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| [GMCnet] Coach Fires [message #340834] |
Sun, 10 February 2019 08:44  |
JerryW
Messages: 256
Registered: August 2018
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Due to what appears to be an increase in the number of GMC Motorhome fires during the last year, we will have a panel discussion about coach fires, their causes and how to prevent them during the Tallahassee convention.
Please consider this a call for panelists and information.
Your insight and information will be appreciated by all.
If you can’t make it, we would be happy to include your materials in the presentation and the handouts.
The panel discussion will be moderated by Fred Hudspeth.
Please email me directly at dolph@dolphsantorine.com if you would like to participate.
Thanks!
Dolph
DE AD0LF
Wheeling, West Virginia
1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Sullybilt Bags, Manny Transmission
“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach Fires [message #340844 is a reply to message #340835] |
Sun, 10 February 2019 11:30  |
JerryW
Messages: 256
Registered: August 2018
Karma: 1
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Bruce, what you say is mostly true.
However you do not have to be a certified electrician to check and tighten screws in electrical boxes. You said you did yours several years ago. Are you a certified Electrian? If it was several years ago you really should do it again.
Any owner can easily check and tighten the screws in his motorhome breaker and receptacle boxes. Just be sure to unplug the coach before doing it.
Another thing is that one shouldn’t wait several years to do it. I check mine every couple of years and often find screws that have loosened. Besides the softness of the copper wires the thermal heating and cooling of the screws cause them to loosen. I don’t think one needs a certificate to turn a screwdriver, anyone can do it.
As far as having a Certified Electrian check all the motorhome at the GMCMI convention, who will pay for that? If he spent 45 minutes (that’s working very fast if he is also checking all the receptacles) on each motorhome that would be about 94 hours of time or about 16 hours per day for the 6 day convention. That would also be $9400 at $100 per hour if you could get a certified Electrian to work for that.
I don’t think you could even get volunteers to do it as they would be paying over $400 to attend plus perhaps a few hundred in gasoline. They wouldn’t have time to do anything else at the convention.
I believe that individual owners should do their own. Perhaps someone could do a one hour seminar on how to open an electrical box and identify the screws and how to turn a screwdriver clockwise. :)
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick CO
> On Feb 10, 2019, at 8:19 AM, Bruce Hislop via Gmclist wrote:
>
> I won't be able to attend the Rally, but I would like to offer this suggestion....
>
> Have a certified Electrician check and tighten all 120V electrical connections in the coach. Copper is a soft metal which can deform over time under
> the screw head connection. Also driving the coach shakes everything. Over 40+ years the connections in the breaker panel and at receptacles will have
> loosened causing resistance or intermittent connections. Current through a resistance dissipates heat which leads to increased resistance and more
> heat then thermal runaway and fire. Also have them replace any receptacles that have loose plug connections. Changing the receptacle at the kitchen
> counter to a Ground Fault unit is also a very good idea for your safety.
>
> I did mine several years ago and at each connection I could tighten it at least 1/2 turn and two breaker connections were very loose.
> --
> Bruce Hislop
> ON Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach Fires [message #340846 is a reply to message #340834] |
Sun, 10 February 2019 11:44 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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My most used inspection tool at broadcast transmitter plants was/is an infrared thermometer. ANY connection warmer than ambient got looked at and usually redone. More than several times this kept a potential wiring fire from making problems for us. And use your nose - hot stuff smells long before it glows or burns.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach Fires [message #340870 is a reply to message #340846] |
Sun, 10 February 2019 17:46 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Well there are lots of areas to be covered as far as coach fires goes. Many years ago I had one serious gasoline fed fire and barely survived it. It was not fun and State Farm paid me over $10,000 to fix the damage. I learned several things that I did wrong and also what worked in the end.
I think you need to divide your fire topic into two areas. Prevention and suppression of a fire once one has started.
On the prevention side we need to look at all of the possible fire ignition sources, the fuel sources, and accelerants available once a fire has started. You can reduce these and sometimes remove these exposures, but you will never remove all of them completely. There is always something we did not think of or maybe over looked on a 40 year old, or even new, coach.
On the suppression side you need to look at the most likely areas of a fire source and plan how to extinguish a fire when started in those areas.
After my fire about 15 years ago we put together an informal GMC group to investigate the best way to suppress / extinguish these fires. The group included me, Paul Bartz, a GMC owner and full time fire fighter, a fire dept. Captain, an airport manager and a part time fire dept lieutenant, some people in charge of a fire dept training academy, and several other GMCers in the US and Canada. We investigated to find what is the best solution(s) on fire suppression in a motorhome and specifically a GMC motor home.
After that we did an online seminar with our results and recommendations. It has been 15 years ago but the recommendations still apply. I just need to see if I can find that documentation anymore. If I can find it I will send it to you and you can use whatever you want from it.
We found the prevention side on an GMC was pretty well documented. The suppression side had many, many options from good to poor bad and was highly influenced by whatever a retailer was trying to sell. There was no one size fit all solution to protect / extinguish the various possible sources of fire in a GMC motor home.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach Fires [message #340874 is a reply to message #340873] |
Sun, 10 February 2019 19:38 |
JerryW
Messages: 256
Registered: August 2018
Karma: 1
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Hi Bruce
I had assumed that you would realize that I was writing this somewhat “tongue in Cheek”. Especially when I suggested a seminar on how to turn a screwdriver clockwise with a happy face after that sentence.
I agree totally with you that GMCers should check their circuit breaker boxes and that they will likely find loose screws that could cause the wires to overheat.
Emery
> On Feb 10, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Bruce Hislop via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Gezz Emery, now I wish I had not posted anything!
>
> I said to get an Electrician because there are many on here who admit they don't know anything about electricity. Anyone who knows they are capable of
> doing this work is free to do it as I have (you are right, I'm not a licenced Electrician). I don't want to encourage others to do work they are not
> comfortable doing. Suggesting a professional do it was to cover my liability butt.
>
> I also wasn't suggesting that this work be done professionally as part of a Rally activity.
>
> As far as doing a seminar on it, again I go back to covering my liability butt. It may be hard to find someone to go out on a limb on this one.
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop
> ON Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach Fires [message #340875 is a reply to message #340844] |
Sun, 10 February 2019 19:37 |
JerryW
Messages: 256
Registered: August 2018
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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After chasing electrical things in most everything that moves, for over 40 years. I agree with Johnny, check every connection. A key point to remember, and remind ourselves regularly, every circuit consists of a feed wire, the load, and the return wire.
In 12V circuits, the positive lead is the feed, the return wire is the ground wire, that is typically connected to the nearest piece of bare metal, and basically, you are hoping for the best. Do not hope for the best, run a new black wire back to a negative buss bar immediately next to the battery terminal, no splices, no shared load. It is painful, it is hard to do, but it is the only way to guarantee clean electricity to that load.
In my experience, the most likely cause of electrical woes is user modified wiring. Undersize wire, no fuses, improper crimping tools, improper lugs.. How many of us have replaced the dash mounted radio and just spliced in the power wire turned it on and said good enough.
Did you note how much additional power is needed?
Did you increase the size of the ground wire to handle the additional load?
As far as the common wiring techniques used in the coaches. A tin plated copper lug, mechanically attached to an aluminum bar, with a cadmium plated self drilling steel screw. Add 40 years of contact. Does anyone miss the point that you are dealing with a mechanically built battery that is corroding itself apart?
To properly deal with this system, you must disconnect the connection point. Inspect the lug for loss of the tin, corrosion of the aluminum, clean both with a piece of Scothbrite, not steel wool, and put back together.
My experience tells me that the wire that is most likely to be the heat up and fail culprit are the ground or return wires.
Considering the AC wiring in the coaches, DO tighten up the connections in the main circuit breaker box as part of your start of season ritual. Do it with the coach unplugged only. Do not work on energized circuits.
As far as the AC outlets in the coach, do NOT use the push in the back wiring points in the outlets, they will melt if you use, even occasionally, heavy AC loads, like space heaters, microwave ovens, etc. Use the screw connections always. Spend the $1.50 more and use the commercial grade outlets.
Be SURE that the main panel does NOT have the neutral on the ground connected together in the coach subpanel. Bad things can happen!
Follow the original schematic as done by GMC. The people who built our coaches were professionals in their various fields, trust them.
> On February 10, 2019 at 9:30 AM Emery Stora via Gmclist wrote:
>
>
> Bruce, what you say is mostly true.
> However you do not have to be a certified electrician to check and tighten screws in electrical boxes. You said you did yours several years ago. Are you a certified Electrian? If it was several years ago you really should do it again.
>
> Any owner can easily check and tighten the screws in his motorhome breaker and receptacle boxes. Just be sure to unplug the coach before doing it.
>
> Another thing is that one shouldn’t wait several years to do it. I check mine every couple of years and often find screws that have loosened. Besides the softness of the copper wires the thermal heating and cooling of the screws cause them to loosen. I don’t think one needs a certificate to turn a screwdriver, anyone can do it.
> As far as having a Certified Electrian check all the motorhome at the GMCMI convention, who will pay for that? If he spent 45 minutes (that’s working very fast if he is also checking all the receptacles) on each motorhome that would be about 94 hours of time or about 16 hours per day for the 6 day convention. That would also be $9400 at $100 per hour if you could get a certified Electrian to work for that.
>
> I don’t think you could even get volunteers to do it as they would be paying over $400 to attend plus perhaps a few hundred in gasoline. They wouldn’t have time to do anything else at the convention.
>
> I believe that individual owners should do their own. Perhaps someone could do a one hour seminar on how to open an electrical box and identify the screws and how to turn a screwdriver clockwise. :)
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick CO
>
>> On Feb 10, 2019, at 8:19 AM, Bruce Hislop via Gmclist wrote:
>>
>> I won't be able to attend the Rally, but I would like to offer this suggestion....
>>
>> Have a certified Electrician check and tighten all 120V electrical connections in the coach. Copper is a soft metal which can deform over time under
>> the screw head connection. Also driving the coach shakes everything. Over 40+ years the connections in the breaker panel and at receptacles will have
>> loosened causing resistance or intermittent connections. Current through a resistance dissipates heat which leads to increased resistance and more
>> heat then thermal runaway and fire. Also have them replace any receptacles that have loose plug connections. Changing the receptacle at the kitchen
>> counter to a Ground Fault unit is also a very good idea for your safety.
>>
>> I did mine several years ago and at each connection I could tighten it at least 1/2 turn and two breaker connections were very loose.
>> --
>> Bruce Hislop
>> ON Canada
>> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.1 ton front end
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
>> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach Fires [message #340892 is a reply to message #340890] |
Mon, 11 February 2019 09:25 |
JerryW
Messages: 256
Registered: August 2018
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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That depends on which side of the Atlantic or Pacific you are on!
Europe and Australia mandate the use of stranded wiring for both the coach and chassis. You’ll generally see SVT or SVO thermoplastic jacketed 16 gauge wire (remember, they are 220V, and require about half the copper).
I was way into the wiring on my coach, and it is 12/2 Romex, in it’s 40 year old glory, and it was just fine. I left it in place.
When I’ve needed to add some, I’ve stayed with the Romex. It has great chafing resistance, it's copper and it’s cheap.
Dolph
DE AD0LF
Wheeling, West Virginia
1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
Howell EFI & EBL, Reaction Arms, Sullybilt Bags, Manny Transmission
“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"
> On Feb 11, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Dave Stragand via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Speaking of wiring...My Transmode’s previous owner wired all of the AC in the cabin with 12/2 ‘yellow’ Romex. I would think this should be BX or some other armored cable instead, correct? What is the best/safest AC wiring for replacement purposes?
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach Fires [message #340939 is a reply to message #340834] |
Tue, 12 February 2019 10:14 |
TR 1
Messages: 348
Registered: August 2015
Location: DFW
Karma: -7
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One tip I'd like to throw out there is when you replace your fuel lines, (Which should definitely be addressed in any fire prevention discussion with the affect Ethanol has on non-compatible fuel line) there is the option of using Marine grade fuel hose. Coast Guard specification A1-15 requires fuel hose to withstand 90 seconds exposed to fire without perforating. A1-15 also requires the hose to be less permeable to fuel vapor than automotive grade hose... Not a bad thing when you are living right above 40 feet or so of fuel line.
While the fire resistance won't necessarily prevent a fire... The 90 seconds would give you more time to put out a small fire before it becomes a large one if the fire melts your fuel line.
Best part is if you buy a 50' box, you can easily find it for around $2 a foot... Which is comparable or even less than fuel injection rated hose from the autoparts store....
I used the below hose for my coach, and it is rated for ethanol blended gasoline, diesel, and interestingly propane...
https://www.fisheriessupply.com/trident-marine-series-365-barrier-a1-marine-fuel-hose
Only drawback I noticed when I did my coach was that it is a little thicker, and a little harder to bend than most automotive fuel hoses, but it installed just fine. On the plus side, it is definitely more substantial and seems more durable than most automotive fuel hoses.
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach Fires [message #340949 is a reply to message #340939] |
Tue, 12 February 2019 17:08 |
gmc-email-list
Messages: 124
Registered: February 2019
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 11:42 AM Mark Sawyer via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> One tip I'd like to throw out there is when you replace your fuel lines,
> (Which should definitely be addressed in any fire prevention discussion with
> the affect Ethanol has on non-compatible fuel line) there is the option of
> using Marine grade fuel hose. Coast Guard specification A1-15 requires
> fuel hose to withstand 90 seconds exposed to fire without perforating.
> A1-15 also requires the hose to be less permeable to fuel vapor than
> automotive grade hose... Not a bad thing when you are living right above
> 40 feet or so of fuel line.
>
> While the fire resistance won't necessarily prevent a fire... The 90
> seconds would give you more time to put out a small fire before it becomes a
> large one if the fire melts your fuel line.
>
> Best part is if you buy a 50' box, you can easily find it for around $2 a
> foot... Which is comparable or even less than fuel injection rated hose
> from the autoparts store....
>
> I used the below hose for my coach, and it is rated for ethanol blended
> gasoline, diesel, and interestingly propane...
>
>
> https://www.fisheriessupply.com/trident-marine-series-365-barrier-a1-marine-fuel-hose
>
>
> Only drawback I noticed when I did my coach was that it is a little
> thicker, and a little harder to bend than most automotive fuel hoses, but it
> installed just fine. On the plus side, it is definitely more substantial
> and seems more durable than most automotive fuel hoses.
>
>
> --
> Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
> Manny 1 Ton Front End,
> Howell Injection,
> Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
> Fort Worth, TX
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach Fires [message #340993 is a reply to message #340834] |
Wed, 13 February 2019 17:11 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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First - or if you like ADs Before Further Flight. Ensure that all fuel hoses are barrier type, from the tank senders throughout. Either by direct examination or verified receipt from a known shop. If this means taking the tanks down, have at it.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Coach Fires [message #340998 is a reply to message #340993] |
Wed, 13 February 2019 18:49 |
gmc-email-list
Messages: 124
Registered: February 2019
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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S, whoever you are and where ever you live, you don't have a signature
file, in the 22 years I've owned mine, I've only heard of 4 fires. If we
knew the year of your coach, we might be able to offer more sound advice.
Mike in NS
On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 7:22 PM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> First - or if you like ADs Before Further Flight. Ensure that all fuel
> hoses are barrier type, from the tank senders throughout. Either by direct
> examination or verified receipt from a known shop. If this means taking
> the tanks down, have at it.
>
> --johnny
> --
> Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !
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