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[GMCnet] Ethanol wars [message #340408] Sun, 27 January 2019 11:30 Go to next message
JerryW is currently offline  JerryW   United States
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Registered: August 2018
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Senior Member
While it fun to engage in all the conspiracy theories surrounding the addition of ethanol to what we call gasoline it is important to put this all in the context of that day. While never based on good science, the localized argument was two fold - burning something other than gasoline would reduce our dependence on imported oil and if we burn something other than gasoline we will reduce emissions harmful to the atmosphere. Those two formed the nexus that persists to this day even though the situation has changed dramatically.

Thanks to radical changes in technology we now are the largest producer of oil and gas in the world and our auto producers have dramatically redesigned auto engines to emit far less than they did when this whole thing started. So, neither of the initial arguments make much sense any more but all the entrenched players have figured out how to profit from the status quo so there is a massive pressure to preserve it.

As GMC enthusiasts there is not much we can do other than make the changes we can to allow our coaches to function, if not thrive, in the world of alcohol laced fuels that likely will be with us through the remaining useful life of a GMC. From what we know today it is only a matter of time until we will need to change everything that touches fuel to keep our GMCs on the road. Partial steps will help for a while, but if I were restoring another GMC today I would start at the fuel tanks and replace everything from there to where the atomized fuel flows into the intake manifold through a modern fuel injection system.

Far more productive than mashing teeth over the boogie men asserted to be conspiring to keep alcohol in our fuels. My take, anyway.

Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed & hand crafted
in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building
in historic Kerby, OR
http://jerrywork.com



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Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol wars [message #340423 is a reply to message #340408] Sun, 27 January 2019 16:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim Miller is currently offline  Jim Miller   United States
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
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Senior Member
On Jan 27, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Gerald Work via Gmclist wrote:

> While it fun to engage in all the conspiracy theories surrounding the addition of ethanol to what we call gasoline it is important to put this all in the context of that day. While never based on good science, the localized argument was two fold - burning something other than gasoline would reduce our dependence on imported oil and if we burn something other than gasoline we will reduce emissions harmful to the atmosphere.

ISTR that the EPA was wanting an oxygenate additive in the late 70’s/early 80s to reduce emissions from carbureted vehicles (of which almost all vehicles were at that time) and the petro industry developed and starting including MTBE as their oxygenating additive.

Then, at some point, the narrative was heard that MTBE was being found in groundwater and therefore a safer additive was needed - with that safer additive being EtOH. Plus EtOH was “renewable” and was good for the big Ag industry as well as being less injurious to groundwater than MTBE was.

Clearly there are some logical problems with all of this:

1. If MTBE was in the groundwater then gasoline would have also had to have been there too - as they both would have been from leaking USTs. Switching to EtOH as the additive would do nothing to eliminate the gasoline that was leaking underground.

2. Closed-loop fuel injection was just around the corner and would eliminate the need for the extra oxygenate anyway - yet we still have it 30 years later.

I could be all washed up on my recollection and look forward to hearing from Matt Colie and the others who were active in the industry at the time.


--Jim
Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH




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Jim Miller 1977 Eleganza II 1977 Royale Hamilton, OH
Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol wars [message #340424 is a reply to message #340423] Sun, 27 January 2019 17:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Jim Miller wrote on Sun, 27 January 2019 17:55
ISTR that the EPA was wanting an oxygenate additive in the late 70's/early 80s to reduce emissions from carbureted vehicles (of which almost all vehicles were at that time) and the petro industry developed and starting including MTBE as their oxygenating additive.

Then, at some point, the narrative was heard that MTBE was being found in groundwater and therefore a safer additive was needed - with that safer additive being EtOH. Plus EtOH was "renewable" and was good for the big Ag industry as well as being less injurious to groundwater than MTBE was.

Clearly there are some logical problems with all of this:

1. If MTBE was in the groundwater then gasoline would have also had to have been there too - as they both would have been from leaking USTs. Switching to EtOH as the additive would do nothing to eliminate the gasoline that was leaking underground.

2. Closed-loop fuel injection was just around the corner and would eliminate the need for the extra oxygenate anyway - yet we still have it 30 years later.

I could be all washed up on my recollection and look forward to hearing from Matt Colie and the others who were active in the industry at the time.

--Jim
Jim,

Your memory is very good.

MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether) is incredibly soluble in water. Much more so even than ethanol. It was never proven to be a carcinogen (though CARB wanted it to be) but as an engine lab with fuel storage on site, we were required to notify the city (Ann Arbor), the county and the state anytime we had more than one pound of it on the property. It was a pretty good knock suppressant, but it sucked as and oxygenant. But as said, we had to de-tune the engines to make any change that either that or alcohol could cause any gain.

If anybody had looked at the engineering going on, they would have seen that before they could even implement their "wonderful" ideas, the technology would make them all irrelevant. (Which is where we have been since the mid 80's.) ECMs came on line with the first of the closed loop catalyst engines. They were controlled carburetors and not all that good, but they could keep a catalyst lit and that was important.

Me?
I'm still trying to figure out how something that makes ICE engines burn more fuel is better for anything. With the possible exception of the producers of said product....

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol wars [message #340425 is a reply to message #340408] Sun, 27 January 2019 17:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
Senior Member
Hey Matt, what have you got to say about Hexavalent Chromium Erin
Brockovich made a career out of it, as I remember.
Jim Hupy

On Sun, Jan 27, 2019, 3:45 PM James Hupy Yep, anytime you burn 10 gallons of fuel to do the same job that 5 gallons[/color]
> of fuel will do, what happens to the 5 gallons that just gets burned up
> with no work being done??
> I already know the answer, but I am curious what the rest of you
> think. Any government types want to put their spin on this one? (Grin)
> Jim Hupy
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 27, 2019, 3:31 PM Matt Colie
>> Jim Miller wrote on Sun, 27 January 2019 17:55
>>> ISTR that the EPA was wanting an oxygenate additive in the late
>> 70's/early 80s to reduce emissions from carbureted vehicles (of which
>> almost all
>>> vehicles were at that time) and the petro industry developed and
>> starting including MTBE as their oxygenating additive.
>>>
>>> Then, at some point, the narrative was heard that MTBE was being found
>> in groundwater and therefore a safer additive was needed - with that safer
>>> additive being EtOH. Plus EtOH was "renewable" and was good for the big
>> Ag industry as well as being less injurious to groundwater than MTBE was.
>>>
>>> Clearly there are some logical problems with all of this:
>>>
>>> 1. If MTBE was in the groundwater then gasoline would have also had to
>> have been there too - as they both would have been from leaking USTs.
>>> Switching to EtOH as the additive would do nothing to eliminate the
>> gasoline that was leaking underground.
>>>
>>> 2. Closed-loop fuel injection was just around the corner and would
>> eliminate the need for the extra oxygenate anyway - yet we still have it 30
>>> years later.
>>>
>>> I could be all washed up on my recollection and look forward to hearing
>> from Matt Colie and the others who were active in the industry at the
>>> time.
>>>
>>> --Jim
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> Your memory is very good.
>>
>> MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether) is incredibly soluble in water. Much
>> more so even than ethanol. It was never proven to be a carcinogen (though
>> CARB wanted it to be) but as an engine lab with fuel storage on site, we
>> were required to notify the city (Ann Arbor), the county and the state
>> anytime we had more than one pound of it on the property. It was a
>> pretty good knock suppressant, but it sucked as and oxygenant. But as
>> said, we
>> had to de-tune the engines to make any change that either that or alcohol
>> could cause any gain.
>>
>> If anybody had looked at the engineering going on, they would have seen
>> that before they could even implement their "wonderful" ideas, the
>> technology
>> would make them all irrelevant. (Which is where we have been since the
>> mid 80's.) ECMs came on line with the first of the closed loop catalyst
>> engines. They were controlled carburetors and not all that good, but
>> they could keep a catalyst lit and that was important.
>>
>> Me?
>> I'm still trying to figure out how something that makes ICE engines burn
>> more fuel is better for anything. With the possible exception of the
>> producers of said product....
>>
>> Matt
>> --
>> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
>> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
>> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
>> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol wars [message #340426 is a reply to message #340424] Sun, 27 January 2019 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
Senior Member
Yep, anytime you burn 10 gallons of fuel to do the same job that 5 gallons
of fuel will do, what happens to the 5 gallons that just gets burned up
with no work being done??
I already know the answer, but I am curious what the rest of you
think. Any government types want to put their spin on this one? (Grin)
Jim Hupy


On Sun, Jan 27, 2019, 3:31 PM Matt Colie Jim Miller wrote on Sun, 27 January 2019 17:55[/color]
>> ISTR that the EPA was wanting an oxygenate additive in the late
> 70's/early 80s to reduce emissions from carbureted vehicles (of which
> almost all
>> vehicles were at that time) and the petro industry developed and
> starting including MTBE as their oxygenating additive.
>>
>> Then, at some point, the narrative was heard that MTBE was being found
> in groundwater and therefore a safer additive was needed - with that safer
>> additive being EtOH. Plus EtOH was "renewable" and was good for the big
> Ag industry as well as being less injurious to groundwater than MTBE was.
>>
>> Clearly there are some logical problems with all of this:
>>
>> 1. If MTBE was in the groundwater then gasoline would have also had to
> have been there too - as they both would have been from leaking USTs.
>> Switching to EtOH as the additive would do nothing to eliminate the
> gasoline that was leaking underground.
>>
>> 2. Closed-loop fuel injection was just around the corner and would
> eliminate the need for the extra oxygenate anyway - yet we still have it 30
>> years later.
>>
>> I could be all washed up on my recollection and look forward to hearing
> from Matt Colie and the others who were active in the industry at the
>> time.
>>
>> --Jim
>
> Jim,
>
> Your memory is very good.
>
> MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether) is incredibly soluble in water. Much
> more so even than ethanol. It was never proven to be a carcinogen (though
> CARB wanted it to be) but as an engine lab with fuel storage on site, we
> were required to notify the city (Ann Arbor), the county and the state
> anytime we had more than one pound of it on the property. It was a pretty
> good knock suppressant, but it sucked as and oxygenant. But as said, we
> had to de-tune the engines to make any change that either that or alcohol
> could cause any gain.
>
> If anybody had looked at the engineering going on, they would have seen
> that before they could even implement their "wonderful" ideas, the
> technology
> would make them all irrelevant. (Which is where we have been since the
> mid 80's.) ECMs came on line with the first of the closed loop catalyst
> engines. They were controlled carburetors and not all that good, but they
> could keep a catalyst lit and that was important.
>
> Me?
> I'm still trying to figure out how something that makes ICE engines burn
> more fuel is better for anything. With the possible exception of the
> producers of said product....
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol wars [message #340430 is a reply to message #340425] Sun, 27 January 2019 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
Senior Member
James Hupy wrote on Sun, 27 January 2019 18:47
Hey Matt, what have you got to say about Hexavalent Chromium Erin
Brockovich made a career out of it, as I remember.
Jim Hupy
Well, she sure did and PG&E deserved to get stung for what they did and tried to hide.
That stuff was know nasty. It is used in plating (always nasty) and in some dyes. They were just pouring it on the ground and nobody was watching. That is why our lab had to jump through hoops to use anything that was non-standard.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol wars [message #340446 is a reply to message #340408] Mon, 28 January 2019 10:37 Go to previous message
jhbridges is currently offline  jhbridges   United States
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
Senior Member
When we consider the lobbing power of Cargill and Archer-Daniels-Midland and Monsanto against the lobbying power of the GMC and classic car community, I don't think we're gonna lose alcohol in our gas any time soon. I am told - and I don't know the source so I don't know how relevant it is - that the same folks are lobbying States to outlaw or severaly restrict the sale of 'boat gas' (non-ethanol gasoline).

--johnny


Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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