Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Blog update - new engine and efi start
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| Re: Blog update - new engine and efi start [message #339919 is a reply to message #339907] |
Thu, 03 January 2019 07:30   |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Mine's being built, todays' project is getting set to remove the lunched one and prep for the new. Should run into next week.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Blog update - new engine and efi start [message #339923 is a reply to message #339907] |
Thu, 03 January 2019 08:32 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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John,
That is a nice show.
I did my engine last winter, spring, summer.
I was working alone most of the time, so while I did get some pictures, there are not enough to make a good show.
It wasn't as badly hurt as yours, just one piston shed a third of its rings and they all ended up in the pan with only minor damage to that bore. Let's just say that I did have some supplier issues. But, I got it done in time to make Amana and then turn around a go to Mary's 50th HS Reunion in Albany NY. that was a quick 3K mile validation. Chaumière is in for the winter now.
If you are considering doing an rebuild on a 455 yourself, think long and hard. An Olds big block is a 600# engine. That stand that John was using is marginal (I toppled mine and managed to only loose a fuel pump.) Parts can be had, but they are not always easy to get. You will probably need a goodly number of tools you don't have and will never need again. Doing everything that you can do yourself will probably save you 300$ but that does not include the tools you may have to buy.
Why did I do mine?
First off, I didn't much for new tools as this was engine 23. (That does not include tiny engines.)
I wanted a build book. This is the documentation of all the assembly measurements that most people don't know/care about. (Like valve stem/guide, ring side clearance and thrust bearing clearance.) It also will have all the part numbers and suppliers where things came from. If I had had this documentation available for this engine, I literally would have saved me months of tracking things down.
Now, I have all of that.
And with the cam that Dick Paterson recommended, it is now an even sweeter engine than it was before.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Blog update - new engine and efi start [message #339925 is a reply to message #339907] |
Thu, 03 January 2019 08:53 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
both engine stands I used were solids stands. I think 1000 pound stands. I agree, when messing with this engine, a solid stand, cherry picker, and the right chains and hoists are all key items for safety. the stands I used pushed pretty easily around and were very sturdy. Look at the foot print, as they hare an H(and a wider one then some). I would not want to be messing around with a tri-pod stand.
Rick,
Steve called me the other week, and mentioned the engine. I told him to let me know if you guys want any extra hands. I need to get the info out on the website- but plan May 16-19th in St. Cloud for the spring rally.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: Blog update - new engine and efi start [message #339957 is a reply to message #339907] |
Sun, 06 January 2019 14:18 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Nice job of documenting your work, Jon.
I was working by myself and didn't manage to get many photos of the process, but did it through the bottom as a unit. It went pretty well, but was a lot of work and took longer than your process did, especially since I needed to go up and down a bunch of times to make sure I was getting things lined up right.
I have about 3000 miles on my new engine/transmission now and all seems to be good. We are heading up to Las Vegas and then on to Valley of Fire State Park, NV later this week (same trip we lost the engine and tranny on last year) It's about a 1000 mile trip, so we'll see how well that goes. Lots of ups and downs on that route and I have high hopes for my Kryptonite cam and Carter fuel pump. I had a lot of trouble on the upgrades last year.
EFI may be in my future as well, but for now, I'll stick with the Quadrajet.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Blog update - new engine and efi start [message #339958 is a reply to message #339907] |
Sun, 06 January 2019 17:09 |
Steve
Messages: 506
Registered: September 2013
Location: East Greenville, Pa
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Great pictures and documentation. Thanks for sharing.
1978 GMC Royal
Eastern Pennslyvania
1968 Chevrolet C20 396 Camper Special
1969 Chevrolet C20 Camper Special
1985 Buick Electra Park Avenue
1992 Camaro 25th Anniversary Heretage Edition Black
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| Re: Blog update - new engine and efi start [message #340026 is a reply to message #339956] |
Wed, 09 January 2019 10:47 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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David,
I am now of the opinion that the EBL system is the most proven EFI out there. Every part, with the exception of the actual ECU program/Chip is in millions of GM trucks. From what I can tell, they have been installing this system in GMC motorhomes since 2009 or earlier? You can buy it as a kit. EFI I think is an upgrade, it is not necessary.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Blog update - new engine and efi start [message #340027 is a reply to message #340026] |
Wed, 09 January 2019 11:29 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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I have installed several EBL and non EBL fuel injection systems in GMC
motorhomes. A couple of them went flawlessly. No problems at all. Simple
plug n play deal. On stock 455 engines.
On 403, not so much. But the eventual outcomes, with Randy VanWinkle's
tech support, and the creator of the Embedded Locker for extreme technical
support, I have learned a whole lot about the GM system. It is smarter than
I am, by a whole lot. But, I am a whole lot more stubborn. What the GM
system does not like, AT ALL, is to be powered down or have its basic
program screwed up with after market cam shafts, cylinder heads with great
big valves and high compression. Headers, different distributors, non stock
fuel injectors or pumps. IT CAN BE DONE, BUT IT QUICKLY BECOMES A NON PLUG
N PLAY SYSTEM.
The advantages? Instant starting. Altitude compensation, vapor lock
resistant, throttle response. reliability.
The disadvantages? Cost. complexity, requirement that you get smarter
than you were with carbs.
My take, your experience will vary.
Jim Hupy
On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 8:48 AM Jon Roche wrote:
> David,
>
> I am now of the opinion that the EBL system is the most proven EFI out
> there. Every part, with the exception of the actual ECU program/Chip is in
> millions of GM trucks. From what I can tell, they have been installing
> this system in GMC motorhomes since 2009 or earlier? You can buy it as a
> kit. EFI I think is an upgrade, it is not necessary.
> --
> Jon Roche
> 75 palm beach
> St. Cloud, MN
> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Blog update - new engine and efi start [message #340028 is a reply to message #340027] |
Wed, 09 January 2019 12:48 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Jim, that is a good point. I always forget about the 403. a EFI that was originally on a 454 engine, a person would think it pretty close to a 455. but a 403 is different.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Blog update - new engine and efi start [message #340030 is a reply to message #340028] |
Wed, 09 January 2019 17:28 |
rvanwin
Messages: 325
Registered: April 2007
Location: Battlefield, MO
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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lqqkatjon wrote on Wed, 09 January 2019 12:48Jim, that is a good point. I always forget about the 403. a EFI that was originally on a 454 engine, a person would think it pretty close to a 455. but a 403 is different.
Not a tremendous amount of difference between a 455 and 403. There is enough room for the ECM to learn the difference so a 455 program will run a 403. That being said, there are a few things that can be done to make the 403 run much better. Primary difference is in fueling. The 403 does not need quite as much fuel. When I set up a base 455 and 403, there is a parameter that sets the starting point for fuel. It defines the base pulse width, e.g., how long the injector stays open on each pulse cycle. A bunch of other stuff is added/subtracted from that base to get the final injector open time. It is not important to know what these numbers mean for this discussion, but for the 455 I start with a number of 148 and for the 403 the number is 119. Just looking at the relative difference, you can see that the 455 needs to keep the injectors open longer than a 403. The other area where I make changes for the 403 is for spark advance. The 403 can tolerate and is happier with more spark advance than the 455. So, will both run off the same program - yes, because the ECM can compensate (learn) but would I advocate the same program for both - absolutely not.
Jim says you need more smarts to run a EFI system. I don't agree with that. It is a different set of skills but no more or less difficult than learning a carb. If you have grown up messing with carbs all your life, then you will always think that is a piece of cake. Same can be said of EFI. For me, I do not have the skill set to understand and tinker with a carb. I can mess one up quicker than you can say carburetor. But I can work on an EFI system. Just different skill sets. I've known jimH for quite a while now and I can definitely say he knows far more about our engines than I will ever know. But we all have skill set that we understand better. That is the value of our community. We can each lean on the other for information in skill set areas we are not as versed in.
Oh, Jon, I think you meant to say the EBL is an optional upgrade. Yes, it is an optional upgrade. The base GM system will run in our environment very well. The problem is associated more with the starting chip for our engines and doing some fine tuning when and if that is needed. The OEM efi system is difficult to determine what is needed (data is not easily retrieved) and the process to burn a new chip is cumbersome. The EBL upgrade, in addition to a noticeable difference in how the engine runs, provides data easily and allows changes to the programs quickly. In addition, some of the fine tuning can be accomplished automatically with it's ability to update the Volumetric Efficiency tables. So, with the OEM designed self learning as well as the enhanced learning provided by the EBL, you can quickly get the system fine tuned. The EBL upgrade makes the EFI system act like a modern day factory system with avg mpg, instantaneous mpg, moles traveled as well as gallons used. Having said all of that, many have installed the EFI system (both kits and DIY), loaded the default program and run great without ever touching the system again. I probably have been running my 403 with the EBL for nearly six years without touching the system. And I "touch" the system not because I have to, but because I want to see what a specific change might do. I know several who have never touched the system since it was installed.
Randy & Margie
'77 Eleganza II '403'
Battlefield, MO
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| Re: [GMCnet] Blog update - new engine and efi start [message #340033 is a reply to message #340030] |
Wed, 09 January 2019 18:42 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Randy, thanks for the kind words. When it comes to fuel injection, I
started out with pure mechanical systems, like the Rochester system on
early Corvettes, and Volkswagen Bosch as used on Rabbits, Audi Foxes,
Squareback and Fastback VW, and Aftermarket systems like Stu Hilborn made.
Then, EPA stuck its nose in, and electricity slowly crept in to
control mechanical systems. An improvement, but just a baby step.
Evolution being what it is, computers made their debut. No longer baby
steps, but "a giant leap for mankind".
My understanding of computers at that time was Commodore 64's. You
remember them, Great harmony, bell bottom pants, boogie shoes. I learned
radio theory around vacuum tubes, not transistors.
Then came GM CCC. Stood for computer command control. Flashed out
trouble codes on the dash display on the heater/a/c controls. Had to push
the "on" and "warmer" buttons and hold them in for 5 seconds. Then count
the flashes and read the manual to interpret the stored codes. Simply
Amazin'. That system morphed into the current 747 GM computer models. Cost
GM BILLIONS OF 1985 DOLLARS to develop. They got it right the first time.
That's where I started out.
Jim Hupy
On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, 3:43 PM Randy Van Winkle lqqkatjon wrote on Wed, 09 January 2019 12:48[/color]
>> Jim, that is a good point. I always forget about the 403. a EFI that
> was originally on a 454 engine, a person would think it pretty close to a
>> 455. but a 403 is different.
>
> Not a tremendous amount of difference between a 455 and 403. There is
> enough room for the ECM to learn the difference so a 455 program will run a
> 403. That being said, there are a few things that can be done to make the
> 403 run much better. Primary difference is in fueling. The 403 does not need
> quite as much fuel. When I set up a base 455 and 403, there is a parameter
> that sets the starting point for fuel. It defines the base pulse width,
> e.g., how long the injector stays open on each pulse cycle. A bunch of
> other stuff is added/subtracted from that base to get the final injector
> open
> time. It is not important to know what these numbers mean for this
> discussion, but for the 455 I start with a number of 148 and for the 403
> the number
> is 119. Just looking at the relative difference, you can see that the 455
> needs to keep the injectors open longer than a 403. The other area where I
> make changes for the 403 is for spark advance. The 403 can tolerate and is
> happier with more spark advance than the 455. So, will both run off the
> same program - yes, because the ECM can compensate (learn) but would I
> advocate the same program for both - absolutely not.
>
> Jim says you need more smarts to run a EFI system. I don't agree with
> that. It is a different set of skills but no more or less difficult than
> learning a carb. If you have grown up messing with carbs all your life,
> then you will always think that is a piece of cake. Same can be said of EFI.
> For me, I do not have the skill set to understand and tinker with a carb.
> I can mess one up quicker than you can say carburetor. But I can work on an
> EFI system. Just different skill sets. I've known jimH for quite a while
> now and I can definitely say he knows far more about our engines than I will
> ever know. But we all have skill set that we understand better. That is
> the value of our community. We can each lean on the other for information in
> skill set areas we are not as versed in.
>
> Oh, Jon, I think you meant to say the EBL is an optional upgrade. Yes, it
> is an optional upgrade. The base GM system will run in our environment very
> well. The problem is associated more with the starting chip for our
> engines and doing some fine tuning when and if that is needed. The OEM efi
> system
> is difficult to determine what is needed (data is not easily retrieved)
> and the process to burn a new chip is cumbersome. The EBL upgrade, in
> addition
> to a noticeable difference in how the engine runs, provides data easily
> and allows changes to the programs quickly. In addition, some of the fine
> tuning can be accomplished automatically with it's ability to update the
> Volumetric Efficiency tables. So, with the OEM designed self learning as
> well
> as the enhanced learning provided by the EBL, you can quickly get the
> system fine tuned. The EBL upgrade makes the EFI system act like a modern
> day
> factory system with avg mpg, instantaneous mpg, moles traveled as well as
> gallons used. Having said all of that, many have installed the EFI system
> (both kits and DIY), loaded the default program and run great without ever
> touching the system again. I probably have been running my 403 with the EBL
> for nearly six years without touching the system. And I "touch" the system
> not because I have to, but because I want to see what a specific change
> might do. I know several who have never touched the system since it was
> installed.
>
> --
> Randy & Margie
> '77 Eleganza II '403'
> Battlefield, MO
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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