Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ?
| [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ? [message #341805] |
Tue, 19 March 2019 08:41  |
glwgmc
Messages: 1014
Registered: June 2004
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Going the other way - using marine tin plated stranded copper wire - seems a much wiser choice to me than that failure prone aluminum stuff. With the marine wire you can down size one wire gauge to carry the same amps if you want to and the connectors will be much less prone to corrosion and failure over time. The labor involved in changing wire is much greater than the cost of the wire itself so I would think you only want to do it once.
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed & hand crafted
in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building
in historic Kerby, OR
http://jerrywork.com
+===========
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 18:52:24 -0700
From: "Stu Rasmussen (97381.com)"
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ?
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Hi all,
I am contemplating using copper clad aluminum stranded hookup wire for
retrofitting my gutted coach.
Compared to stranded copper wire it is _much_ less expensive even
considering having to upsize one wire size to compensate for the reduced
conductivity.
Solid aluminum house wiring was problematic (even using the special
Al/Cu connectors) and its use was limited after houses wired with it
started catching fire.
The copper-clad version seems safe but I am wondering if anyone here has
experience with it in rewiring automotive applications.
Thanks in advance,
Stu
Stu
Silverton, OR - W7QJ
'74 gutted Eleganza
Odd that when a house burns down, the only things left standing are the
chimney and the fireplace.
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Jerry & Sharon Work
78 Royale
Kerby, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ? [message #341833 is a reply to message #341805] |
Tue, 19 March 2019 20:16  |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
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The problem with aluminum wire in houses was thermal expansion and
contraction that caused terminals to loosen, creating hot spots. Copper
cladding does not solve that problem. Also, the copper skin will carry more
current per unit area because it has a lower resistance.
Rick “loosening terminal screws is already a problem with copper wiring in
the coach” Denney
On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 8:41 AM Gerald Work via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Going the other way - using marine tin plated stranded copper wire - seems
> a much wiser choice to me than that failure prone aluminum stuff. With the
> marine wire you can down size one wire gauge to carry the same amps if you
> want to and the connectors will be much less prone to corrosion and failure
> over time. The labor involved in changing wire is much greater than the
> cost of the wire itself so I would think you only want to do it once.
>
> Jerry Work
> The Dovetail Joint
> Fine furniture designed & hand crafted
> in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building
> in historic Kerby, OR
> http://jerrywork.com
> +===========
> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 18:52:24 -0700
> From: "Stu Rasmussen (97381.com)"
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ?
> Message-ID:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am contemplating using copper clad aluminum stranded hookup wire for
> retrofitting my gutted coach.
>
> Compared to stranded copper wire it is _much_ less expensive even
> considering having to upsize one wire size to compensate for the reduced
> conductivity.
>
> Solid aluminum house wiring was problematic (even using the special
> Al/Cu connectors) and its use was limited after houses wired with it
> started catching fire.
>
> The copper-clad version seems safe but I am wondering if anyone here has
> experience with it in rewiring automotive applications.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Stu
>
> Stu
> Silverton, OR - W7QJ
> '74 gutted Eleganza
>
> Odd that when a house burns down, the only things left standing are the
> chimney and the fireplace.
> ===========
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ? [message #341842 is a reply to message #341833] |
Wed, 20 March 2019 09:01 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Rick is correct. And use only stranded copper wire in a mobile application, unless you have access to aircraft-quality wiring.
Tin any bare wire ends under screws and solder your crimp-on terminals after crimping if you can.
These things are just like a ship at sea when you are out there away from home, stuff has to be durable to motion and flexure.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ? [message #341847 is a reply to message #341842] |
Wed, 20 March 2019 09:40 |
Stu Rasmussen
Messages: 130
Registered: January 2019
Location: Silverton, OR
Karma: 0
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OK, as the OP on this thread I think I've gotten the message.
Yes to COPPER
No to copper-clad aluminum (CCA)
Thanks to everyone for great advice!
Stu
Silverton, OR - W7QJ
'74 gutted Eleganza
On 3/20/2019 7:01 AM, Terry via Gmclist wrote:
> Rick is correct. And use only stranded copper wire in a mobile application, unless you have access to aircraft-quality wiring.
> Tin any bare wire ends under screws and solder your crimp-on terminals after crimping if you can.
> These things are just like a ship at sea when you are out there away from home, stuff has to be durable to motion and flexure.
>
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Stu Rasmussen W7QJ
Silverton, OR
'77 Birchaven
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| Re: [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ? [message #341873 is a reply to message #341805] |
Wed, 20 March 2019 20:35 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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glwgmc wrote on Tue, 19 March 2019 09:41Going the other way - using marine tin plated stranded copper wire - seems a much wiser choice to me than that failure prone aluminum stuff. With the marine wire you can down size one wire gauge to carry the same amps if you want to and the connectors will be much less prone to corrosion and failure over time. The labor involved in changing wire is much greater than the cost of the wire itself so I would think you only want to do it once.
Jerry Work
Jerry,
I don't know where you got this information, but it has big issues. Marine wire is still the same amount of copper as AWG specified wire. While USCG requires a higher temperature insulation than most common NEC specification, only allows a slightly higher ampacity. It is seldom enough to make any difference. (This is from a guy that worked as a ship's electrician, both onboard and in yards, and did work that was inspected buy USCG and ABS.) Could you down size from CCA, sure, but only if you have it in mind to use CCA anyway, and that is a real bad choice in my educated opinion.
Ampacity is really only an issue with high voltage (like ~120VAC) stuff. It works there and there only. For normal applications, you will find that 14AWG is good for 15A, 12AWG is good for 20A and 10 is good for 30A. In actual fact, by NEC code they are all capable of greater. Now, when it comes to marine, using the stranded equivalent to to an NM X-G will put you into a triplex cable (with the same conductor colors, but the ground is green and not bare.) A big no-no is trying to use household grade wiring devices. These are not acceptable for marine stranded wire. You can either go and buy these as marine ($$$) or use what amount to residential grade switches and outlets and make all the connections with properly crimped terminals. That will pass an inspection.
Now, when it comes to 12 or even 24 V (nominal) systems, the tables that you find for 2% or 10% voltage drop are garbage (IMNSO). First off, those tables are all for one direction only, so they are already wrong by a factor of two as most people read them. Then come the fact that many devices are very sensitive to supply voltage. A 2% drop, if it is calculated correctly, is 0.24V. Yes, that is about 1/4 of a volt. That may not sound like much, but in some cases it can be a real headache. There is another little snake that people miss all the time. SAE spec wire is as much as 10% less copper than AWG. So that #10 cable in our coach may not smoke at 30 amps, but it is really closer to #9AWG and will provide the associate voltage drop. This is really a joy when trying (in a newer 26) to recover the house bank from the main engine alternator.
Before the most recent depression, I made a living making owner's older racing boats into performance cruisers. I always quoted the work as labor plus copper. This so they would understand that about a quarter of the job cost was the copper that would still be there when I was done. I would steadily remind them that they only had to buy the copper once.
Well that is enough of this stuff for an evening and after a full road day.
Matt - Holding up at the north Georgia Welcome Center. Tomorrow is Florida - Too late to register.
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ? [message #341884 is a reply to message #341873] |
Thu, 21 March 2019 00:23 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
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Senior Member |
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Not to throw a bug into the ointment but the NEC required Non-metallic sheathed cable (Romex, solid copper) to be used in RV's. It was always a bone of contention that the stranded 'boat' cable was better for the purpose but the NEC didn't recognize it as so. Go figure...
Then again, it's been a while and my certs have expired and I haven't keep up on the codes so maybe things are different today.
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ? [message #341897 is a reply to message #341884] |
Thu, 21 March 2019 09:25 |
Stu Rasmussen
Messages: 130
Registered: January 2019
Location: Silverton, OR
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I am now confused . . .
Does the NEC Romex requirement apply only to the 120 VAC wiring or to
ALL coach wiring including the 12 VDC?
I'm the OP and was asking about 12 volt wiring using CCA - which the
consensus is 'DO NOT' and so I won't.
But Romex for all wiring? That sounds odd.
Stu
Silverton, OR - W7QJ
'74 gutted Eleganza
On 3/20/2019 10:23 PM, Hal StClair via Gmclist wrote:
> Not to throw a bug into the ointment but the NEC required Non-metallic sheathed cable (Romex, solid copper) to be used in RV's. It was always a bone
> of contention that the stranded 'boat' cable was better for the purpose but the NEC didn't recognize it as so. Go figure...
> Then again, it's been a while and my certs have expired and I haven't keep up on the codes so maybe things are different today.
> Hal
>
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Stu Rasmussen W7QJ
Silverton, OR
'77 Birchaven
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| Re: [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ? [message #341898 is a reply to message #341884] |
Thu, 21 March 2019 09:30 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Hal StClair wrote on Thu, 21 March 2019 01:23Not to throw a bug into the ointment but the NEC required Non-metallic sheathed cable (Romex, solid copper) to be used in RV's. It was always a bone of contention that the stranded 'boat' cable was better for the purpose but the NEC didn't recognize it as so. Go figure...
Then again, it's been a while and my certs have expired and I haven't keep up on the codes so maybe things are different today.
Hal
Hal,
Now (in the daylight) the memory is firing that you are correct about that. When I worked at Thetford and one of my compatriots was assembling a all electric motorhome (this was 1973 and it was LA batteries only), we ran into this. NEC said that as it can be a residence (that little badge near the door) it will be wired like a residence. When I asked the engineers at the group we were working with why they didn't fight that, they didn't care. RVs had an expected life of ten years and the warranty was a lot less than that. And, this household stuff was way cheaper and easier to assemble.
Now there is the another issue thata we can use, if anybody should care. Judges in the police states like New York and Commiefornia have ruled that any RV is a vehicle (as it has wheels) and is not entitled to the any of constitutional protections and can be searched without a warrant requiring probable cause. Let's not go there now.....
Matt - heading into Atlanta.
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) coach wiring ? [message #341904 is a reply to message #341873] |
Thu, 21 March 2019 10:55 |
richshoop
Messages: 190
Registered: April 2017
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I agree with Jerry about SAE vs AWG wire sizing. Adding crimp terminals are a good way to proceed assuming that you have a proper full cycle crimping tool for the lug you are using. Do not consider soldering the lug! Another approach to be used is the substitution of the household wiring devices with 'specification' grade devices, which have a clamp bar under the screw that is approved for both solid and stranded wire.
> On March 20, 2019 at 6:35 PM Matt Colie via Gmclist wrote:
>
>
> glwgmc wrote on Tue, 19 March 2019 09:41
>> Going the other way - using marine tin plated stranded copper wire - seems a much wiser choice to me than that failure prone aluminum stuff. With
>> the marine wire you can down size one wire gauge to carry the same amps if you want to and the connectors will be much less prone to corrosion and
>> failure over time. The labor involved in changing wire is much greater than the cost of the wire itself so I would think you only want to do it
>> once.
>>
>> Jerry Work
>
> Jerry,
>
> I don't know where you got this information, but it has big issues. Marine wire is still the same amount of copper as AWG specified wire. While USCG
> requires a higher temperature insulation than most common NEC specification, only allows a slightly higher ampacity. It is seldom enough to make any
> difference. (This is from a guy that worked as a ship's electrician, both onboard and in yards, and did work that was inspected buy USCG and ABS.)
> Could you down size from CCA, sure, but only if you have it in mind to use CCA anyway, and that is a real bad choice in my educated opinion.
>
> Ampacity is really only an issue with high voltage (like ~120VAC) stuff. It works there and there only. For normal applications, you will find that
> 14AWG is good for 15A, 12AWG is good for 20A and 10 is good for 30A. In actual fact, by NEC code they are all capable of greater. Now, when it comes
> to marine, using the stranded equivalent to to an NM X-G will put you into a triplex cable (with the same conductor colors, but the ground is green
> and not bare.) A big no-no is trying to use household grade wiring devices. These are not acceptable for marine stranded wire. You can either go
> and buy these as marine ($$$) or use what amount to residential grade switches and outlets and make all the connections with properly crimped
> terminals. That will pass an inspection.
>
> Now, when it comes to 12 or even 24 V (nominal) systems, the tables that you find for 2% or 10% voltage drop are garbage (IMNSO). First off, those
> tables are all for one direction only, so they are already wrong by a factor of two as most people read them. Then come the fact that many devices
> are very sensitive to supply voltage. A 2% drop, if it is calculated correctly, is 0.24V. Yes, that is about 1/4 of a volt. That may not sound like
> much, but in some cases it can be a real headache. There is another little snake that people miss all the time. SAE spec wire is as much as 10% less
> copper than AWG. So that #10 cable in our coach may not smoke at 30 amps, but it is really closer to #9AWG and will provide the associate voltage
> drop. This is really a joy when trying (in a newer 26) to recover the house bank from the main engine alternator.
>
> Before the most recent depression, I made a living making owner's older racing boats into performance cruisers. I always quoted the work as labor
> plus copper. This so they would understand that about a quarter of the job cost was the copper that would still be there when I was done. I would
> steadily remind them that they only had to buy the copper once.
>
> Well that is enough of this stuff for an evening and after a full road day.
>
> Matt - Holding up at the north Georgia Welcome Center. Tomorrow is Florida - Too late to register.
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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