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| Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321080] |
Tue, 25 July 2017 15:11  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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I would appreciate have a native guide's experience here.
Blackstone has told me that I have coolant in my engine's lube oil.
This is most likely to be and intake or head gasket leak. (That is based on my experience. And I'm hoping).
I have planned to take the top off the engine after Elkhart.
Question for those with more experience doing engine work in the coach.
Is this best done while leaving the block (455) in place,
Or is it worthwhile to haul the whole engine out and put it on a stand??
If I take the engine out, it has to come out the top, it is a 23 and I have a good hoist.
Thank you all.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321083 is a reply to message #321080] |
Tue, 25 July 2017 15:33  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Matt, depending a bit on the concentration of the antifreeze. The presence
of trace amounts is a cause for concern, but not panic. Higher
concentrations are a huge no-no. Head gasket interface is the usual
culprit, and if the engine is still fitted with steel gaskets, then,
usually, an r and r of the heads, pressure check, followed by good
composition gaskets will usually suffice. If there is a high concentration
of antifreeze in the oil, AND IT WAS MY ENGINE, I would pull the engine,
disassemble it to the short block, pull the bearing caps and inspect the
shaft and inserts very carefully. Any doubt as to condition, pull the
crank, mike it, polish the journals if they are etched, and replace all the
bearings. Cam and lifters too. Antifreeze and engine oil is a really poor
cocktail, in my opinion.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Jul 25, 2017 1:12 PM, "Matt Colie" wrote:
> I would appreciate have a native guide's experience here.
>
> Blackstone has told me that I have coolant in my engine's lube oil.
> This is most likely to be and intake or head gasket leak. (That is based
> on my experience. And I'm hoping).
> I have planned to take the top off the engine after Elkhart.
>
> Question for those with more experience doing engine work in the coach.
>
> Is this best done while leaving the block (455) in place,
> Or is it worthwhile to haul the whole engine out and put it on a stand??
>
> If I take the engine out, it has to come out the top, it is a 23 and I
> have a good hoist.
>
> Thank you all.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321085 is a reply to message #321080] |
Tue, 25 July 2017 15:41 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Matt, removing and reinstalling the intake manifold in the coach is an easy job, other than the weight of the thing. Remove the carb and fashion yourself a simple handle out of a couple of long bolts and a piece of wood. Screw it in the carb bolt holes and you now have a handle to lift by. If you want something to help support the weight, lay a piece of 2x2 across the seats and support some of the weight from it. I did not do the 2x2 thing when installing mine.
I just finished an intake gasket job on Laurie's Jimmy. I'll do a 455 any day over working on the 4.3 GM engine. The 455 is a much easier job.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
[Updated on: Tue, 25 July 2017 15:45] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321087 is a reply to message #321080] |
Tue, 25 July 2017 16:05 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I BELIEVE that is is possible to pull the heads without pulling the engine,
simply because many here have done it.
I have done the intake a couple of times, and as KenB says, it's not a
difficult job.
In addition to Jim's comments, I would add that it's not impossible to have
seepage around one of the coolant ports in the intake. That might or might
not be visible when you remove the intake, which, of course, you have to do
before removing the heads in any case.
The brackets on the front of the engine are the worst of the job, in my
view. But I do hate that power-steering-pump Rube Goldberg bracket with a
deep passion. The AC bracket isn't much better.
Rick "good luck" Denney
On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Matt Colie wrote:
> I would appreciate have a native guide's experience here.
>
> Blackstone has told me that I have coolant in my engine's lube oil.
> This is most likely to be and intake or head gasket leak. (That is based
> on my experience. And I'm hoping).
> I have planned to take the top off the engine after Elkhart.
>
> Question for those with more experience doing engine work in the coach.
>
> Is this best done while leaving the block (455) in place,
> Or is it worthwhile to haul the whole engine out and put it on a stand??
>
> If I take the engine out, it has to come out the top, it is a 23 and I
> have a good hoist.
>
> Thank you all.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
'73 X-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
Offlist email: rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321088 is a reply to message #321080] |
Tue, 25 July 2017 16:11 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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You probably already considered or did this but you might want to do a wet/dry compression test or a leak down.
Good time to have a valve job/seals/surfacing done- but if you have ring issues might as well go for the Full Monty.
Curious what head gasket youd go with havoing been on the design end?
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321097 is a reply to message #321080] |
Tue, 25 July 2017 18:15 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
So, IF you decide to pull the heads, set-up a frame of some kind and use a light duty block and tackle to lift the heads/manifold out and for putting back in. The last time I did this, I was able to hook on to spots on the heads and manifold that had the heads hanging at the perfect angle so when I put them back on, just lowered it slowly and with a little push to adjust angle, they set down perfect on the block. No pain...no strain. At 70+ yrs old, that stuff was just to heavy for me to want to muscle them into place. JWID
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321098 is a reply to message #321080] |
Tue, 25 July 2017 18:32 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Matt
Whether you pull the engine or just the top end, if you have access to a cherry picker you can lift it out through the entry door.
Here's Kelvin's photos of his engine R&R.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-r-26amp-3br-engine-work/p10728.html
I would make my decision based on how much regret I anticipated if I didn't pull the engine. But I get caught up in might-as-wells and that's why I never get finished!
Matt Colie wrote on Tue, 25 July 2017 15:11I would appreciate have a native guide's experience here.
Blackstone has told me that I have coolant in my engine's lube oil.
This is most likely to be and intake or head gasket leak. (That is based on my experience. And I'm hoping).
I have planned to take the top off the engine after Elkhart.
Question for those with more experience doing engine work in the coach.
Is this best done while leaving the block (455) in place,
Or is it worthwhile to haul the whole engine out and put it on a stand??
If I take the engine out, it has to come out the top, it is a 23 and I have a good hoist.
Thank you all.
Matt
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
[Updated on: Tue, 25 July 2017 18:33] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321100 is a reply to message #321080] |
Tue, 25 July 2017 19:24 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Besides the standard felpro head gaskets felpro has high performance head gaskets that has better sealing around the water holes.i believe they were around$75 each at summit .
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321131 is a reply to message #321080] |
Wed, 26 July 2017 07:02 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Matt - how many miles on the engine? I see two options, do the heads with it in place, or pull it out and rebuild. Once it's out, the additive cost/time vs doing it again soon does it for me.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321134 is a reply to message #321131] |
Wed, 26 July 2017 07:39 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Johnny Bridges wrote on Wed, 26 July 2017 08:02Matt - how many miles on the engine? I see two options, do the heads with it in place, or pull it out and rebuild. Once it's out, the additive cost/time vs doing it again soon does it for me.
--johnny
Johnny,
If I understand the paper that came with the coach, the engine has been about 70K miles. It still has good oil consumption at about 2K/qt and good oil pressure. It either of those were on the wane, I would do an overhaul.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321137 is a reply to message #321080] |
Wed, 26 July 2017 08:47 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Since there are no combustion byproducts I would say this is a PERFECT candidate for Barsleak. If it were me I would drain coolant and install fresh 50/50 and Barsleak tablets immediately. Then drive it to Elkhart and back and send out sample again or put a sharpie mark on the overflow and monitor cold daily. Usually this would fall into the "it's not my car" category. But this is what I would do if it were my vehicle. I see no point in doing partial work on an engine that has no ticks, no knocks, good oil management and good power and drivability. I would wait then do a total rebuild when any of those parameters deteriorate. Logicly, it must be a weep either due to gasket or casting corrosion and at 9PSI I would think the Barsleak would give 100% sealing.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321138 is a reply to message #321137] |
Wed, 26 July 2017 09:01 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Steel gaskets are largely unaffected by ginger root sealants. They rust
away. While barsleak can and does provide some stopleak protection, this is
not one of the times that I would trust it to work. IN MY OPINION. You, pay
your own money, and take your own choices. You have much more experience in
this area than most GMC'ers, particularly with gaskets. I think you already
know what to do. Nuff said from me.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Jul 26, 2017 6:48 AM, "John R. Lebetski" wrote:
> Since there are no combustion byproducts I would say this is a PERFECT
> candidate for Barsleak. If it were me I would drain coolant and install
> fresh
> 50/50 and Barsleak tablets immediately. Then drive it to Elkhart and back
> and send out sample again or put a sharpie mark on the overflow and monitor
> cold daily. Usually this would fall into the "it's not my car" category.
> But this is what I would do if it were my vehicle. I see no point in doing
> partial work on an engine that has no ticks, no knocks, good oil
> management and good power and drivability. I would wait then do a total
> rebuild when
> any of those parameters deteriorate. Logicly, it must be a weep either due
> to gasket or casting corrosion and at 9PSI I would think the Barsleak would
> give 100% sealing.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
>
>
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321139 is a reply to message #321080] |
Wed, 26 July 2017 09:35 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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If I were going to drive it several hundered miles with a known weep I would want the Barsleak in the system. If nothing else it will be a good test run for consumption. They also make a shelf full of HD products including the aluminum particle type and other "head gasket in a can" miracle cures. But I always start with the simple benign Cadillac tabs-- hey GM insisted Northstars got them so I don't think they will cause problems when used as directed with fresh coolant.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321147 is a reply to message #321144] |
Wed, 26 July 2017 11:55 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
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Not much choice if that's where you are Matt. Heads got to come off, only way to be sure and not take a chance on taking out the whole shebang.
JMHO, Hal
Matt Colie wrote on Wed, 26 July 2017 10:24JohnL455 wrote on Wed, 26 July 2017 10:35If I were going to drive it several hundered miles with a known weep I would want the Barsleak in the system. If nothing else it will be a good test run for consumption. They also make a shelf full of HD products including the aluminum particle type and other "head gasket in a can" miracle cures. But I always start with the simple benign Cadillac tabs-- hey GM insisted Northstars got them so I don't think they will cause problems when used as directed with fresh coolant.
I tried Barsleaks and oil change back and I am still getting the same answer.
I really don't want to loose a good engine by being foolish.
Matt
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321166 is a reply to message #321144] |
Wed, 26 July 2017 20:40 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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With 70 thousand miles on the engine and the engine mostly apart with the heads removed . As easy as it is with a 23 footer I would put the shop crane thru the doorway and pull the motor . I would be very curious as to the condition of number 7&8 rod bearings. If all is well put it back together with new gaskets and seals . I would sleep better knowing all was well with out second guessing. This is what I did with my 26 footer when it needed cylinder head work when I first bought it. Smart move on my part 7&8 rod bearings were well worn and I dodged a bullet.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: Top End Work Question - Native guide needed [message #321171 is a reply to message #321080] |
Thu, 27 July 2017 06:37 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Been there, done that Matt. I feel your pain. When we first got our 77, Blackstone said we had coolant in the oil. I did the stop leak and oil change thing and made another trip before a retest. Blackstone again said there was coolant in the oil and metals were up a bit. I had the oil tested by Chuck's guy who said, "Remove this engine from service, NOW!". I did and chose to pull it (out the bottom). Had a couple of bearings that were nearly to the copper and one that had a big gouge through it. My engine guy, John Beavers in Americus Ga, took one glance at my head and spotted the blown head gasket between 1-3. The head gasket came apart when I lifted the head but he could see the 'track' on the head.
Because I caught it early we were able to do an 'overhaul' instead of a rebuild. The crank was within factory specs so it was polished. Cleaned up and new crosshatch on the block, did the heads, and back together with new gaskets. John ordered head gaskets from Mondello and block off plates from Paterson.
Photos here: http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6382-overhauling-the-403.html
There is a long thread on the site somewhere.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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