Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Header wrap insulation (Pros and cons)
| Header wrap insulation [message #330294] |
Sat, 24 March 2018 13:31  |
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pjburt
Messages: 437
Registered: February 2016
Location: Fresno, California
Karma: 1
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I am going to have to replace my exhaust system soon and am considering installing headers
I have seen many discussions here of headers vs manifolds but not a lot about wrapping or coating the headers. The most frequent complaint about headers seems to be sound and heat.
Wouldn't wrapping the headers help with both heat and sound?
What would be the pros and cons of this?
With today's metal alloys (i.e. Stainless), I would think the rusting from the inside out would not be a problem.
I would like to hear from those of you with more knowledge than me chime in.
Thanks
Jerry Burt Fresno, CA.
73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands
Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS
A truly happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery on a detour.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation [message #330300 is a reply to message #330294] |
Sat, 24 March 2018 14:07  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jerry,
I would call whomever (or is it whoever?) you buy the headers from, ask their opinion; and if it will affect (or is it effect?) the
warranty. ;-)
Also keep in mind that as far as the amount of heat that headers add to the engine compartment, under the coach, or to the fuel
tanks no one has done any testing - as far as I know.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Burt
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 5:31 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation
I am going to have to replace my exhaust system soon and am considering installing headers
I have seen many discussions here of headers vs manifolds but not a lot about wrapping or coating the headers. The most frequent
complaint about headers seems to be sound and heat.
Wouldn't wrapping the headers help with both heat and sound?
What would be the pros and cons of this?
With today's metal alloys (i.e. Stainless), I would think the rusting from the inside out would not be a problem.
I would like to hear from those of you with more knowledge than me chime in.
Thanks
--
Patti & Jerry Burt
73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
77 Palm Beach
Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation [message #330302 is a reply to message #330300] |
Sat, 24 March 2018 14:54 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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A new stock exaust manifols are running $ 350 per side.
On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:53 PM, Jim Kanomata
wrote:
> I have seen where the wrap tensa to trap moissture and condensaion and the
> Header MFG will never honor a rust claim.
> Yesn there is more tube area on a header, but the heat emied is in
> someways slighly more than the exaust manifold, so in some ways it is worth
> the heat.
> All the ones we provide are Ceramic coated insise and out and it does run
> cooler than bare steel manifolds.
> There is a way to torque the bolts, so learn that.
> These are Tri Y design, for low end torque, 2,200-3,300 rpm, not a racing
> type for 4,000-6,000 rpm
>
> On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:07 PM, Rob Mueller
> wrote:
>
>> Jerry,
>>
>> I would call whomever (or is it whoever?) you buy the headers from, ask
>> their opinion; and if it will affect (or is it effect?) the
>> warranty. ;-)
>>
>> Also keep in mind that as far as the amount of heat that headers add to
>> the engine compartment, under the coach, or to the fuel
>> tanks no one has done any testing - as far as I know.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>> The Pedantic Mechanic
>> Sydney, Australia
>> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Jerry Burt
>> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 5:31 AM
>> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
>> Subject: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation
>>
>> I am going to have to replace my exhaust system soon and am considering
>> installing headers
>> I have seen many discussions here of headers vs manifolds but not a lot
>> about wrapping or coating the headers. The most frequent
>> complaint about headers seems to be sound and heat.
>> Wouldn't wrapping the headers help with both heat and sound?
>> What would be the pros and cons of this?
>> With today's metal alloys (i.e. Stainless), I would think the rusting
>> from the inside out would not be a problem.
>> I would like to hear from those of you with more knowledge than me chime
>> in.
>> Thanks
>> --
>> Patti & Jerry Burt
>> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
>> 77 Palm Beach
>> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation [message #330303 is a reply to message #330300] |
Sat, 24 March 2018 14:53 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I have seen where the wrap tensa to trap moissture and condensaion and the
Header MFG will never honor a rust claim.
Yesn there is more tube area on a header, but the heat emied is in someways
slighly more than the exaust manifold, so in some ways it is worth the heat.
All the ones we provide are Ceramic coated insise and out and it does run
cooler than bare steel manifolds.
There is a way to torque the bolts, so learn that.
These are Tri Y design, for low end torque, 2,200-3,300 rpm, not a racing
type for 4,000-6,000 rpm
On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 12:07 PM, Rob Mueller
wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> I would call whomever (or is it whoever?) you buy the headers from, ask
> their opinion; and if it will affect (or is it effect?) the
> warranty. ;-)
>
> Also keep in mind that as far as the amount of heat that headers add to
> the engine compartment, under the coach, or to the fuel
> tanks no one has done any testing - as far as I know.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jerry
> Burt
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 5:31 AM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation
>
> I am going to have to replace my exhaust system soon and am considering
> installing headers
> I have seen many discussions here of headers vs manifolds but not a lot
> about wrapping or coating the headers. The most frequent
> complaint about headers seems to be sound and heat.
> Wouldn't wrapping the headers help with both heat and sound?
> What would be the pros and cons of this?
> With today's metal alloys (i.e. Stainless), I would think the rusting from
> the inside out would not be a problem.
> I would like to hear from those of you with more knowledge than me chime
> in.
> Thanks
> --
> Patti & Jerry Burt
> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
> 77 Palm Beach
> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation [message #330332 is a reply to message #330331] |
Sun, 25 March 2018 13:12 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Bigger is not always better, this applies to exaust systems.
Keep in mind, that the Thorly Headers/ Dougs Headers were designed by Jerry
Jarden of Jarden mufflers.
He had a GMC MH and designes the headers to work for him and started it and
then copied.
The Collector pipe is 2 1/2 " Dia. and not the smaller one we have on the
stock coach.
So one must install a reducer, should you want to usse the stock system.
We provide a bolt up kit that is simple to install, all Mandrel Bent curves
going from 2 1/2 and joining to 3.
Jerry Jarden felt that this was mist effective, due to length of the pipe.
Emory Stora improved the system by installing a single 3" muffler, which we
copied.
On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Jerry Burt wrote:
> Thanks for the replies. I have a spare set of manifolds if I need them. I
> was reading one of the GMCMI magazines about manifolds aging out and the
> merits of headers. Since I'm going to have to replace my whole system, I
> thought why not get the headers when I do.
> --
> Patti & Jerry Burt
> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
> 77 Palm Beach
> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: Header wrap insulation [message #330340 is a reply to message #330294] |
Sun, 25 March 2018 16:20 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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I have run both exhaust coatings and header wrap on various vehicles for some 25 years.My experience [yours may vary]:
Wraps reduce radiant heat better than coatings. Made a huge difference on my TRans AM over coatings. Ran with wraps over the coated headers with no ill effects. Also cooled much better on a hot day
When tested on the dyno, no difference in power with either
However the reduced heat under the hood and intake temps probably does.
THe wraps definetily help turbo spool up , The turbo snail wraps do not.
THey will make cheap thin wall headers rust out faster. SS no difference
The spray on silicone coating over the wraps is helpfull in blocking moisture and oil absorbation as well as local heat transfer
These days I tend to only wrap the upper area near the spark plugs and any heat sensitve area
Dont run it on my GMC headers, although I might in the future.
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: Header wrap insulation [message #330376 is a reply to message #330340] |
Mon, 26 March 2018 12:21 |
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pjburt
Messages: 437
Registered: February 2016
Location: Fresno, California
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Jim. I've been eyeing your kits. My list of things I need to get from you just keeps getting longer instead of shorter.
Chris, thanks for your input. It has been a long time since I dealt with headers and that was back when lack of longevity and sealing were considered part of the trade off. Headers, coated or stainless, are looking better all the time.
Chris Tyler wrote on Sun, 25 March 2018 14:20I have run both exhaust coatings and header wrap on various vehicles for some 25 years.My experience [yours may vary]:
Wraps reduce radiant heat better than coatings. Made a huge difference on my TRans AM over coatings. Ran with wraps over the coated headers with no ill effects. Also cooled much better on a hot day
When tested on the dyno, no difference in power with either
However the reduced heat under the hood and intake temps probably does.
THe wraps definetily help turbo spool up , The turbo snail wraps do not.
THey will make cheap thin wall headers rust out faster. SS no difference
The spray on silicone coating over the wraps is helpfull in blocking moisture and oil absorbation as well as local heat transfer
These days I tend to only wrap the upper area near the spark plugs and any heat sensitve area
Dont run it on my GMC headers, although I might in the future.
Jerry Burt Fresno, CA.
73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands
Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS
A truly happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery on a detour.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation [message #330442 is a reply to message #330376] |
Wed, 28 March 2018 13:31 |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
Karma: -2
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Senior Member |
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I have seen where wrapped stainless exhausts suffered heat-related cracking. The occurrence has a lot to do with the system design, application, and EGTs. Most of the failures I’ve seen were on custom turbo applications which can run extremely high EGTs. The failed systems often were not designed to accommodate thermal expansion, which increases the risk of cracking. Running some of those systems without wraps helped reduce cracking.
I’ve also seen stainless with corrosion pinholes due to the presence of humidity and corrosive residues. adding a wrap will potentially increase the chances of this happening. Stainless does not always perform flawlessly in all environments.
Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'
> On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:21 PM, Jerry Burt wrote:
>
> Thanks Jim. I've been eyeing your kits. My list of things I need to get from you just keeps getting longer instead of shorter.
>
> Chris, thanks for your input. It has been a long time since I dealt with headers and that was back when lack of longevity and sealing were considered
> part of the trade off. Headers, coated or stainless, are looking better all the time.
>
>
> Chris Tyler wrote on Sun, 25 March 2018 14:20
>> I have run both exhaust coatings and header wrap on various vehicles for some 25 years.My experience [yours may vary]:
>>
>> Wraps reduce radiant heat better than coatings. Made a huge difference on my TRans AM over coatings. Ran with wraps over the coated headers with
>> no ill effects. Also cooled much better on a hot day
>>
>> When tested on the dyno, no difference in power with either
>> However the reduced heat under the hood and intake temps probably does.
>>
>> THe wraps definetily help turbo spool up , The turbo snail wraps do not.
>>
>> THey will make cheap thin wall headers rust out faster. SS no difference
>>
>> The spray on silicone coating over the wraps is helpfull in blocking moisture and oil absorbation as well as local heat transfer
>>
>> These days I tend to only wrap the upper area near the spark plugs and any heat sensitve area
>>
>> Dont run it on my GMC headers, although I might in the future.
>
>
> --
> Patti & Jerry Burt
> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
> 77 Palm Beach
> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation [message #330443 is a reply to message #330442] |
Wed, 28 March 2018 13:51 |
Dave Stragand
Messages: 307
Registered: October 2017
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Many years ago, I dealt with similar issues with headers and header-induced heat soak into the starter on a '79 Monte Carlo. The header wrap quickly rotted out the headers, but without the wrap the starter would often get too hot to spin.
Solution? Wrap the starter, solenoid and other nearby components with the header wrap -- but leave the headers bare. Didn't have a problem after that.
If possible, you might want to wrapping the heat-affected components instead of the headers. The wrap is cheap enough to be able to experiment.
-Dave
Near Pittsburgh
1978 Transmode
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Les Burt
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2018 2:31 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation
I have seen where wrapped stainless exhausts suffered heat-related cracking. The occurrence has a lot to do with the system design, application, and EGTs. Most of the failures I’ve seen were on custom turbo applications which can run extremely high EGTs. The failed systems often were not designed to accommodate thermal expansion, which increases the risk of cracking. Running some of those systems without wraps helped reduce cracking.
I’ve also seen stainless with corrosion pinholes due to the presence of humidity and corrosive residues. adding a wrap will potentially increase the chances of this happening. Stainless does not always perform flawlessly in all environments.
Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'
> On Mar 26, 2018, at 1:21 PM, Jerry Burt wrote:
>
> Thanks Jim. I've been eyeing your kits. My list of things I need to get from you just keeps getting longer instead of shorter.
>
> Chris, thanks for your input. It has been a long time since I dealt
> with headers and that was back when lack of longevity and sealing were considered part of the trade off. Headers, coated or stainless, are looking better all the time.
>
>
> Chris Tyler wrote on Sun, 25 March 2018 14:20
>> I have run both exhaust coatings and header wrap on various vehicles for some 25 years.My experience [yours may vary]:
>>
>> Wraps reduce radiant heat better than coatings. Made a huge
>> difference on my TRans AM over coatings. Ran with wraps over the
>> coated headers with no ill effects. Also cooled much better on a hot
>> day
>>
>> When tested on the dyno, no difference in power with either However
>> the reduced heat under the hood and intake temps probably does.
>>
>> THe wraps definetily help turbo spool up , The turbo snail wraps do not.
>>
>> THey will make cheap thin wall headers rust out faster. SS no
>> difference
>>
>> The spray on silicone coating over the wraps is helpfull in blocking
>> moisture and oil absorbation as well as local heat transfer
>>
>> These days I tend to only wrap the upper area near the spark plugs
>> and any heat sensitve area
>>
>> Dont run it on my GMC headers, although I might in the future.
>
>
> --
> Patti & Jerry Burt
> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
> 77 Palm Beach
> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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_______________________________________________
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1978 Transmode (403)
Pittsburgh, PA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation [message #330450 is a reply to message #330442] |
Wed, 28 March 2018 20:36 |
TR 1
Messages: 348
Registered: August 2015
Location: DFW
Karma: -7
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Senior Member |
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Les Burt[1 I've also seen stainless with corrosion pinholes due to the presence of humidity and corrosive residues. adding a wrap will potentially increase the chances of this happening. Stainless does not always perform flawlessly in all environments.
This can also depend on the type of stainless used in the exhaust system. I am by no means an expert on metals, but 409 stainless is often used in exhaust systems, (especially by OEMs) due to it's lower cost. However, most higher quality aftermarket systems use 304, which is more resistant to corrosion (and more expensive) due to it's higher chromium content.
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
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| Re: [GMCnet] Header wrap insulation [message #330457 is a reply to message #330450] |
Thu, 29 March 2018 09:00 |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
Karma: -2
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Senior Member |
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In my previous message, it should read 321, not 421 stainless.
Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'
> On Mar 28, 2018, at 9:36 PM, Mark Sawyer wrote:
>
> Les Burt[1
>> I've also seen stainless with corrosion pinholes due to the presence of humidity and corrosive residues. adding a wrap will potentially increase
>> the chances of this happening. Stainless does not always perform flawlessly in all environments.
>
>
> This can also depend on the type of stainless used in the exhaust system. I am by no means an expert on metals, but 409 stainless is often used in
> exhaust systems, (especially by OEMs) due to it's lower cost. However, most higher quality aftermarket systems use 304, which is more resistant to
> corrosion (and more expensive) due to it's higher chromium content.
> --
> Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
> Manny 1 Ton Front End,
> Howell Injection,
> Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
> Fort Worth, TX
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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