. In our case. I examined the melted aluminum. Looking at clues as to temps reached, and length of time those temps lasted at those points. I marked each of those points. All point info showed that the fire started at the base of the frig. Then went looking for frig fire recalls. And found the one on our 1 year old frig.
I bring this up now. Because there just be something here. That just might save another one's life.
Their main fire damage is at the very front. Then up and to the rear. I dough that there was fire, floor penetration soon after hitting the house. That would have taken some time. Unless there was floor damage at impact. So what at the front fueled the fire. Are there things on our GMC's that we should be mindful of. Could there have been a gas line that got broken going into the house. Or was there a fuel tank at the front for the EFI fuel pumps? I think that I've heard that those tanks up front hold about a gal. The EFI systems stop gas flow if the engine stops. But did the rear low pressure pumps keep running. We can only speculate. Maybe a discussion just could save another life. Or give us some piece of mined. That we've tried our best to make our GMC's as safe as we can. Bob Dunahugh
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342291 is a reply to message #342289] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 22:45 |
johnd01
Messages: 354
Registered: July 2017
Location: Sacrameot
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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It would be nice if we had a real firewall like houses have between
garages and the house. Sheetrock works by having water trapped that needs
to boil off before the fire can penetrate farther. Egress is another
problem if you are dazed or hurt/broken it is a long way back to the door
and after a collision, there may be things in the way. We are not as young
as we used to be climbing out of a burning wreck is not an activity we all
are prepared to do.
I am new here but it seems like our coaches burn easy.
I would feel safer if it was a diesel pusher.
Does anyone have access to the official accident report?
Pilots say it is not one thing that kills you but when 2 or 3 things go
wrong and the correction does not solve the problem people die.
John Phillips
75 Avion VIN A26000
Retired
Rancho Cordova, CA 95670
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:32 PM Bob Dunahugh via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
> I installed as much steel line as possible when I redid this last 78
> Royale. Because a fire can't open them up. Fred had a Vitec EFI. And maybe
> a gas tank up front for the high pressure pumps. ( Was that the fuel
> supply for the fire? ) That 1 gallon tank up front has always concerned me.
> So I didn't go that route. I installed the Howell/GM system that uses
> the low pressure injectors. Only a few Lbs above a carb setup. They fit in
> my comfort zone better. Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale Iowa
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Dunahugh
> Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 4:51 PM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: What fueled the fire?
>
> I'm extremely upset over what happened to Fred, and Diane. As with any
> car, trunk, or motorhome. For the most part. Fires comes down to
> electrical, gas, diesel, or propane fuels. We had a fire in our GMC. Aug
> 28, 1015. ( Not accident related. ) The Nebraska state fire marshal listed
> the cause as arson. And that I started the fire. The day after the fire.
> What I was looking at. And where the fire marshal said that I started the
> fire. Simply didn't match in my view. That's when I got interested in fire
> investigation methods. Fires start. Then travel up, and out from the source
> point. In our case. I examined the melted aluminum. Looking at clues as to
> temps reached, and length of time those temps lasted at those points. I
> marked each of those points. All point info showed that the fire started at
> the base of the frig. Then went looking for frig fire recalls. And found
> the one on our 1 year old frig.
> I bring this up now. Because there just be something here. That just
> might save another one's life.
> Their main fire damage is at the very front. Then up and to the rear.
> I dough that there was fire, floor penetration soon after hitting the
> house. That would have taken some time. Unless there was floor damage at
> impact. So what at the front fueled the fire. Are there things on our GMC's
> that we should be mindful of. Could there have been a gas line that got
> broken going into the house. Or was there a fuel tank at the front for the
> EFI fuel pumps? I think that I've heard that those tanks up front hold
> about a gal. The EFI systems stop gas flow if the engine stops. But did the
> rear low pressure pumps keep running. We can only speculate. Maybe a
> discussion just could save another life. Or give us some piece of mined.
> That we've tried our best to make our GMC's as safe as we can. Bob Dunahugh
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
*John Phillips*
_______________________________________________
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342292 is a reply to message #342291] |
Thu, 04 April 2019 23:00 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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There are always ways to find causes for tragedies like this. Cause and
effect is a whole field of science by itself. If that coach were built
today, much of what engineering has learned in the 40 years since would be
incorporated into its construction. But, ONE IDIOT DRIVING WHILE
DISTRACTED, can and does defeat our best interests of safety.
Truth is, we've, all lost some really good friends. Let's take the
time to pay our respects, and then take a CRITICAL eye at our own coaches.
Fires don't care who they effect. Be safe out there, please.
Jim Hupy
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 8:40 PM John Phillips via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> It would be nice if we had a real firewall like houses have between
> garages and the house. Sheetrock works by having water trapped that needs
> to boil off before the fire can penetrate farther. Egress is another
> problem if you are dazed or hurt/broken it is a long way back to the door
> and after a collision, there may be things in the way. We are not as young
> as we used to be climbing out of a burning wreck is not an activity we all
> are prepared to do.
> I am new here but it seems like our coaches burn easy.
>
> I would feel safer if it was a diesel pusher.
> Does anyone have access to the official accident report?
> Pilots say it is not one thing that kills you but when 2 or 3 things go
> wrong and the correction does not solve the problem people die.
>
> John Phillips
> 75 Avion VIN A26000
> Retired
> Rancho Cordova, CA 95670
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:32 PM Bob Dunahugh via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I installed as much steel line as possible when I redid this last 78
>> Royale. Because a fire can't open them up. Fred had a Vitec EFI. And
> maybe
>> a gas tank up front for the high pressure pumps. ( Was that the fuel
>> supply for the fire? ) That 1 gallon tank up front has always concerned
> me.
>> So I didn't go that route. I installed the Howell/GM system that uses
>> the low pressure injectors. Only a few Lbs above a carb setup. They fit
> in
>> my comfort zone better. Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale Iowa
>> ________________________________
>> From: Bob Dunahugh
>> Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 4:51 PM
>> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
>> Subject: What fueled the fire?
>>
>> I'm extremely upset over what happened to Fred, and Diane. As with any
>> car, trunk, or motorhome. For the most part. Fires comes down to
>> electrical, gas, diesel, or propane fuels. We had a fire in our GMC. Aug
>> 28, 1015. ( Not accident related. ) The Nebraska state fire marshal
> listed
>> the cause as arson. And that I started the fire. The day after the fire.
>> What I was looking at. And where the fire marshal said that I started the
>> fire. Simply didn't match in my view. That's when I got interested in
> fire
>> investigation methods. Fires start. Then travel up, and out from the
> source
>> point. In our case. I examined the melted aluminum. Looking at clues as
> to
>> temps reached, and length of time those temps lasted at those points. I
>> marked each of those points. All point info showed that the fire started
> at
>> the base of the frig. Then went looking for frig fire recalls. And found
>> the one on our 1 year old frig.
>> I bring this up now. Because there just be something here. That
> just
>> might save another one's life.
>> Their main fire damage is at the very front. Then up and to the
> rear.
>> I dough that there was fire, floor penetration soon after hitting the
>> house. That would have taken some time. Unless there was floor damage at
>> impact. So what at the front fueled the fire. Are there things on our
> GMC's
>> that we should be mindful of. Could there have been a gas line that got
>> broken going into the house. Or was there a fuel tank at the front for
> the
>> EFI fuel pumps? I think that I've heard that those tanks up front hold
>> about a gal. The EFI systems stop gas flow if the engine stops. But did
> the
>> rear low pressure pumps keep running. We can only speculate. Maybe a
>> discussion just could save another life. Or give us some piece of mined.
>> That we've tried our best to make our GMC's as safe as we can. Bob
> Dunahugh
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Phillips*
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342294 is a reply to message #342292] |
Fri, 05 April 2019 01:55 |
Inline Technologies
Messages: 11
Registered: September 2018
Karma: 1
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Junior Member |
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I don't know but I have witnessed many accidents and roll overs , and never seen a vehicle catch on fire.
It is very difficult, but always expected in the movies.
I think everyone is looking in the wrong direction.
Unless I have not seen all the info on the accident, I do not believe the coach was the culprit.
The coach hit a mobile home in the front. Most are heated with propane.
I believe the mobile home is the reason for the fire.
I don't know if we will ever know.
I wish I would have met them.
God bless and rest in peace.
Ken Kruckeberg
The Shirt Factory
806-352-9262
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy via Gmclist
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2019 11:01 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: James Hupy
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire?
There are always ways to find causes for tragedies like this. Cause and effect is a whole field of science by itself. If that coach were built today, much of what engineering has learned in the 40 years since would be incorporated into its construction. But, ONE IDIOT DRIVING WHILE DISTRACTED, can and does defeat our best interests of safety.
Truth is, we've, all lost some really good friends. Let's take the time to pay our respects, and then take a CRITICAL eye at our own coaches.
Fires don't care who they effect. Be safe out there, please.
Jim Hupy
On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 8:40 PM John Phillips via Gmclist < gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> It would be nice if we had a real firewall like houses have between
> garages and the house. Sheetrock works by having water trapped that
> needs to boil off before the fire can penetrate farther. Egress is
> another problem if you are dazed or hurt/broken it is a long way back
> to the door and after a collision, there may be things in the way. We
> are not as young as we used to be climbing out of a burning wreck is
> not an activity we all are prepared to do.
> I am new here but it seems like our coaches burn easy.
>
> I would feel safer if it was a diesel pusher.
> Does anyone have access to the official accident report?
> Pilots say it is not one thing that kills you but when 2 or 3 things
> go wrong and the correction does not solve the problem people die.
>
> John Phillips
> 75 Avion VIN A26000
> Retired
> Rancho Cordova, CA 95670
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 7:32 PM Bob Dunahugh via Gmclist <
> gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> I installed as much steel line as possible when I redid this last
>> 78 Royale. Because a fire can't open them up. Fred had a Vitec EFI.
>> And
> maybe
>> a gas tank up front for the high pressure pumps. ( Was that the
>> fuel supply for the fire? ) That 1 gallon tank up front has always
>> concerned
> me.
>> So I didn't go that route. I installed the Howell/GM system that uses
>> the low pressure injectors. Only a few Lbs above a carb setup. They
>> fit
> in
>> my comfort zone better. Bob Dunahugh 78 Royale Iowa
>> ________________________________
>> From: Bob Dunahugh
>> Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 4:51 PM
>> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
>> Subject: What fueled the fire?
>>
>> I'm extremely upset over what happened to Fred, and Diane. As with
>> any car, trunk, or motorhome. For the most part. Fires comes down to
>> electrical, gas, diesel, or propane fuels. We had a fire in our
>> GMC. Aug 28, 1015. ( Not accident related. ) The Nebraska state fire
>> marshal
> listed
>> the cause as arson. And that I started the fire. The day after the fire.
>> What I was looking at. And where the fire marshal said that I
>> started the fire. Simply didn't match in my view. That's when I got
>> interested in
> fire
>> investigation methods. Fires start. Then travel up, and out from the
> source
>> point. In our case. I examined the melted aluminum. Looking at clues
>> as
> to
>> temps reached, and length of time those temps lasted at those
>> points. I marked each of those points. All point info showed that
>> the fire started
> at
>> the base of the frig. Then went looking for frig fire recalls. And
>> found the one on our 1 year old frig.
>> I bring this up now. Because there just be something here.
>> That
> just
>> might save another one's life.
>> Their main fire damage is at the very front. Then up and to the
> rear.
>> I dough that there was fire, floor penetration soon after hitting
>> the house. That would have taken some time. Unless there was floor
>> damage at impact. So what at the front fueled the fire. Are there
>> things on our
> GMC's
>> that we should be mindful of. Could there have been a gas line that
>> got broken going into the house. Or was there a fuel tank at the
>> front for
> the
>> EFI fuel pumps? I think that I've heard that those tanks up front
>> hold about a gal. The EFI systems stop gas flow if the engine stops.
>> But did
> the
>> rear low pressure pumps keep running. We can only speculate. Maybe a
>> discussion just could save another life. Or give us some piece of mined.
>> That we've tried our best to make our GMC's as safe as we can. Bob
> Dunahugh
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Phillips*
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342295 is a reply to message #342294] |
Fri, 05 April 2019 04:40 |
GatsbysCruise
Messages: 261
Registered: January 2017
Location: Waukegan, Illinois
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I must say first, I didn't know these dear people, My heart goes out to them, their family, and all of you who knew them.
Also, I know almost nothing about the wreck but what I read, and some of my own thoughts.
I am sorry we need to look at the aftermath of such a terrible devastating event... I am sorry, I hope you all heal from this terrible loss.
I had already wrote about the fuel line config on my coach.
There is plenty of fuel line in the front, and both sides of the front sides. The fuel line crosses
the front of the coach from the driver side to the passenger side on the bottom rail of the radiator
and goes up to another hose mess at the fuel pump.
That fuel pump mess of gas hoses is VERY CLOSE to the belts. If a GMC with those gas hoses would hit
something very hard and push things around structure wise, it is very possible, in my mind, that a
hose could be pushed into that belt, I think its the AC belt, and it would not take long to be cut
and leaking.
Also if they have the carb, that fragile gas line at the carb can break.
I do understand that the engine may have been converted over to another system, but the fuel lines
would most likely have been run in the same area to get there.
We need more info, and I doubt we shall hear any of it. Unless there is someone that saw what
happened, an eye witness, we just don't know.
I read in the news that a car hit a car and a car hit the the motorhome.
Appearantly this was at an intersection????????
AND AGAIN, it is sketch, was it hit on the left side or the right side and how fast was the
motorhome going on impact?
I am guessing impact was near front left or right corner. Other than the drive train and
wheels to stop intrusion on impact, there is not much there to prevent the gas lines from being
involved.
IF the gas line was damaged and fuel began to leak in the engine compartment, there would be
little time before gasoline can flame up. And we know that GMC's have a habit now and then of
flaming up from fuel fires.
The GMC was impacted and what I read said it was turned toward the house/mobile home, and IT
TRAVELED ABOUT 100 FEET DISTANCE and IMPACTED into a structure.
AT THIS POINT, we know NOTHING.
now its all speculation
It appears the brakes may not have worked. Did the brake lines get severed during the first
collision, and brake fluid I believe burns very well also.?????
Was the driver in shock, and this can happen, Did they failed to apply the brakes?????????
I am thinking the coach started to burn either before impact of the mobile home, or very shortly
there after.
The entire front half or more of the GMC has been consumed and destroyed. Not much left but the frame.
I DON'T KNOW, everything is speculation.........
why didn't or couldn't the passengers escape the coach. Even on fire, there is some limited time.
I have presumed that the folks inside may have been unconscious on impact of the structure.
Because there is so much fire damage from the GMC, it appears to me that the GMC caught the
structure on fire.
This goes against a propane heater fire set the structure on fire theory,but if so, the structure
has to ignite which would take some time to get going. It would take
even more time before the GMC could ignite, even with gasoline fuel leaking. But after that point
the fire would grow fast.
With the structure causing the fire, there is precious little additional time more to escape the
GMC. Again, why didn't or couldn't those inside escape??
Sorry, I don't know the GMC or the layout. Does anyone know that coach, what could come loose
inside from a side or front impact and block the exit path????????
Could the side impact have torn the refrigerator or a cabinet loose and topple over?
My frig is right against the door entrance, as many coaches are. Is it possible that a frontal
collision, if hard enough, could rip that cabinet, with the frige from the wall and block the
EXIT DOOR???
Maybe we need to train ourselves to be prepared to use the large liv room windows for a emergency
ESCAPE route.
In my GMC, the refrigerator is attached by many screws. I just don't know
if it would be enough upon impact to hold it in. And keep this in mind, my RV had been rebuilt by
PO's so I don't know what is holding it together anymore. I have found some unbelievable changes that
the PO had made and needed to correct so anything is possible here...
Whatever happened, IT HAPPENED FAST.
The crash,
the GMC turned on the second cars impact and traveled across about 100 feet
The GMC impacted the structure,
the fire started
Ignition was very possibly started from fuel that may have been leaking from the first impact with the car
the impact with the structure sprayed the gasoline on hot metal surfaces and there was ignition.
I am not sure if we need to be looking at the fire source, which might be the fuel hoses, weakly or poorly connected/
stabilized fuel lines or, what could have prevented the driver/rider from escaping.
The first concern is, were there seat belts? Did the Driver and passenger get thrown into the
window on impact????? and if there were seat belts (lap), could they still hit the window, I think
without the shoulder harness, this might be possible.
The second concern is, If the riders were still conscious, WHY COULDN'T they escape???
What in a coach can be torn out of place and lay across the exit area to prevent escape??
I know we always look at the fire hazard FIRST. I think we need to look at what can become
dislodged and entrap those from escaping, if still able to...
My apologies to all of you and my heart goes out to everyone.
I am simply looking at what can prevent escape from a GMC after a catastrophic collision.
There will be many many questions about what and how it happened.
There may never be an answer.
slc
GatsbysCruise. \
74GMC260 Former Glacier Model style. \
Waukegan, Illinois \ Keep those MiniDiscs Spinning \ MY GREYHOUND IS FASTER THAN YOUR HONOR ROLL STUDENT \ WindowsXP-Win7-Win8.1-UBUNTU STUDIO - UBUNTU VOYAGER - Berzin Auto Center
[Updated on: Fri, 05 April 2019 04:53] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342296 is a reply to message #342289] |
Fri, 05 April 2019 05:45 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I have been remotely involved in two roll over burning cars. I came by just after both happened.
One was an upside down vehicle on the Dan Ryan expressway in Chicago. Lots of people around, lots of cars going by, but no one stopped. So I hopped out of my car and ran up to see if anyone was inside. The driver's window was down so I tried to get the driver out. I couldn't budge him. I found out later after the fire that he had his seat belt on. The heat quickly drove me away and in the end there were 3 people inside. They all died.
The second one I was 19 or 20 and it was late at night at an Interstate interchange. At the end of a circular exit ramp there was this car by itself and upside down burning. I got the woman driver out of it. She was either drunk passed out, or unconscious. I called the police on my ham radio and waited for the police, fire, and ambulance to arrive. While I was sitting there with the woman waiting for the ambulance, I realized this was the mother of a girl I had dated a few times. Cops, fire trucks, and ambulance eventually came and removed the woman to the hospital.
After they put out the fire they found a second person in the vehicle. It was the girl 17 or 18 that I had dated. I could not look at her. I never realized she was there. The fire was too bad on the right side that I never would have gotten her out even if I had known. It still bothered me for quite a few years after that.
Enough story telling.
Vehicles fires spread fast and put out a lot of acrid smoke. If you can put them quickly, fine. The best thing, if there is any doubt, is to run away from them as fast as you can.
I keep one AR-AFFF fire extinguisher in the propane compartment and 2 inside. I also have one bottle of CO2 for winter use.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342297 is a reply to message #342267] |
Fri, 05 April 2019 07:21 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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I remain shocked and saddened over their death. I do think a postmortem discussion of the fire can be a good thing so here are my thoughts.
I installed two (select-able from the cockpit) Airtex electric fuel pumps and assorted check valves to the carb on our 76. They were mounted outside the frame rail about 3' in front of the rear tires and protected by a 1/8" aluminum plate. New hard line ran all the way to the carb except for a couple spaces where joints were needed. Those were done with the barrier hose.
I had a oil pressure switch that would trip the fuel pump power relay and shut down the fuel pumps if oil pressure was lost. I had circuitry that would ignore the oil pressure while the engine starter was turning so the fuel pumps.
I even put in a manual override switch so I could start the engine with no oil pressure if I HAD to move the coach but had no oil pressure (think rail road tracks...middle of an intersection...etc)
What I didn't have was an inertia fuel pump shutoff. That never crossed my mind.
Ages ago, my family and I were T-boned by a drunk driver pulling out of a bar. We were in my company car, an early Ford Taurus. We were not hurt but it would not start and the police called a wrecker for me (pre-cell phone). When the wrecker arrived the guy he could tow it back to the dealer but it's not hurt that bad...I could drive it. I explained it would not start and he said, "Oh, pop the trunk." I did and he pulled a plastic handle on the side of the trunk lining. "Try it now" he said. Fired right up.
What I learned is that Ford put in an inertia switch that trips when it senses a big enough impact and shuts off the fuel. I expect the junk yards are full of them and they are not that expensive new....about 50 bucks. Today, many are tied to the airbag circuit.
Anyway, if their coach did not have one and the key was still on, then unless there was a no oil pressure shutoff, the fuel pumps would have continued to run. Since the back of the coach did not burn, I can only assume the fuel tanks themselves did not catch fire or explode.
Some folks may have done this but I bet many have not because I haven't read about it here or heard it discussed. If we still had our GMC, I'd be putting on on TODAY!
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] What fueled the fire? [message #342298 is a reply to message #342267] |
Fri, 05 April 2019 08:01 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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As someone said, we are speculating on why our friends died. Given a front impact at speed, it's likely no one was conscious - or perhaps already dead - when the coach hit the house trailer. The complete accident report and autopsy should give more clues.
In another life I interviewed fire and police chiefs in small towns. Since at the time we newlyweds lived in a house trailer I always asked. I never met a fire chief who said he put out a trailer fire - they go up like newspaper. If the people in the coach were in any way incapacitated it wouldn't be surprising that they were burnt. Given the identification methods, I doubt they ever left their seats.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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