Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
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| [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332167] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 11:29  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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G'day,
I decided to create a new thread with a Subject which can be easily found on the GMC net.
At the outset I would like to state that empirical engineering has demonstrated that the 1 ton suspension works. For those of you
who are not familiar with that term:
empirical em·pir·i·cal (em-per'i-k?l) adj. Relying on or derived from observation or experiment.
There are some differences which should be noted. If anyone disagrees with what I note below PLEASE call me to task!
1) GM never made a vehicle that used the 1 ton front wheel drive as the sole means of drive; the system was used in 4 wheel drive
vehicles.
2) The steering axis of the OEM and 1 ton is different; here's a link to a Y-Tube video that explains steering axis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUcZ63unEyU
3) Here's a link to a GMC Drawing which shows the relationship of the steering axis inclination and tire contact patch:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56759-steering-axis.html
4) The 1 ton uses a spacer which as I understand it is 4 inches wide which moves the wheels outwards and puts the front wheels in
line with the rear wheels. It moves the contact patch of the tire outwards away from the steering axis.
http://machinesoflovinggrace.net/gmc/frontend/Images/Picture%20270-trim.jpg
5) The relationship of the upper and lower control arms are changed because the upper and lower ball joint tapers on the 1 ton are
further apart than the OEM knuckle. This has an effect on camber; at a GMCMI Convention Bob Drewes gave a presentation showing how
he changed the upper control arms to reduce the camber change.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6613-bob-drewes-1-ton-installation.html
6) The location that the outer tie rod end connecting tapers are different:
http://machinesoflovinggrace.net/gmc/frontend/Images/Picture%20107-trim.jpg
Please note that I have not made ANY statements regarding the affects (or is it effects) of these differences.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332175 is a reply to message #332167] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 13:43  |
bwevers
Messages: 597
Registered: October 2010
Location: San Jose
Karma: 5
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Rob,
Thank you for the thread start.
I believe that the steering axis on the One-Ton with the spacers
is affected by having the large brake calipers with the 16 inch wheel.
If a larger wheel was used, it might require less than a 4 inch spacer.
But rumor has it that 17 inch wheels still require a big spacer.
And the tires would be more expensive with larger wheels.
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332176 is a reply to message #332167] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 13:49 |
bwevers
Messages: 597
Registered: October 2010
Location: San Jose
Karma: 5
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With regard to:
6) The location that the outer tie rod end connecting tapers are different:
I believe that the raised outer tie rod end on the One-Ton, causes a toe-in condition during jounce.
But this is counteracted by the negative camber change (from non-parallel control arms).
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332178 is a reply to message #332176] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 14:11 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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What if only one wheel hits the bump?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bill Wevers
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 1:50 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
With regard to:
6) The location that the outer tie rod end connecting tapers are different:
I believe that the raised outer tie rod end on the One-Ton, causes a toe-in condition during jounce.
But this is counteracted by the negative camber change (from non-parallel control arms).
--
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332179 is a reply to message #332176] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 14:18 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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do we know what the camber change is on the unmodified 1 ton?
The negative camber gain doesn't bother me, better than positive like on old vettes!
Toe in on bump is bad bad bad leads to oversteer, should be toe out. I would bet any handling complaints come from bump steer not camber gain, the tie rod location on the 1 ton is way higher, it's gonna toe in like mad
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Bill Wevers
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 1:49 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
With regard to:
6) The location that the outer tie rod end connecting tapers are different:
I believe that the raised outer tie rod end on the One-Ton, causes a toe-in condition during jounce.
But this is counteracted by the negative camber change (from non-parallel control arms).
--
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332181 is a reply to message #332179] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 14:20 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
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Actually the bump steer change would be more important that the camber gain numbers.
Camber gain is good in small quanties
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Keith V
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 2:18 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
do we know what the camber change is on the unmodified 1 ton?
The negative camber gain doesn't bother me, better than positive like on old vettes!
Toe in on bump is bad bad bad leads to oversteer, should be toe out. I would bet any handling complaints come from bump steer not camber gain, the tie rod location on the 1 ton is way higher, it's gonna toe in like mad
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Bill Wevers
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 1:49 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
With regard to:
6) The location that the outer tie rod end connecting tapers are different:
I believe that the raised outer tie rod end on the One-Ton, causes a toe-in condition during jounce.
But this is counteracted by the negative camber change (from non-parallel control arms).
--
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332182 is a reply to message #332178] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 14:27 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Rob, have you ever seen a public highway curve that held it's radius
constant throughout the entire curve? Or it's plane? Or it's surface
traction? I haven't. Or, for that matter, any racetrack surfaces, either.
So, we are constantly bombarded by variables and hypotheticals when it
comes to alignment specs. Look at the frame lugs on a 1973 GMC where the
control arms attach, and compare it to later coaches. They are most
certainly different. Why? Well for one thing, Radial tires made their debut
in production somewhere in that 5 year time frame that our coaches were
produced. And, the specs changed. So, more variables enter the mix. W.T.H.?
Just sayin'.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Wed, May 16, 2018, 12:12 PM Rob Mueller wrote:
> What if only one wheel hits the bump?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bill
> Wevers
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 1:50 PM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
>
> With regard to:
> 6) The location that the outer tie rod end connecting tapers are different:
>
> I believe that the raised outer tie rod end on the One-Ton, causes a
> toe-in condition during jounce.
> But this is counteracted by the negative camber change (from non-parallel
> control arms).
>
> --
> Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
> 1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
> 455 F Block, G heads
> San Jose
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332184 is a reply to message #332178] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 15:06 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Rob,
That happens everytime you turn a corner, if you toe in on bump the outer wheel, the one that matters as it's loaded, turns in more than you expect, that causes the coach to roll more, steer more, roll more...
If it's just a pothole or dead cat it will just wiggle a little
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Rob Mueller
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 2:11 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
What if only one wheel hits the bump?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bill Wevers
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 1:50 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
With regard to:
6) The location that the outer tie rod end connecting tapers are different:
I believe that the raised outer tie rod end on the One-Ton, causes a toe-in condition during jounce.
But this is counteracted by the negative camber change (from non-parallel control arms).
--
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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GMCnet mailing list
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_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332186 is a reply to message #332167] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 15:23 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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I am just curious:
is there different 1 ton kits available, are they still currently available, and what are the differences:
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/635
and
http://mannystransmission.biz/products/
fYI- the manny link above looks like his site is going dark June 18th 2018.
Rumor has it, Manny maybe scaling back, I should maybe call him for the answer, but I am not in the current market to be buying a 1 ton. If Manny is scaling back, what parts of his kit that are unique to him, that will no longer be available if one is to need anything 5-10 years into the future? We all know the bearings are out there, how about if a control arm or CV joint bends or breaks?
FYI- from Manny's site:
2018 Update
As of June 18, 2018, this domain will not be renewed and the website will be discontinued from use. Friends of Manny may send an email to him with wishes regarding his retirement. Click on the Home tab above and drag down to Contact to send a greeting. Note that some fields are required in order to successfully send a note. As a stated above, the removal of this website from the Internet is just a step in the direction of change for Manny's business engagement which, in no way, is an official statement of retirement. To view comments posted on Facebook regarding the change in business operation, see Comments.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
[Updated on: Wed, 16 May 2018 15:25] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332187 is a reply to message #332181] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 15:44 |
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GMC2000
Messages: 193
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Location: Georgia
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yeah, the OEM specs would be interesting for a real comparison. figured someone would add them into the link Burns added to the other thread at some point. that seem to be a good illustrator for those not familiar with the geometry changes. sidejacked.
Keith V wrote on Wed, 16 May 2018 14:20Actually the bump steer change would be more important that the camber gain numbers.
Camber gain is good in small quanties
both changes would occur on bumps and both would cause a lateral movement on the contact patch. this is why the OEM numbers would be helpful to see the camber change, if any, close to ride height.
if we are already walking on egg shells, or rolling in wet grass in this instance, any change laterally is gonna break what little traction there was.
another situation I can think of since its such a heavy and long machine is navigating a steep intersection or driveway from a standstill. add in some rain and maybe even some spilled fluids that have all but soaked in until the rain brought them back to the surface, and I can foresee some difficulties with traction.
youre already asking alot as is being front wheel drive.
I have yet to drive one enough to actually see for myself how handicapped the GMC is in this area but as I posted in the original thread that spawned this one, other previous owners have mentioned it more than once when I bring up GMCs.
at some point I hope to get one and see for myself how it really is. I think traction control and ABS would be perfect upgrades. easier said than done but doesnt seem unrealistic at all to me.
until we have the OEM data, we really have nothing to compare. we may be pointing out issues on the 1-ton that are actually better than OEM, who knows?
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332188 is a reply to message #332186] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 16:03 |
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Cesar Carrasco
Messages: 30
Registered: September 2017
Location: Riverside, California
Karma: 0
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I've been contemplating an 1 ton grade as well. Which one is better,
Applied's 1 ton or Manny's 1 ton?
On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Jon Roche wrote:
> I am just curious:
>
> is there different 1 ton kits available, are they still currently
> available, and what are the differences:
>
> http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/635
>
> and
>
> http://mannystransmission.biz/products/
>
> Rumor has it, Manny maybe scaling back, I should maybe call him for the
> answer, but I am not in the current market to be buying a 1 ton. If Manny
> is scaling back, what parts of his kit that are unique to him, that will
> no longer be available if one is to need anything 5-10 years into the
> future? We all know the bearings are out there, how about if a control
> arm or CV joint bends or breaks?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jon Roche
> 75 palm beach
> St. Cloud, MN
> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332189 is a reply to message #332182] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 16:20 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
I agree with you 100%; however, would not both the OEM and 1 Ton going down the same road be affected by the same variables?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 2:27 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
Rob, have you ever seen a public highway curve that held it's radius
constant throughout the entire curve? Or it's plane? Or it's surface
traction? I haven't. Or, for that matter, any racetrack surfaces, either.
So, we are constantly bombarded by variables and hypotheticals when it
comes to alignment specs. Look at the frame lugs on a 1973 GMC where the
control arms attach, and compare it to later coaches. They are most
certainly different. Why? Well for one thing, Radial tires made their debut
in production somewhere in that 5 year time frame that our coaches were
produced. And, the specs changed. So, more variables enter the mix. W.T.H.?
Just sayin'.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332190 is a reply to message #332189] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 16:35 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Yes, they would.
But, there obviously is some concern that the 1 ton, because it is
different than the collection of GM assembly line reject parts they built
the GMC out of, is somehow inferior to that.
I don't know, but, I have not seen any broken 1 ton control arms or
roller bearings falling out of the hub/knuckle assembly yet. Might we see
some failures down the road? Wouldn't suprise me if it happened. Someone
here once said that anytime you idiot proof a part, along comes a better
idiot to prove me wrong.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Wed, May 16, 2018, 2:21 PM Rob Mueller wrote:
> Jim,
>
> I agree with you 100%; however, would not both the OEM and 1 Ton going
> down the same road be affected by the same variables?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James
> Hupy
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 2:27 PM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
>
> Rob, have you ever seen a public highway curve that held it's radius
> constant throughout the entire curve? Or it's plane? Or it's surface
> traction? I haven't. Or, for that matter, any racetrack surfaces, either.
> So, we are constantly bombarded by variables and hypotheticals when it
> comes to alignment specs. Look at the frame lugs on a 1973 GMC where the
> control arms attach, and compare it to later coaches. They are most
> certainly different. Why? Well for one thing, Radial tires made their debut
> in production somewhere in that 5 year time frame that our coaches were
> produced. And, the specs changed. So, more variables enter the mix. W.T.H.?
> Just sayin'.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332194 is a reply to message #332190] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 17:22 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
I am sorry to say that this response is beneath you!
"because it is different than the collection of GM assembly line reject parts they built the GMC out of, is somehow inferior to
that."
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James Hupy
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 4:36 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
Yes, they would.
But, there obviously is some concern that the 1 ton, because it is
different than the collection of GM assembly line reject parts they built
the GMC out of, is somehow inferior to that.
I don't know, but, I have not seen any broken 1 ton control arms or
roller bearings falling out of the hub/knuckle assembly yet. Might we see
some failures down the road? Wouldn't suprise me if it happened. Someone
here once said that anytime you idiot proof a part, along comes a better
idiot to prove me wrong.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Wed, May 16, 2018, 2:21 PM Rob Mueller wrote:
> Jim,
>
> I agree with you 100%; however, would not both the OEM and 1 Ton going
> down the same road be affected by the same variables?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of James
> Hupy
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 2:27 PM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison
>
> Rob, have you ever seen a public highway curve that held it's radius
> constant throughout the entire curve? Or it's plane? Or it's surface
> traction? I haven't. Or, for that matter, any racetrack surfaces, either.
> So, we are constantly bombarded by variables and hypotheticals when it
> comes to alignment specs. Look at the frame lugs on a 1973 GMC where the
> control arms attach, and compare it to later coaches. They are most
> certainly different. Why? Well for one thing, Radial tires made their debut
> in production somewhere in that 5 year time frame that our coaches were
> produced. And, the specs changed. So, more variables enter the mix. W.T.H.?
> Just sayin'.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332197 is a reply to message #332167] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 18:20 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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The traction on my coach is putrid. Wet grass or a hill on a gravel road will halt it. Surprisingly... and I'd be interested in theories as to why - my 23' had very much better traction. Same tires (Cooper HT3s) on both coaches. Both front ends tight. Wonder why.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332198 is a reply to message #332197] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 18:27 |
 |
ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
|
Senior Member |
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Johnny,
I don't know about you, but over time I've added some extra weight to my back end. This might have an effect on traction ;-)
Larry Davick
Fremont, California
A Mystery Machine
'76 (ish) Palm Beach
> On May 16, 2018 at 4:20 PM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist wrote:
>
>
> The traction on my coach is putrid. Wet grass or a hill on a gravel road will halt it. Surprisingly... and I'd be interested in theories as to why -
> my 23' had very much better traction. Same tires (Cooper HT3s) on both coaches. Both front ends tight. Wonder why.
>
> --johnny
> --
> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332199 is a reply to message #332198] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 19:05 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
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Might have the stock open diff and not the Kanotomato Kim slip or the
planetary 3:21. I have the stock FD in my current 77 eleganza and it will
climb gravel hills even pulling my small enclosed trailer but momentum ,
line choice and throttle control are crucial.
Sully
77 eleganza 2
Bellevue
On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 4:28 PM Larry Davick wrote:
> Johnny,
>
>
> I don't know about you, but over time I've added some extra weight to my
> back end. This might have an effect on traction ;-)
>
>
> Larry Davick
> Fremont, California
> A Mystery Machine
> '76 (ish) Palm Beach
>
>> On May 16, 2018 at 4:20 PM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist wrote:
>>
>>
>> The traction on my coach is putrid. Wet grass or a hill on a gravel
> road will halt it. Surprisingly... and I'd be interested in theories as to
> why -
>> my 23' had very much better traction. Same tires (Cooper HT3s) on
> both coaches. Both front ends tight. Wonder why.
>>
>> --johnny
>> --
>> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>> Braselton, Ga.
>> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer
> to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332200 is a reply to message #332199] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 19:25 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Our 1 ton has some mods that we feel is important.
If not than it is your choice.
On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:05 PM, Todd Sullivan wrote:
> Might have the stock open diff and not the Kanotomato Kim slip or the
> planetary 3:21. I have the stock FD in my current 77 eleganza and it will
> climb gravel hills even pulling my small enclosed trailer but momentum ,
> line choice and throttle control are crucial.
>
> Sully
> 77 eleganza 2
> Bellevue
>
> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 4:28 PM Larry Davick wrote:
>
>> Johnny,
>>
>>
>> I don't know about you, but over time I've added some extra weight to my
>> back end. This might have an effect on traction ;-)
>>
>>
>> Larry Davick
>> Fremont, California
>> A Mystery Machine
>> '76 (ish) Palm Beach
>>
>>> On May 16, 2018 at 4:20 PM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The traction on my coach is putrid. Wet grass or a hill on a gravel
>> road will halt it. Surprisingly... and I'd be interested in theories as
> to
>> why -
>>> my 23' had very much better traction. Same tires (Cooper HT3s) on
>> both coaches. Both front ends tight. Wonder why.
>>>
>>> --johnny
>>> --
>>> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>>> Braselton, Ga.
>>> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer
>> to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] OEM / 1 Ton Front Suspension Comparison [message #332202 is a reply to message #332179] |
Wed, 16 May 2018 20:38 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
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If the upper arm bushing points are low, negative camber will increase on
bump.
The tie rods looked pretty level to me—the tie rod ends are inserted into
the one-ton knuckle from the underside. But I have measured it up and I’m
going on visual memory, and bump steer is more than whether they are
parallel to the lower control arm. But I do not feel significant bump
steer.
I also don’t feel any of the twitchiness I would expect if it’s toeing out
on bump. And bump should happen every time we brake into a turn. I define
twitchiness as diving too aggressively into a turn, or changing direction
unexpectedly on braking (which also causes front bump). In a motor home, I
want plenty of understeer, and my coach has never given me anything else,
stock or one-ton.
Whatever lean occurs on the body in a turn happens at the back wheel, and
front wheels will also gain (positive) camber on body lean if the knuckle
always stays plumb with respect to the body. This causes roll understeer,
but the motor home has so much understeer that it doesn’t seem to make that
much difference. When I raced (econobox) cars, I set up significant (like 3
degrees) negative camber to counteract that tendency, in addition to very
stiff springs that limited body roll. And I had to lower the rear eyes on
the leaf springs on the solid rear axle to dial out the roll understeer
that is baked into the factory location. On oval tracks, that’s what it
took to balance tire temps across the outside treads. My ‘76 Corolla was
not designed for 140mph, and neither is the GMC.
I’m sure there are subtle differences noticeable to a trained observer. I’m
not sure they change the driving experience negatively for most owners.
I’ve never heard of a GMC losing steering stability except when John
Nichols rolled his (I’m not sure he was driving). And I think that was an
attempt to climb over a sharp pavement edge. It was on the factory front
end in any case. But I have seen many cases where people narrowly avoided a
crash (or didn’t) when the brakes weren’t adequate. The bigger front brakes
are a glow-in-the-dark improvement, and I’m not comparing to worn-out stuff
there—my old brakes were at factory spec. But even my old front-end stuff
wasn’t that bad. My bushings needed replacing, but they were still in
place, and everything else was in a state of good repair. I did increase
caster with offset bushings, however.
Rick “whose wife thinks the coach drives noticeably more secure” Denney
On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 3:18 PM Keith V wrote:
> do we know what the camber change is on the unmodified 1 ton?
>
> The negative camber gain doesn't bother me, better than positive like on
> old vettes!
>
> Toe in on bump is bad bad bad leads to oversteer, should be toe out. I
> would bet any handling complaints come from bump steer not camber gain, the
> tie rod location on the 1 ton is way higher, it's gonna toe in like mad
>
> --
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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