Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid
| [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #337930] |
Tue, 16 October 2018 13:25  |
JerryW
Messages: 256
Registered: August 2018
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In case that some of you have not noticed, there is a relatively new DOT brake fluid.
It is DOT 5.1. NOTE that this is NOT a silicone based fluid. It is glycol bases and compatible with DOT3 and DOT4.
DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 are both glycol-based brake fluids and are used widely in the automotive and cycle industry. They are controlled by standards set out by the Department of Transportation (DOT) - hence the name.
The main difference between these two brake fluids is in their boiling points. Part of the standards that need to be met by the manufacturers of DOT fluids are the minimum dry and wet boiling points. These are the minimum temperatures that the brake fluid must perform at before the brake fluid starts to boil, which can lead to complete brake failure
Here are the specs for the Dry Boiling Point and the Wet Boiling point
DRY WET
DOT3 401 F. 284 F.
DOT 4 446 F 311 F.
DOT 5 500 F. 356 F. (silicone)
DOT 5.1 518 F. 374 F.
Remember, these are only the minimum standards. Brake fluid manufacturers can and often do improve on these figures and it is possible to find DOT 4 brake fluid with a higher boiling point than some DOT 5.1 fluids on the market.
Since DOT 4 and 5.1 are both glycol-based brake fluids they are compatible with each other, which means they can be readily mixed without harming your brake system. It is important never to mistake DOT 5.1 (glycol-based) with DOT 5 which is silicone-based and should never be mixed with any other DOT fluid.
I recently installed Dave Lenzi’s new rear brake system and I used Wagner DOT 5.1 severe duty brake fluid.
I found it on AMAZON for $12.98 for a 32oz (1 quart) container.
This is about 1/2 the price at an auto parts store.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #337951 is a reply to message #337930] |
Wed, 17 October 2018 10:20  |
Dolph Santorine
Messages: 1236
Registered: April 2011
Location: Wheeling, WV
Karma: -41
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How do you like Dave’s rear brake system?
Dolph
DE AD0LF
Wheeling, West Virginia
1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
1-Ton, Sullybilt Bags, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission, Howell EFI & EBL
“The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"
> On Oct 16, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Emery Stora via Gmclist wrote:
>
> In case that some of you have not noticed, there is a relatively new DOT brake fluid.
>
> It is DOT 5.1. NOTE that this is NOT a silicone based fluid. It is glycol bases and compatible with DOT3 and DOT4.
>
> DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 are both glycol-based brake fluids and are used widely in the automotive and cycle industry. They are controlled by standards set out by the Department of Transportation (DOT) - hence the name.
> The main difference between these two brake fluids is in their boiling points. Part of the standards that need to be met by the manufacturers of DOT fluids are the minimum dry and wet boiling points. These are the minimum temperatures that the brake fluid must perform at before the brake fluid starts to boil, which can lead to complete brake failure
>
> Here are the specs for the Dry Boiling Point and the Wet Boiling point
>
> DRY WET
>
> DOT3 401 F. 284 F.
>
> DOT 4 446 F 311 F.
>
> DOT 5 500 F. 356 F. (silicone)
>
> DOT 5.1 518 F. 374 F.
>
> Remember, these are only the minimum standards. Brake fluid manufacturers can and often do improve on these figures and it is possible to find DOT 4 brake fluid with a higher boiling point than some DOT 5.1 fluids on the market.
>
> Since DOT 4 and 5.1 are both glycol-based brake fluids they are compatible with each other, which means they can be readily mixed without harming your brake system. It is important never to mistake DOT 5.1 (glycol-based) with DOT 5 which is silicone-based and should never be mixed with any other DOT fluid.
>
> I recently installed Dave Lenzi’s new rear brake system and I used Wagner DOT 5.1 severe duty brake fluid.
> I found it on AMAZON for $12.98 for a 32oz (1 quart) container.
> This is about 1/2 the price at an auto parts store.
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick, CO
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #337954 is a reply to message #337951] |
Wed, 17 October 2018 13:55 |
JerryW
Messages: 256
Registered: August 2018
Karma: 1
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Dolph
It is great. I replaced four rear 11” disc brakes with Chevy calipers with Dave’s 13” discs on the mid axle and no brakes at all on the rear. I also replaced my P30 master cylinder with the original to give higher pressure. It is now more like braking a car than a motorhome. A huge difference. I highly recommend it.
I’ve installed mine and another set for another GMCer. We left the rear drum brakes on his so he had parking brakes. I am waiting for Dave to release his hydraulic parking brake kit so I can add it to mine.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
> On Oct 17, 2018, at 9:20 AM, Dolph Santorine wrote:
>
> How do you like Dave’s rear brake system?
>
> Dolph
>
> DE AD0LF
>
> Wheeling, West Virginia
>
> 1977 26’ ex-PalmBeach
> 1-Ton, Sullybilt Bags, Reaction Arms, Manny Transmission, Howell EFI & EBL
>
> “The Aluminum and Fiberglass Mistress"
>
>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Emery Stora via Gmclist wrote:
>>
>> In case that some of you have not noticed, there is a relatively new DOT brake fluid.
>>
>> It is DOT 5.1. NOTE that this is NOT a silicone based fluid. It is glycol bases and compatible with DOT3 and DOT4.
>>
>> DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 are both glycol-based brake fluids and are used widely in the automotive and cycle industry. They are controlled by standards set out by the Department of Transportation (DOT) - hence the name.
>> The main difference between these two brake fluids is in their boiling points. Part of the standards that need to be met by the manufacturers of DOT fluids are the minimum dry and wet boiling points. These are the minimum temperatures that the brake fluid must perform at before the brake fluid starts to boil, which can lead to complete brake failure
>>
>> Here are the specs for the Dry Boiling Point and the Wet Boiling point
>>
>> DRY WET
>>
>> DOT3 401 F. 284 F.
>>
>> DOT 4 446 F 311 F.
>>
>> DOT 5 500 F. 356 F. (silicone)
>>
>> DOT 5.1 518 F. 374 F.
>>
>> Remember, these are only the minimum standards. Brake fluid manufacturers can and often do improve on these figures and it is possible to find DOT 4 brake fluid with a higher boiling point than some DOT 5.1 fluids on the market.
>>
>> Since DOT 4 and 5.1 are both glycol-based brake fluids they are compatible with each other, which means they can be readily mixed without harming your brake system. It is important never to mistake DOT 5.1 (glycol-based) with DOT 5 which is silicone-based and should never be mixed with any other DOT fluid.
>>
>> I recently installed Dave Lenzi’s new rear brake system and I used Wagner DOT 5.1 severe duty brake fluid.
>> I found it on AMAZON for $12.98 for a 32oz (1 quart) container.
>> This is about 1/2 the price at an auto parts store.
>>
>> Emery Stora
>> 77 Kingsley
>> Frederick, CO
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #337987 is a reply to message #337930] |
Thu, 18 October 2018 19:35 |
Scott Nutter
Messages: 782
Registered: January 2015
Location: Houston/San Diego
Karma: 4
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How many hours would you estimate for one person to do the install?
Thanks, scott
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, Dave Lenzi super duty mid axle disc brakes, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #337989 is a reply to message #337987] |
Thu, 18 October 2018 20:09 |
johnd01
Messages: 354
Registered: July 2017
Location: Sacrameot
Karma: -1
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What about leaving the rear dumbs as they are but replacing the mid drums
with 13-inch discs? I would think the mid discs would brake harder than
rear drums while the rear drums would still brake some.
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 5:35 PM Scott Nutter wrote:
> How many hours would you estimate for one person to do the install?
> Thanks, scott
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final
> drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
> installed MSD Atomic EFI
> Houston, Texas
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
*John Phillips*
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John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #337991 is a reply to message #337989] |
Thu, 18 October 2018 20:27 |
Mike Kelley
Messages: 467
Registered: February 2017
Karma: -2
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John P. & Scott N.:
Yup- that’s what Dave Lenzi recommends and sells (larger calipers) on the mid rear wheels!
Mike/The Corvair a holic
Sent from my iPhone
> On Oct 18, 2018, at 8:09 PM, John Phillips wrote:
>
> What about leaving the rear dumbs as they are but replacing the mid drums
> with 13-inch discs? I would think the mid discs would brake harder than
> rear drums while the rear drums would still brake some.
>
>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 5:35 PM Scott Nutter wrote:
>>
>> How many hours would you estimate for one person to do the install?
>> Thanks, scott
>> --
>> Scott Nutter
>> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final
>> drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
>> installed MSD Atomic EFI
>> Houston, Texas
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Phillips*
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #338015 is a reply to message #338010] |
Sat, 20 October 2018 10:25 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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John,
Rick Flanagan would like to discuss with you this issue as he and few
others have been losing at this issue and feel the same.
He is planning to test this unit and analyze what will happen in a very
hard panic test.
We know how the original Reaction Arm Sys does.
On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 5:59 AM Matt Colie wrote:
> johnd01 wrote on Thu, 18 October 2018 21:09
>> What about leaving the rear dumbs as they are but replacing the mid drums
>> with 13-inch discs? I would think the mid discs would brake harder than
>> rear drums while the rear drums would still brake some.
>> *John Phillips*
>
> John,
>
> I have done the dynamic study and with modern radial tires (not what the
> original designs were for), and the total effects of the system are such
> that
> if you do not use a reaction arm or floating backplate in the system, you
> might just as well ignore the rear-rear as it can never provide significant
> braking force. I did not do the study with limits set for higher braking
> on the intermediate wheels.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #338083 is a reply to message #337930] |
Tue, 23 October 2018 18:52 |
Scott Nutter
Messages: 782
Registered: January 2015
Location: Houston/San Diego
Karma: 4
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Emery,
I have been eyeballing Dave's rear brake system for about a year. I would like to set it up as you have yours(disc on the mid gear, and no brakes on the aft).
How many hours would you estimate to do the job with only one person doing the work?
Thanks,
Scott.
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, Dave Lenzi super duty mid axle disc brakes, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #338086 is a reply to message #338083] |
Wed, 24 October 2018 03:53 |
johnd01
Messages: 354
Registered: July 2017
Location: Sacrameot
Karma: -1
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Has anyone looked into switching wheel cylinder positions so the mids do
not lift as much leaving more weight on the third wheel?
In that configuration, the mids would be the very last to lock up in a
panic stop. I would think there would be more braking than running the back
axle brakeless unless the mids had enough pole vaulting action to unload
the back axle.
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:52 PM Scott Nutter wrote:
> Emery,
> I have been eyeballing Dave's rear brake system for about a year. I would
> like to set it up as you have yours(disc on the mid gear, and no brakes on
> the aft).
> How many hours would you estimate to do the job with only one person doing
> the work?
> Thanks,
> Scott.
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final
> drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
> installed MSD Atomic EFI
> Houston, Texas
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
*John Phillips*
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #338087 is a reply to message #338083] |
Wed, 24 October 2018 08:44 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Scott,
We installed Dave system on a coach at our work Rally this past August. I think they started on friday morning and pulled it off the lift late saturday. There was lots of show and tell, we quit working at 4 or 5 pm. And I know we were stopped when they broke off a bleeder in the rear brake drum and had to run to town to find a wheel cylinder. There was some time spent removing rear disk and rebuilding the rear brakes back to oem, and it also was swapping out the master cylinder, brake booster, ect.. up front as well. So in the end, this coach ended up with 80mm front(already was in place), dave's 13" setup on the mid, and a drum on the rear. It also has a leigh harrison 4 bag system. as I understood, that 4 bag system works best with Dave's mid disk. if people are testing, they need to see how it works with the different air bag systems as well. today, there are are 6+ different airbag systems that are out on coaches. Talking with Dave, he has his system installed on OEM airbag coaches, and can skid the tire in a panic stop. He still feels they still have vastly superior braking even with OEM air bags, but with it on the leigh harrison 4 bag system, he says it helps keep more pressure down on the tire on the ground and the harrison 4 bag system is ideal match for his braking system.
the time it takes is subjective. What take a day on one coach, may take a week on the next. At least that is my experience the past few years.
Scott Nutter wrote on Tue, 23 October 2018 18:52Emery,
I have been eyeballing Dave's rear brake system for about a year. I would like to set it up as you have yours(disc on the mid gear, and no brakes on the aft).
How many hours would you estimate to do the job with only one person doing the work?
Thanks,
Scott.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #338090 is a reply to message #338086] |
Wed, 24 October 2018 10:53 |
Ronald Pottol
Messages: 505
Registered: September 2012
Location: Redwood City, California
Karma: -2
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People have, I believe the recommendation is to run 7/8" on the rear, and 1
1/8" on the middle. The problem being is that they will only be optimal for
one traction situation, either over or under braking the axles under all
other scenarios, and never matching a reaction arm system in any event (as
that keeps the weight, and thus the traction, the same on all tires).
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:50 AM John Phillips
wrote:
> Has anyone looked into switching wheel cylinder positions so the mids do
> not lift as much leaving more weight on the third wheel?
> In that configuration, the mids would be the very last to lock up in a
> panic stop. I would think there would be more braking than running the back
> axle brakeless unless the mids had enough pole vaulting action to unload
> the back axle.
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:52 PM Scott Nutter
> wrote:
>
>> Emery,
>> I have been eyeballing Dave's rear brake system for about a year. I would
>> like to set it up as you have yours(disc on the mid gear, and no brakes
> on
>> the aft).
>> How many hours would you estimate to do the job with only one person
> doing
>> the work?
>> Thanks,
>> Scott.
>> --
>> Scott Nutter
>> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21
> final
>> drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
>> installed MSD Atomic EFI
>> Houston, Texas
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Phillips*
> _______________________________________________
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1973 26' GM outfitted
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #338099 is a reply to message #338094] |
Wed, 24 October 2018 13:53 |
JerryW
Messages: 256
Registered: August 2018
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I have always been interested in newer specifications regarding brake fluid.
I appreciate the high boiling point especially the wet boiling point.
The main difference between DOT 3, 4 and 5.1 is a different ratio of glycol and borate ester and the amount of other additives.
Borate esters added raise the boiling point above that of glycol based fluids.
DOT 5.1 has a lower viscosity at lower temperatures which gives better flow in brake lines in cold weather operation. Most people won’t notice this but it is a slight advantage.
The military is especially interested in low viscosity because of the arctic use of military vehicles. They want to be able to move their vehicles around the world without having to change to brake fluids.
Anyone that is currently using DOT 4 fluids (especially those with 500 deg point points (dry) don’t have to worry about changing to DOT 5.1. I was replacing the master cylinder as well as the rear calipers so I decided that it would be an upgrade to flush and replace all of the brake fluid so I went with the latest spec.
I have been asked to give a seminar on the history and current state of brake fluids at the GMCMI convention in Tallahassee.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
> On Oct 24, 2018, at 11:28 AM, Les Burt wrote:
>
> Emery,
> I’m not looking to start a debate, but would know why you chose DOT 5.1 over DOT 4? Are there other advantages to doing so that we are unaware of? I have glanced at spec sheets and noticed some differences, but am curious as to your professional opinion.
>
> I won’t be needing brake fluid for a good while since I stocked up back when ATE Super Blue became a banned substance. ATE Super Blue and ATE type 200(gold) carry the same specs, and have a fairly high temp spec, higher than the DOT 5.1 minimum. The ATE type 200 can still be purchased for under $12 per litre if you look hard enough.
>
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> '75 Eleganza 26'
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #338111 is a reply to message #338099] |
Wed, 24 October 2018 21:17 |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
Karma: -2
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Thank you Emery,
I was aware of the lower viscosity, as most current abs systems require LV fluid.
Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'
> On Oct 24, 2018, at 2:53 PM, Emery Stora via Gmclist wrote:
>
> I have always been interested in newer specifications regarding brake fluid.
> I appreciate the high boiling point especially the wet boiling point.
> The main difference between DOT 3, 4 and 5.1 is a different ratio of glycol and borate ester and the amount of other additives.
> Borate esters added raise the boiling point above that of glycol based fluids.
> DOT 5.1 has a lower viscosity at lower temperatures which gives better flow in brake lines in cold weather operation. Most people won’t notice this but it is a slight advantage.
> The military is especially interested in low viscosity because of the arctic use of military vehicles. They want to be able to move their vehicles around the world without having to change to brake fluids.
> Anyone that is currently using DOT 4 fluids (especially those with 500 deg point points (dry) don’t have to worry about changing to DOT 5.1. I was replacing the master cylinder as well as the rear calipers so I decided that it would be an upgrade to flush and replace all of the brake fluid so I went with the latest spec.
>
> I have been asked to give a seminar on the history and current state of brake fluids at the GMCMI convention in Tallahassee.
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick, CO
>
>> On Oct 24, 2018, at 11:28 AM, Les Burt wrote:
>>
>> Emery,
>> I’m not looking to start a debate, but would know why you chose DOT 5.1 over DOT 4? Are there other advantages to doing so that we are unaware of? I have glanced at spec sheets and noticed some differences, but am curious as to your professional opinion.
>>
>> I won’t be needing brake fluid for a good while since I stocked up back when ATE Super Blue became a banned substance. ATE Super Blue and ATE type 200(gold) carry the same specs, and have a fairly high temp spec, higher than the DOT 5.1 minimum. The ATE type 200 can still be purchased for under $12 per litre if you look hard enough.
>>
>>
>> Les Burt
>> Montreal
>> '75 Eleganza 26'
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #338113 is a reply to message #338099] |
Thu, 25 October 2018 09:47 |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
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I did some web crawling looking for info on Borate Esters and its use in brake fluid. I was mainly seeking info on the differences between DOT 4 & 5.1
From what I read, borate ester provides the following:
- increases boiling point
- can bind water and still retain the boiling point
- improves lubrication qualities
- may cause compatibility issues with some rubber components on older vehicles originally designed to use DOT 3 fluid.
As is typical with information found on the web, there is a fair amount of conflicting info. One such conflict I noticed was concerning moisture absorption rates.
Some brake fluid manufacturers state that DOT 4 fluid will absorb moisture at a faster rate than DOT 3, while a few others have stated the opposite.
From what I interpret, the borate ester content is the reason, yet there is no consensus on whether the borate ester increases or decreases the moisture absorption rate.
Since chemistry was not my strong point in school, I have a few questions that someone here might be able to answer.
1) How does borate ester affect moisture absorption?
2) if DOT 4 does absorb moisture at a faster rate, should fluid changes be done more often? The fluid manufacturers are all over the map on this. Logically, more often is better.
3) Since DOT 5.1 apparently has a higher borate ester content than DOT 4, wouldn’t it be more susceptible to moisture absorption, requiring more frequent changes? Again, the fluid manufacturers recommendations are varied.
Here are a few links for reference:
(Chosen to show the conflicting info, and not for accuracy)
https://www.lubricants.total.com/brake-fluid-types
http://www.onshoreoils.com.au/uploads/BULLETIN/Tech%20Bulletin%20TB005%20Sept%202014.pdf
https://penriteoil.com.au/assets/tech_pdfs/Brake%20Fluid%20Testers%20-%20June%202017.pdf
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/brake-fluid
https://www.abs-bv.nl/tl_files/content_resources/images/content/Leaflet_Use%20the%20correct%20brake%20fluid%20-%20721611_721612.pdf
Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #338114 is a reply to message #338113] |
Thu, 25 October 2018 10:20 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Of all the legitimate things that a person could/should concern themselves
with on a GMC motorhome, I would think straying very far from what the
engineers who designed the things recommended, wouldn't be the best course
of action.
Obviously, some things, like E.P. greases, have improved in 40+ years,
and some things, like today's gasolines, have gotten worse. But, raw rubber
parts, like in brake systems, have been upgraded to hypalon, neoprene,
teflon, etc.
It behooves us to observe things like deterioration of things like
fuel hoses, and rubber parts throughout our coaches.
Also, fluid change intervals are important. Anti-freeze, ATF, Gear
lubes, Brake fluids, etc. are important.
I would caution folks about straying too far away from DOT 3 brake
fluid, particularly where SILICONE is involved.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 7:48 AM Les Burt wrote:
> I did some web crawling looking for info on Borate Esters and its use in
> brake fluid. I was mainly seeking info on the differences between DOT 4 &
> 5.1
>
> From what I read, borate ester provides the following:
> - increases boiling point
> - can bind water and still retain the boiling point
> - improves lubrication qualities
> - may cause compatibility issues with some rubber components on older
> vehicles originally designed to use DOT 3 fluid.
>
> As is typical with information found on the web, there is a fair amount of
> conflicting info. One such conflict I noticed was concerning moisture
> absorption rates.
>
> Some brake fluid manufacturers state that DOT 4 fluid will absorb moisture
> at a faster rate than DOT 3, while a few others have stated the opposite.
>
> From what I interpret, the borate ester content is the reason, yet there
> is no consensus on whether the borate ester increases or decreases the
> moisture absorption rate.
>
> Since chemistry was not my strong point in school, I have a few questions
> that someone here might be able to answer.
>
> 1) How does borate ester affect moisture absorption?
>
> 2) if DOT 4 does absorb moisture at a faster rate, should fluid changes be
> done more often? The fluid manufacturers are all over the map on this.
> Logically, more often is better.
>
> 3) Since DOT 5.1 apparently has a higher borate ester content than DOT 4,
> wouldn’t it be more susceptible to moisture absorption, requiring more
> frequent changes? Again, the fluid manufacturers recommendations are
> varied.
>
> Here are a few links for reference:
> (Chosen to show the conflicting info, and not for accuracy)
>
> https://www.lubricants.total.com/brake-fluid-types
>
>
> http://www.onshoreoils.com.au/uploads/BULLETIN/Tech%20Bulletin%20TB005%20Sept%202014.pdf
>
>
> https://penriteoil.com.au/assets/tech_pdfs/Brake%20Fluid%20Testers%20-%20June%202017.pdf
>
>
> http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/brake-fluid
>
>
> https://www.abs-bv.nl/tl_files/content_resources/images/content/Leaflet_Use%20the%20correct%20brake%20fluid%20-%20721611_721612.pdf
>
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> '75 Eleganza 26'
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] DOT 5.1 brake fluid [message #338298 is a reply to message #337930] |
Fri, 02 November 2018 13:55 |
NextGenGMC
Messages: 146
Registered: December 2017
Location: Washington State
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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I was planning on doing a brake fluid flush on my GMC. I do not know what brake fluid PO used in it. The manual calls for DOT3 brake fluid, so that's what I was planning on using. I recall seeing many times recommendation to not mix DOT3 and DOT4 fluids. Do you know if I can safely do a "replacement" of fluid to DOT4 when I'm performing the flush, or is it best to keep it at DOT3? Does OEM master cylinder "like" DOT4 or is there some adverse reactions in the rubber component to the different fluid?
Vadim Jitkov
'76 Glenbrook 26'
Pullman, WA
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