Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good
non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #322926] |
Tue, 29 August 2017 10:38  |
lqqkatjon
 Messages: 2324 Registered: October 2010 Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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for all those lurking out there paying attention to how often the GMC has problems, and not the many trouble free miles most of the gmc's travel, I thought I would send out a quick story about a 2018 motorhome.
My daughters get to spend summer days with a wonderful family of 5(a Dad/wife and 3 boys). This family decided to do there 1st ever RV trip this year and picked up a week motorhome rental at a Benefit auction last spring.
I did not get the complete story yet, but they picked up a 2018 30-32' class C gas motorhome with about 18,000 miles on it on August 17th, with a planned trip to Glacier National Park, from Central MN starting August 18th and going 10 days, returning the motorhome on August 27th.
They had more problems with the rental, then I usually have with my GMC that I have been fixing from the ground up for the past 6 years. Even though the 2018 f-450 ford chassis, always ran, and they were not stranded, but there were plenty of problems:
1st, the cap on the bumper was missing that contained the stinky slinky. that stinky slinky is somewhere in north dakota in the ditch of i-94. They had difficult time finding a replacement hose that fit for some reason, and struggled with that for a few days until he found a good hose.
2nd, went to turn on the TV for the kids and it was spider cracked all across the TV and not view able. Never thought to fire up the TV when they did the walk through.
3rd, furnace quit, turns out there was a plumbing leak above it and got the control board got soaked and fried.
4th, A/C quit - no idea why I guess that Class C has poor airflow, and the Dash A/C will not keep the back cool either.
5th, Generator quit and did not work most of the trip. for some reason, it restarted on the way home, but would not fire off most of the week when they tried. Was not a huge problem, since the roof A/C was not working anyway.
Now these are folks that have Zero RV experience, so some problems may have been user error, but they are not completely clueless. He was told he could bring it to a dealer to have them check things over, but he had 10 days of vacation, and 4 of those dedicated to travel. So did not want to give up any of the 6 days left to spend at a RV dealer out of the way of there plans.
but after a short conversation with them, I feel pretty good about my 41 year old GMC! I hope to make the same trip in a couple years with my family to Glacier National Park or Yellowstone, and hoping I have less problems.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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Re: non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #322931 is a reply to message #322926] |
Tue, 29 August 2017 10:51   |
Dennis S
 Messages: 3046 Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Several years ago we attended an Eastern Region FMCA Rally here in Memphis.
The coach next to us was built on a Ford chassis - the transmission locked up in Park.
The then-president of the region lost the steering in his new $750k coach and was towed to the rally.
An older lady from Pennsylvania (with an FMCA number of only 4 digits) driving a 70's model Toyota mini thing lost her holding tank and had no electric - but she just smiled, headed off to the campground bath and shopped for fresh produce at the little farmers market.
Sometimes it's about the equipment - sometimes it's more about the attitude.
Dennis
lqqkatjon wrote on Tue, 29 August 2017 10:38for all those lurking out there paying attention to how often the GMC has problems, and not the many trouble free miles most of the gmc's travel, I thought I would send out a quick story about a 2018 motorhome.
My daughters get to spend summer days with a wonderful family of 5(a Dad/wife and 3 boys). This family decided to do there 1st ever RV trip this year and picked up a week motorhome rental at a Benefit auction last spring.
I did not get the complete story yet, but they picked up a 2018 30-32' class C gas motorhome with about 18,000 miles on it on August 17th, with a planned trip to Glacier National Park, from Central MN starting August 18th and going 10 days, returning the motorhome on August 27th.
They had more problems with the rental, then I usually have with my GMC that I have been fixing from the ground up for the past 6 years. Even though the 2018 f-450 ford chassis, always ran, and they were not stranded, but there were plenty of problems:
1st, the cap on the bumper was missing that contained the stinky slinky. that stinky slinky is somewhere in north dakota in the ditch of i-94. They had difficult time finding a replacement hose that fit for some reason, and struggled with that for a few days until he found a good hose.
2nd, went to turn on the TV for the kids and it was spider cracked all across the TV and not view able. Never thought to fire up the TV when they did the walk through.
3rd, furnace quit, turns out there was a plumbing leak above it and got the control board got soaked and fried.
4th, A/C quit - no idea why I guess that Class C has poor airflow, and the Dash A/C will not keep the back cool either.
5th, Generator quit and did not work most of the trip. for some reason, it restarted on the way home, but would not fire off most of the week when they tried. Was not a huge problem, since the roof A/C was not working anyway.
Now these are folks that have Zero RV experience, so some problems may have been user error, but they are not completely clueless. He was told he could bring it to a dealer to have them check things over, but he had 10 days of vacation, and 4 of those dedicated to travel. So did not want to give up any of the 6 days left to spend at a RV dealer out of the way of there plans.
but after a short conversation with them, I feel pretty good about my 41 year old GMC! I hope to make the same trip in a couple years with my family to Glacier National Park or Yellowstone, and hoping I have less problems.
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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Re: non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #322934 is a reply to message #322926] |
Tue, 29 August 2017 11:13   |
jhbridges
 Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Equipment vs attitude: All of my GMCs required tinkering... part of the fun and part of the price. BUT, if I dropped 750 large on one, that damn thing better purr quietly and ever thing in it work like a champ. QC seems to be a problem with a lot of the current manufacturers. Consequently if I was looking for new and large I'd look at Tiffin. Most of the Alabama hill country folks take some pride in their work.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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Re: non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #322937 is a reply to message #322934] |
Tue, 29 August 2017 11:28   |
roy1
 Messages: 2126 Registered: July 2004 Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Newer pretty ones break just like 40 year old ones but they aren't 70's technology so they are more difficult to trouble shoot and likely cost more to fix. Also believe it or not a 10 or 15 year old coach may have more obsolete stuff on it then a 40 year old GMC. You can always call Jim K and have him send you a part no one else has. With a newer sob that has an obsolete part who are you going to call.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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Re: non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #322943 is a reply to message #322926] |
Tue, 29 August 2017 14:03   |
jhbridges
 Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Who you gonna call? Well, if you speak Mandarin, the manufacturer.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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Re: non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #322949 is a reply to message #322943] |
Tue, 29 August 2017 15:46   |
Hal StClair
 Messages: 971 Registered: March 2013 Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
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Senior Member |
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Not to mention all the manufacturers' that are no longer around.
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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Re: non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #322977 is a reply to message #322926] |
Tue, 29 August 2017 22:01   |
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Matt Colie
 Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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If you are ready for a fun story, read on, otherwise there is little of real value here.
Ready for a great GMC story?
I had a client. If you don't know about clients, suffice it to say you kind of have to keep them happy because that is where your money comes from.
Said client would sometimes end up in my shop (only) when the situation required. He had little good to say about anything I own because it was all old. I did explain to him once that many of those old thing were tools and equipment that I purchased new, but I have take care of them and they be old but I can't buy better. When he first saw my coach, he remarked that he would not dare leave the neighbor hood with something that old. (That is about a quote.)
He had acquired an brand new motorhome the year before. I knew he was heading out on a longish excursion and was looking forward to his leaving me alone with his that and projects for others. But, in the late afternoon, the phone rang.....
It was said client asking (not something he normally did) if I could retrieve his two daughters, their two friends, his wife and him. It seems that their new (and oh so dependable) coach broke. It had been hauled to an RV dealer (in Chelsea MI if you care - 12m west of Ann Arbor) and they had determined that it needed a part. They ordered the part and it would take at least a month - maybe more. (How to torch a vacation!!)
At this time our coach was also my tool crib and other things as well. So, I unloaded the multiple tool boxes from the back bedroom, cleaned myself up and headed for Chelsea. When I got there, we loaded the four girls, lots and lots of luggage and about half the contents of their reefer (mine is smaller, but so is the coach).
Two girls sat in the back bedroom (I have added seatbelts there) with most of the luggage, two sat behind me and jabbered a storm. (Remember it is a GMC 23 with the dinette behind the driver. Robert (the client) sat at the dinette facing forward. Wife (I'm not sure I ever did know her name) was in the passenger seat.
We got back on I-94 headed east and wife said,"Wow, this is an nice ride. How old is this?" (That is a quote.) When I told her that she was 35 (2008) and we had just come back from an excursion along Rt-66 to the Balloon Fiesta in Albuquerque. She got quiet. Then, she asked what would I do if I needed a part for her. I told her that there were several good suppliers and one on the west coast could get anything I might need in two days - maybe less. I was in Ann Arbor traffic about then and all I could see was her looking back at him.
I never got the "old stuff" line from him again.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #323123 is a reply to message #322934] |
Fri, 01 September 2017 18:03   |
kerry pinkerton
 Messages: 2565 Registered: July 2012 Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 29 August 2017 11:13...if I was looking for new and large I'd look at Tiffin. Most of the Alabama hill country folks take some pride in their work.
Yes but only if they're allowed to do so. Tiffin has their own share of quality problems. In fact, the folks wanting factory service got so numerous that the factory now only does warranty work leaving owners with coaches out of warranty (12 mo) to try and get the dealers to get their heads out of their butts and do decent work.
Sadly, if GMC was building our coach today, it'd probably have the same quality problems as everyone else. The bean counters and share holders won't allow things to be done 'right'. Btw, I am a bean counter by education.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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Re: [GMCnet] non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #323490 is a reply to message #323123] |
Thu, 07 September 2017 07:15   |
James Hupy
 Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Well, final nail in the box kinda message. Travel, non GMC. Flew from
Prague, Czech Republic to Kennedy yesterday. Plane was over an hour late to
the gate in Prague. Delayed loading, and flight. Subsequently, about 2
hours delayed arriving in JFK. Our connecting flight to Portland, long
gone. No more West Coast flights available. DELTA offered to fly us to
Atlanta. Yes, that's sure on the way to Portland, NOT. Put us up overnight
in the Hilton. We will see what today brings. Still, USA is wayyyy better
than the alternative.
Jim Hupy
Headed for the barn, I hope.
On Sep 1, 2017 4:04 PM, "Kerry Pinkerton" wrote:
> Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 29 August 2017 11:13
>> ...if I was looking for new and large I'd look at Tiffin. Most of the
> Alabama hill country folks take some pride in their work.
>
>
>
> Yes but only if they're allowed to do so. Tiffin has their own share of
> quality problems. In fact, the folks wanting factory service got so
> numerous
> that the factory now only does warranty work leaving owners with coaches
> out of warranty (12 mo) to try and get the dealers to get their heads out of
> their butts and do decent work.
>
> Sadly, if GMC was building our coach today, it'd probably have the same
> quality problems as everyone else. The bean counters and share holders
> won't
> allow things to be done 'right'. Btw, I am a bean counter by education.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
>
> Had 5 over the years. Still have the first a 76 that will be rebodied
> into an art deco car hauler.
>
> http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/
>
> '03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Re: non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #323494 is a reply to message #322926] |
Thu, 07 September 2017 08:31   |
jhbridges
 Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Hupy, if you go to hell, Delta will make you lay up in Atlanta for two hours on the way. The benefit is, if you live in the area, you can go pretty much anywhere non-stop.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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Re: [GMCnet] non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #323497 is a reply to message #323494] |
Thu, 07 September 2017 08:46   |
James Hupy
 Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Johnny, we pretty much been going non-stop since Wed. Sept 6. Don't need no
more stinking layovers. Presently at JFK, gate B-38, waiting to board a
direct flight to Seattle. Then, hop a local flight to Portland, recover our
car, and drive home to Salem. Yahoooo. Free at last, free at last. Thank
GOD ALMIGHTY, free at last. Told the problem solve lady at the Airport last
night."We still have our sense of humor." She cracked a real tiny smile,
but the gal in the next service window laughed out loud.
Jim Hupy
On Sep 7, 2017 6:36 AM, "Johnny Bridges via Gmclist" <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Hupy, if you go to hell, Delta will make you lay up in Atlanta for two
> hours on the way. The benefit is, if you live in the area, you can go
> pretty
> much anywhere non-stop.
>
> --johnny
> --
> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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Re: [GMCnet] non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #323502 is a reply to message #323490] |
Thu, 07 September 2017 09:24   |
James Hupy
 Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Gene.
Jim Hupy
On Sep 7, 2017 7:22 AM, "gene Fisher" wrote:
> WELCOME back
> Now
> GET TO WORK
> 😀
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 7:14 AM Richard Denney wrote:
>
>> There's a joke in there.
>>
>> Rick "flying out of Atlanta tomorrow" Denney
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:36 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist > gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hupy, if you go to hell, Delta will make you lay up in Atlanta for two
>>> hours on the way.
>>
>> org
>>>
>> --
>> Rick Denney
>> 73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
>> Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Re: [GMCnet] non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #323506 is a reply to message #323502] |
Thu, 07 September 2017 09:33   |
Mike Kelley
 Messages: 467 Registered: February 2017
Karma: -2
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Senior Member |
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Hey Jim Hupy:
Have sure enjoyed your travel abroad reports. Glad you are back in the Good Ole U S.
Thanks,
Mike/The Corvair a holic
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 7, 2017, at 9:24 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>
> Thanks Gene.
> Jim Hupy
>
>> On Sep 7, 2017 7:22 AM, "gene Fisher" wrote:
>>
>> WELCOME back
>> Now
>> GET TO WORK
>> 😀
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 7:14 AM Richard Denney wrote:
>>>
>>> There's a joke in there.
>>>
>>> Rick "flying out of Atlanta tomorrow" Denney
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:36 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist >> gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hupy, if you go to hell, Delta will make you lay up in Atlanta for two
>>>> hours on the way.
>>>
>>> org
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Rick Denney
>>> 73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
>>> Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> --
>> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
>> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
>> -------
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
>> Alternator Protection Cable
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Re: [GMCnet] non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #323512 is a reply to message #323497] |
Thu, 07 September 2017 11:37   |
Ken Henderson
 Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
With that kind of progress, you might still be able to load up & make it to
Elkhart! And this time you'd get to look out the cockpit windows (not
being able to being the reason I no longer fly).
Ken H.
On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 9:46 AM, James Hupy wrote:
> Johnny, we pretty much been going non-stop since Wed. Sept 6. Don't need no
> more stinking layovers. Presently at JFK, gate B-38, waiting to board a
> direct flight to Seattle. Then, hop a local flight to Portland, recover our
> car, and drive home to Salem. Yahoooo. Free at last, free at last. Thank
> GOD ALMIGHTY, free at last. Told the problem solve lady at the Airport last
> night."We still have our sense of humor." She cracked a real tiny smile,
> but the gal in the next service window laughed out loud.
> Jim Hupy
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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Re: [GMCnet] non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #323513 is a reply to message #323512] |
Thu, 07 September 2017 12:05   |
tphipps
 Messages: 3005 Registered: August 2004 Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Interesting comment on Delta in today's Hurricane news. Delta upgraded one guy's ticket from reasonable price to $3200.
Story line continued with new evacuation air fares. American $99, Jet Blue $59-$139, Delta $399.
Nothing like legal theft.
Tom, MS II
Disclaimer: Southwest Airlines happy stockholder
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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Re: non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #323528 is a reply to message #322926] |
Thu, 07 September 2017 15:47   |
jhbridges
 Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Gas here is up to 2.80 from 2.19. I understand the further South you go, the worse it gets. I'll note, as late as 1985 when their head of Marketing spoke to us, ALL delta employees were hired from within. He said he moved up from Ramp Rat, the options being Flight Engineer, Reservations Clerk, apprentice mechanic, or Flight Attendant. Everyone from the CEO on down. They started coming apart when they went outside the Company for executives and haven't recovered.
But I don't see a month wait for a part, particularly on a new coach. Walk out to the yard, yank that part off a new coach, and send it.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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Re: [GMCnet] non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #323532 is a reply to message #323528] |
Thu, 07 September 2017 17:04   |
James Hupy
 Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Just boarded the last lap. Seattle to Portland. Be airborne in 15 min. or
so. Yeeee Hawwww.
Jim Hupy
On Sep 7, 2017 1:48 PM, "Johnny Bridges via Gmclist" <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Gas here is up to 2.80 from 2.19. I understand the further South you go,
> the worse it gets. I'll note, as late as 1985 when their head of Marketing
> spoke to us, ALL delta employees were hired from within. He said he moved
> up from Ramp Rat, the options being Flight Engineer, Reservations Clerk,
> apprentice mechanic, or Flight Attendant. Everyone from the CEO on down.
> They started coming apart when they went outside the Company for executives
> and haven't recovered.
> But I don't see a month wait for a part, particularly on a new coach.
> Walk out to the yard, yank that part off a new coach, and send it.
>
> --johnny
> --
> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Re: [GMCnet] non-GMC trip report making our coaches look good [message #323539 is a reply to message #323532] |
Thu, 07 September 2017 20:28   |
James Hupy
 Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Well, just got back to Salem. Short flight from Seattle to Portland.
Darned if our luggage didn't get here too. Tired.
On Sep 7, 2017 3:04 PM, "James Hupy" wrote:
> Just boarded the last lap. Seattle to Portland. Be airborne in 15 min. or
> so. Yeeee Hawwww.
> Jim Hupy
>
> On Sep 7, 2017 1:48 PM, "Johnny Bridges via Gmclist" gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> Gas here is up to 2.80 from 2.19. I understand the further South you go,
>> the worse it gets. I'll note, as late as 1985 when their head of Marketing
>> spoke to us, ALL delta employees were hired from within. He said he
>> moved up from Ramp Rat, the options being Flight Engineer, Reservations
>> Clerk,
>> apprentice mechanic, or Flight Attendant. Everyone from the CEO on
>> down. They started coming apart when they went outside the Company for
>> executives
>> and haven't recovered.
>> But I don't see a month wait for a part, particularly on a new coach.
>> Walk out to the yard, yank that part off a new coach, and send it.
>>
>> --johnny
>> --
>> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
>> Braselton, Ga.
>> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to
>> me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>>
>>
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>
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