Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching.
| [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching. [message #336575] |
Fri, 31 August 2018 21:07  |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
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Thank god that the general public is demanding more efficient, and cleaner burning engines. As our administration isn't. And the manufactures are still responding to the public. The piston will still go up, and down for a while. The camshaft will be the next major part to go. The mechanical parts now used for valve operation. Just can't be controlled to the extent that will be required. The valves will need to be computer controlled. An electric solenoid of some sort will be needed. I drought that the type of valve now used. Will be up to the task. Due to it's mass. And the combustion chamber turbulence it creates. As I have reservations that this turbulence issue can be resolved as is. Electronic fuel injection well need major changes to match up to the new combustion chamber designs. As the spark plug will no longer be needed. The crankshaft, and rods will have a more sleek shape. To reduce the load resistance to rotation that the oil spray in the crankcase creates. This is my crystal ball of what's to come. It's exciting to me. You'd never have any hint that I'm into engines. Bob Dunahugh A true engine NUT CASE
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching. [message #336589 is a reply to message #336575] |
Sat, 01 September 2018 09:06  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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BobDunahugh wrote on Fri, 31 August 2018 22:07Thank god that the general public is demanding more efficient, and cleaner burning engines. As our administration isn't. And the manufactures are still responding to the public. The piston will still go up, and down for a while. The camshaft will be the next major part to go. The mechanical parts now used for valve operation. Just can't be controlled to the extent that will be required. The valves will need to be computer controlled. An electric solenoid of some sort will be needed. I drought that the type of valve now used. Will be up to the task. Due to it's mass. And the combustion chamber turbulence it creates. As I have reservations that this turbulence issue can be resolved as is. Electronic fuel injection well need major changes to match up to the new combustion chamber designs. As the spark plug will no longer be needed. The crankshaft, and rods will have a more sleek shape. To reduce the load resistance to rotation that the oil spray in the crankcase creates. This is my crystal ball of what's to come. It's exciting to me. You'd never have any hint that I'm into engines. Bob Dunahugh A true engine NUT CASE
Bob,
Actually Bob, the prior administration was, but they were doing it with a 54.5 CAFE. A recent engineering level analysis said that this was doable only if the manufactures built a large portion of the fleet as electric or augmented hybrid and gave them away and then sold every fuel dependent passcar or light truck for enough to cover the cost.
You are real close, but the camless engines have been in F1 cars for a few years. Complexity and durability have plagued them in the passcar market. The power required to run the electric desmodromic (solenoid to open and another to close) has been a problem. Variable valve timing has been around for a long time. My 1995 Honda Accord is a VVT engine.
As to combustion chamber turbulence, that has been controlled for years and even in something as old as the inherited Accord, it uses the controlled timing of the intake valve to cause varied combustion chamber swirl.
VW is today offering an engine that has a different compression and expansion ratios. Without going into the actual thermodynamics of a spark ignition cycle, I can't quickly explain the value except to say that the expansion ratio is really more important for efficiency than is the compression ratio.
So, you see, you are looking in the right direction.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching. [message #336645 is a reply to message #336589] |
Sun, 02 September 2018 14:23 |
Joe Weir
Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC
Karma: 7
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Matt Colie wrote on Sat, 01 September 2018 09:06BobDunahugh wrote on Fri, 31 August 2018 22:07Thank god that the general public is demanding more efficient, and cleaner burning engines. As our administration isn't.
Actually Bob, the prior administration was, but they were doing it with a 54.5 CAFE.
At the end of the day, it has to make sense for everyone. Maybe it was silliness of the 55mph Federal speed limit, but I have a real aversion to Federal mandates concerning fuel economy.
It is no secret the the public wants better fuel economy - who doesn't? If manufacturers have to be bludgeoned with tax incentives to pursue that very obvious market need, I think they deserve to go belly up.
Look at it this way - there is no federal mandate for horsepower increases, yet we have arguably the most powerful lineup of new automobiles ever available - across all manufacturers.
This is an exciting time for engine developments. Imagine what we can do if we keep the federal government from "helping".
76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center...
Columbia, SC.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching. [message #336660 is a reply to message #336657] |
Sun, 02 September 2018 19:06 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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RF_Burns wrote on Sun, 02 September 2018 17:36Matt,
Isn't the I/C gasoline engine with its throttle body butterfly to control the amount of air/fuel mixture entering the combustion chamber, already a variable compression vs exhaust stroke? With the throttle closed you get very little air/fuel in the chamber and very little compression pressure vs wide open throttle. They could limit the maximum compression pressure buy limiting the electronic throttle control opening. I have had several GMC and Chev pickup trucks since they introduced electronic throttle control and they all run like a mid 70's pollution controlled vehicle. Step on the gas and it bogs while its little mind decides what to do (I get in my pre electronic throttle 2005 pickup and give myself whiplash!)
Or is there something I am missing?
Bruce,
You are only missing a little bit.
The problem is that by controlling with the throttle plate, you are reducing the power out put by causing pumping losses - making it less efficient. If you can open and close the intake valve so as to cause the charge pressure before compression to be what you want, you can still reduce the power output and not hammer the engine efficiency.
And yes, that bog it the big complaint about the drive-by-wire engines.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching. [message #336716 is a reply to message #336575] |
Tue, 04 September 2018 08:05 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Compression ignition? Quite a cost savings >if< the required upgrades to handle ther hugher compression don't overcome the savings. The improvement in design over 45 years is apparent in two cars I've run past 100K miles. The Datsun made 96HP by 1968 measurement standards. The Kia makes 135 by 2012 measurement standards. Both displacing 1.6 liters. Two cmas instead of one, loss of the distributor, direct injection,makes a difference. Datsun was 2K 1968 dollars, Kia was 14K 2012 dollars. Anybody know what those prices would be in constant dollars? Datsun did 25 MPG, Kia does 35. Kia is 550 pounds heavier as well.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching. [message #336733 is a reply to message #336716] |
Tue, 04 September 2018 16:36 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Karma: 3
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$2000 in 1968 inflated to 2012 ($13,300):
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=2000&year1=196801&year2=201201
The horsepower difference you quoted is actually quite a bit larger than you’re numbers suggest - the 1968 value would be “gross” HP vs the 2012 “net”. The Datsun net value is probably around 70-80 HP!
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
> On Sep 4, 2018, at 10:35 AM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Compression ignition? Quite a cost savings >if< the required upgrades to handle ther hugher compression don't overcome the savings. The improvement
> in design over 45 years is apparent in two cars I've run past 100K miles. The Datsun made 96HP by 1968 measurement standards. The Kia makes 135 by
> 2012 measurement standards. Both displacing 1.6 liters. Two cmas instead of one, loss of the distributor, direct injection,makes a difference.
> Datsun was 2K 1968 dollars, Kia was 14K 2012 dollars. Anybody know what those prices would be in constant dollars? Datsun did 25 MPG, Kia does 35.
> Kia is 550 pounds heavier as well.
>
> --johnny
> --
> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
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Rob -
Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching. [message #336760 is a reply to message #336755] |
Wed, 05 September 2018 15:05 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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"It is no secret the the public wants better fuel economy - who doesn't? "
What planet do you live on? surely not the same as me.
And the current admin is still increasing the CAFE, they just caped it at 2020 levels. The previous admins attempt at forcing the issue was just virtue signaling at it's finest. they new it would never stick
Maybe people whine about fuel economy, but they don't show it in their car purchases.
I see a LOT of trucks, SUVs and crossovers on the roads, only a few economy cars. People don't give a damn about economy untill they are at the pump in their new $70,000 Suburban and complain about a $100 gas bill. 2 seconds later they forget about it.
If you want to increase CAFE you're not going to do it by listening to the consumer
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Johnny Bridges via Gmclist
Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2018 2:40 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Johnny Bridges
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching.
Thanks Rob. Essentially the same bux for a car which certainly shows the efficiencies throughout the car industry in 45 years. Datsun had a 4 speed
and though they survived being T-boned, I think the Kia would of done a better job.
--johnny
--
76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
"I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching. [message #342107 is a reply to message #342104] |
Sun, 31 March 2019 15:59 |
Olly Schmidt
Messages: 1265
Registered: February 2014
Location: Germany and Scottsville, ...
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On 31.03.19 21:48, Grant Schaffer via Gmclist wrote:
> We need an electric motor conversion for our coaches!!!
As I have said before:
Let's start with adding in-wheel electric motors to the rear wheels
first. Like the setup the Michigan Technological University, Houghton,
MI, did. It will give you better traction when moving off any sandy
beaches, and allows us to reduce the city gas consumption, and still
give us the long driving range.
--
Best regards
Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
'76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
'73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
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Best regards
Olly Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x18a9 3a1f 4196 bf22
'76a Eleganza II, VA
'73 Sequoia, SH, Germany
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching. [message #342108 is a reply to message #342107] |
Sun, 31 March 2019 16:22 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Obviously, hybrid vehicles have been with us for a long time (think
diesel/electric locomotives). They run the diesel at the peak of
efficiency, and power the electric motors to drive the wheels. Efficiency
on these things is very high. But, not for everybody.
Right now, electric vehicles are limited by battery technology and
recharge time, to say nothing about cost per mile.
In Oregon, we have a mega-dairy with 70,000 cows. They have a manure
lagoon right now with over 2 million gallons of manure slurry waiting to
get converted to methane gas on site. Due to sweetheart environmental
deals, the corporation that manages the dairy is allowed to burn that
methane gas to produce electricity on-site and sell it into the hydro power
grid for 10 times what the hydro producers do. Even at that, they only
break even. Wind turbines, same ridiculous deal, they don't make money
either, and in calm weather produce nothing.
Jim Hupy
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019, 2:00 PM Peer Oliver Schmidt via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> On 31.03.19 21:48, Grant Schaffer via Gmclist wrote:
>> We need an electric motor conversion for our coaches!!!
>
> As I have said before:
>
> Let's start with adding in-wheel electric motors to the rear wheels
> first. Like the setup the Michigan Technological University, Houghton,
> MI, did. It will give you better traction when moving off any sandy
> beaches, and allows us to reduce the city gas consumption, and still
> give us the long driving range.
>
> --
> Best regards
>
> Peer Oliver Schmidt
> PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
> '76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
> '73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching. [message #342122 is a reply to message #342108] |
Sun, 31 March 2019 22:08 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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We found that the 16" wheels are too small for that type of unit
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:24 PM James Hupy via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Obviously, hybrid vehicles have been with us for a long time (think
> diesel/electric locomotives). They run the diesel at the peak of
> efficiency, and power the electric motors to drive the wheels. Efficiency
> on these things is very high. But, not for everybody.
> Right now, electric vehicles are limited by battery technology and
> recharge time, to say nothing about cost per mile.
> In Oregon, we have a mega-dairy with 70,000 cows. They have a manure
> lagoon right now with over 2 million gallons of manure slurry waiting to
> get converted to methane gas on site. Due to sweetheart environmental
> deals, the corporation that manages the dairy is allowed to burn that
> methane gas to produce electricity on-site and sell it into the hydro power
> grid for 10 times what the hydro producers do. Even at that, they only
> break even. Wind turbines, same ridiculous deal, they don't make money
> either, and in calm weather produce nothing.
> Jim Hupy
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019, 2:00 PM Peer Oliver Schmidt via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> On 31.03.19 21:48, Grant Schaffer via Gmclist wrote:
>>> We need an electric motor conversion for our coaches!!!
>>
>> As I have said before:
>>
>> Let's start with adding in-wheel electric motors to the rear wheels
>> first. Like the setup the Michigan Technological University, Houghton,
>> MI, did. It will give you better traction when moving off any sandy
>> beaches, and allows us to reduce the city gas consumption, and still
>> give us the long driving range.
>>
>> --
>> Best regards
>>
>> Peer Oliver Schmidt
>> PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
>> '76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
>> '73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching. [message #342203 is a reply to message #342108] |
Tue, 02 April 2019 21:44 |
Inline Technologies
Messages: 11
Registered: September 2018
Karma: 1
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Junior Member |
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Vaporize the gas. Nuff said
Ken Kruckeberg
The Shirt Factory
806-352-9262
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy via Gmclist
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2019 4:23 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: James Hupy
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Gasoline engines aren't at the end of there development. The future is fast approching.
Obviously, hybrid vehicles have been with us for a long time (think diesel/electric locomotives). They run the diesel at the peak of efficiency, and power the electric motors to drive the wheels. Efficiency on these things is very high. But, not for everybody.
Right now, electric vehicles are limited by battery technology and recharge time, to say nothing about cost per mile.
In Oregon, we have a mega-dairy with 70,000 cows. They have a manure lagoon right now with over 2 million gallons of manure slurry waiting to get converted to methane gas on site. Due to sweetheart environmental deals, the corporation that manages the dairy is allowed to burn that methane gas to produce electricity on-site and sell it into the hydro power grid for 10 times what the hydro producers do. Even at that, they only break even. Wind turbines, same ridiculous deal, they don't make money either, and in calm weather produce nothing.
Jim Hupy
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019, 2:00 PM Peer Oliver Schmidt via Gmclist < gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> On 31.03.19 21:48, Grant Schaffer via Gmclist wrote:
>> We need an electric motor conversion for our coaches!!!
>
> As I have said before:
>
> Let's start with adding in-wheel electric motors to the rear wheels
> first. Like the setup the Michigan Technological University, Houghton,
> MI, did. It will give you better traction when moving off any sandy
> beaches, and allows us to reduce the city gas consumption, and still
> give us the long driving range.
>
> --
> Best regards
>
> Peer Oliver Schmidt
> PGP KeyID: 0x4196BF22
> '76a 26' Eleganza II - Virginia, US
> '73 23' Sequoia - Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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