Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez)
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341122] |
Mon, 18 February 2019 15:24  |
Thomas Pryor
Messages: 143
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Karen Bradley has installed her MB fan using the EBL software and the GM
based controller. As i understand it, most any of the EFI controllers can
actuate our MB viscous fan clutch solenoid. Most EFI devices can turn and
off a fan or Fan clutch, but cannot modulate for soft start and reduced
duty cycle (RPM) which means less noise and less cooling
I believe Karen would entertain conversations on the matter. In one of the
last Emails we traded she had the following comments:
KB
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341169 is a reply to message #341161] |
Wed, 20 February 2019 20:12  |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Tom,
Glad you're healing...
And glad you're working on the PWM control - I thought I'd missed something, but the soft start and PWM control will be great when you're finished with it. Maybe have the EFI fan start signal as an input, then it can be 'start it when the EFI says so, with soft start, and control it to maintain the current temp or lower'.
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341174 is a reply to message #341169] |
Wed, 20 February 2019 22:20 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I put together an electronic fan clutch setup for my diesel swap and used a PWM controller with great hopes of very precise fan control. What I found was a little different result than I'd hoped for. The PWM does provide a soft start and the manual override control which is nice but the fan doesn't want to run at reduced fan speeds to throttle the cooling that I'd hoped would happen. It acts very similar to a stock properly working fan clutch in this regards. The controller permits a wide range of temperature turn on settings that takes a little extra effort to set correctly also. I'd guess the fluid can't work fast enough for the PWM pulse in the Hayden controller. Of course, the controller was designed for electric fans so wouldn't have any 'buffering' to slow the pulses which is probably needed in my application. I'd be interested in knowing if the new PWM controller will have this 'buffering'?
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341196 is a reply to message #341122] |
Fri, 22 February 2019 08:05 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Let's note here, 'soft start' is a bit of a misnomer. The MB clutch, like the original, activates by opening a valve and letting the acting fluid through. This gives a smooth engagement rather than a jerk. Just llike the original, turning it on isn't going to shock load the pump. What it dies is modulate the fan speed. Whether this i worth the more complicated circuitry is open to debate, as those controllers go intop the field we'll find out.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341214 is a reply to message #341205] |
Fri, 22 February 2019 19:43 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The orton fan clutch is for low rpm (desila) only, not same as the one for
gasoline engine that turn much higher rpm.
On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 8:54 AM Bill Van Vlack via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Google helped me with some info.....
>
> Here's a PDF of how GM describes the PWM viscous fan control - from 2002.
> www.norcal-cobras.com/GTM/gm-tech-link/7_02_e.pdf
>
> And here is a description with graphs.
>
> http://www.ngclark.com.au/brands/horton/fan-clutch/vmaster-directly-controlled-viscous/
>
> Both references describe using a PWM signal from the ECU, which likely has
> a PI or PID algorithm to prevent hunting or overshoot.
>
> Control is a little tricky, because engine speed is changing as the
> controller is trying to maintain a controlled temperature. Pretty sure
> there needs
> to be a fan speed feedback to the controller.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Bill Van Vlack
> '76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath,
> Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o
> mid
> November 2015.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341253 is a reply to message #341122] |
Sun, 24 February 2019 10:06 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Feedback is available. Matterofact, you can get for a bit of trouble the fan RPM and compare it to the engine tach. I see little need for it, bit it's available. Feed the controller 5 volts and ground, and get the pulse train from it. 6 pulses per rev, so a divide by two chip will output a pulse train which is accurate in a tach set for a 6 cylinder engine.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341256 is a reply to message #341253] |
Sun, 24 February 2019 10:26 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
|
Senior Member |
|
|
What controller would that be, Johnny? The one provided with the kit, the one Tom is experimenting with, or something else?
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341259 is a reply to message #341122] |
Sun, 24 February 2019 10:43 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Not controller specific... the fan unit has a Hall Effect sensor in it and six tabs which the sensor can pick up. Those are the three unused leads. One gets 5V, one gets ground, and the other will output a pulse train. This is the same as the Ford setup we first looked at, and appears to be much the same on all the manufacturer's controlled fans. Modulating the valve gives a slight reduction in engine load relative to having it full open all the time. No one has publicly owned up to the amount of benefit, but in a situation where every bit of mileage is chased, it may have some value. I personally don't see the complexity as being worth it on a GMC, but I'm open minded about it and thus waiting for the results from the people sorting it out. I don't think pulse width modulated vs on or off is going to be very noticeable in our coaches. Or, put another way, we're using very long pulses. Note Hal's experience above.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341263 is a reply to message #341259] |
Sun, 24 February 2019 12:47 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I think the control algorithm would need to act slowly to avoid overshoot and maintain a water temp setpoint because the sensor that is sensing engine heat load moves slowly, but the fan itself has to change speed quickly to make up for the loss of fan speed when the engine slows down.
One control that tries to maintain constant air mass through the radiator and another that changes the setpoint of the air mass control in reaction to engine heat gain/loss.
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341274 is a reply to message #341122] |
Sun, 24 February 2019 19:06 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bill, if you or somebody is interested, get an arduino or the like for data gathering, and record temps, speeds, fan duty cycle, etc. Basically I'm told the systems use a 20Hz pulse train width modulated. 20 Hz relative to the reaction speed of the valve and the fan is essentially a way of turning the fan voltage up and down. It's cheaper than anything else. It would be interesting to hang your scope across the valve and see hoe integrated the pulses actually are.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341279 is a reply to message #341274] |
Sun, 24 February 2019 21:10 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Johnny,
I think the PWM pulses turn the solenoid in the fan clutch on and off. The longer the pulse, the longer the solenoid is open, the more viscous fluid is let through, the more the clutch is engaged and the closer fan speed is to engine speed.
I know that PWM control of electric fans basically change the average DC voltage to the motor and therefore change the fan speed. I don't think viscous fans work that way.
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341288 is a reply to message #341122] |
Mon, 25 February 2019 08:21 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
They turn the power to the solenoid on and off. It (the solenoid) opens and closes a valve to allow the working fluid into the vanes of the clutch. It isn't capable of opening and closing 20 times per second although the voltage is appearing and disappearing at that rate. What happens is the valve 'integrates' the pulses and essentially opens to a value equivalent to the average voltage of the pulse train. A switching transistor can handle a lot more current that an amplifying one of the same size, thus the PWM controller is les expensioive to iterate than a voltage controller.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341292 is a reply to message #341288] |
Mon, 25 February 2019 09:04 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Solenoids are a long, long, wire of fairly small diameter. When a voltage
is applied to the wire, a very strong magnetic field is produced around
that coil of wire. If there is a plunger in the middle of the coil, usually
made of soft iron, it will try to get out of that strong magnetic field.
Repulsion induction is one name for the effect. Hook a lever or belcrank
onto the plunger, and you can do work. (Open a fluid valve, for example).
There is heat produced in the process, as well as a rapidly collapsing
magnetic field, and sometimes a high voltage of brief duration. RFI also is
produced. Not a friendly environment for electronic stuff like radio
receivers or on-board computers and the like. A viscous fluid coupling is
an imprecise device. Seems to me that there must be a better way to
regulate fan speed than this.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
On Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 6:42 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org wrote:
> They turn the power to the solenoid on and off. It (the solenoid) opens
> and closes a valve to allow the working fluid into the vanes of the clutch.
> It isn't capable of opening and closing 20 times per second although the
> voltage is appearing and disappearing at that rate. What happens is the
> valve 'integrates' the pulses and essentially opens to a value equivalent
> to the average voltage of the pulse train. A switching transistor can
> handle a lot more current that an amplifying one of the same size, thus
> the PWM controller is les expensioive to iterate than a voltage controller.
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341307 is a reply to message #341122] |
Mon, 25 February 2019 12:46 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Let me suggest that in our coaches, I don't see it necessary anyhow. Turn the fan on or off as needed. IF you wish to run it at other than full on, though, the cheapest and probably most reliable way is with a PWM system. As to solenoids and heat, the maker tells is it's built to remain on constantly. I suspect in FedEx trucks in town it never turns off.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Anyone install the Mercedes Benz electrically controlled fan clutch on a 403 yet? (Mike Perez) [message #341308 is a reply to message #341292] |
Mon, 25 February 2019 12:46 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Johnny,
Aren't fuel injectors really solenoids? They open and close pretty darn quickly. But I can see how a PWM signal into a slow solenoid could pull the solenoid towards open for the duration of a pulse, then relax, then pull again on the next pulse, and so on... thereby allowing a quantity of viscous fluid through that is proportional to the duty cycle of the pulse train and to the average voltage as you describe.
Here is a description of PWM solenoid control...
https://www.tlxtech.com/understanding-solenoids/theory-operation/pwm-solenoid-theory
Engine Control Units (ECUs) with EV Clutch speed control capability send out a PWM signal.
Here's video from Borg Warner showing how the EV clutch works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxjfuJi4IUs
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
[Updated on: Mon, 25 February 2019 12:56] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Wed Nov 20 01:39:16 CST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01610 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
