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| I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319560] |
Sun, 25 June 2017 18:52  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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For some time, I have been consulting with others - mostly Tom Pryor about a better choice of fans and controls.
I now have a quiet fan that meets the coaches requirements. It is a 20" fan, so it does not fit it the stock horse collar fan shroud, so mine got replaced with a 2-piece that had to be modified, I won't miss that old thing at all. This fan is so quiet that start-up roar is all but gone and what noise it does make goes away fast. (This is one of the reasons I had to repair the exhaust system.) I know they are working on a better shroud and better ways to install it.
Well, Tom found the right part for a fan - it even goes the right way - But it needed some things. Even with these things, some of which Tom found or/and modified some of which Johnny Bridges assembled and they may have been others involved, but I was passed a few parts and acquired others on instruction. It is an electrically controlled viscous drive, so in needs a controller.
Remember the sub cooling issue I was having? That is gone. The fan does not even start until the thermostat is open. Even then, it only runs as long as it is needed. I added some instruments most of you don't have so I could watch the actual coolant out temperature and other stuff of interest to engine geeks. This was mod immediately impressive. Of course I did some stationary tests, but then I did some real road testing, but always close enough so I could limp home if needed. I never needed. On one of the early runs, I carefully did a highway run to heat soak the engine and then encountered an expected traffic jam at the entrance to a local water park. Yes, I did plan to get stuck in traffic on a 90°+ day.
It is quieter, that much I can promise, but I will not be able to publish any reliable fuel rate change for several months. Sorry about that.
So, I've go mine even as a Mark 1 Mod 0 I still love it. I don't when JimK will be able to supply a kit that normal humans (even GMC owners) can be find acceptable.
Until then, watch this board for the announcement.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319561 is a reply to message #319560] |
Sun, 25 June 2017 19:02  |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
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Matt: pics or it didn't happen.
Rick "and what was the temperature drop across the radiator? Denney
On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:53 PM Matt Colie wrote:
> For some time, I have been consulting with others - mostly Tom Pryor about
> a better choice of fans and controls.
>
> I now have a quiet fan that meets the coaches requirements. It is a 20"
> fan, so it does not fit it the stock horse collar fan shroud, so mine got
> replaced with a 2-piece that had to be modified, I won't miss that old
> thing at all. This fan is so quiet that start-up roar is all but gone and
> what noise it does make goes away fast. (This is one of the reasons I had
> to repair the exhaust system.) I know they are working on a better shroud
> and better ways to install it.
>
> Well, Tom found the right part for a fan - it even goes the right way -
> But it needed some things. Even with these things, some of which Tom found
> or/and modified some of which Johnny Bridges assembled and they may have
> been others involved, but I was passed a few parts and acquired others on
> instruction. It is an electrically controlled viscous drive, so in needs
> a controller.
>
> Remember the sub cooling issue I was having? That is gone. The fan does
> not even start until the thermostat is open. Even then, it only runs as
> long as it is needed. I added some instruments most of you don't have so
> I could watch the actual coolant out temperature and other stuff of interest
> to engine geeks. This was mod immediately impressive. Of course I did
> some stationary tests, but then I did some real road testing, but always
> close
> enough so I could limp home if needed. I never needed. On one of the
> early runs, I carefully did a highway run to heat soak the engine and then
> encountered an expected traffic jam at the entrance to a local water
> park. Yes, I did plan to get stuck in traffic on a 90°+ day.
>
> It is quieter, that much I can promise, but I will not be able to publish
> any reliable fuel rate change for several months. Sorry about that.
>
> So, I've go mine even as a Mark 1 Mod 0 I still love it. I don't when
> JimK will be able to supply a kit that normal humans (even GMC owners) can
> be
> find acceptable.
>
> Until then, watch this board for the announcement.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319576 is a reply to message #319574] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 07:45 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
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Chriis,
I am understanding he now has a electronicly controlled fan clutch running off the waterpump as usual. With a larger plastic fan.
So in his situation is not similar to trying to run an electric fan.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
[Updated on: Mon, 26 June 2017 07:47] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319577 is a reply to message #319560] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 08:08 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Thais setup, which Applied will sell you, uses an electrically controlled viscous clutch and a somewhat quieter plastic fan. Where you have a spinning shaft pointed at the radiator and space for a fan, is simpler to mimic the OEM system with a more reliable clutch than to hang more components on the radiator and load the electrical system more.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319579 is a reply to message #319561] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 08:24 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
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I ran this system w/O modifying the fan shroud on a 403 engine and only had a chance to to go about 600 miles on it, but the unit is predictable and if need be there is a. manual switch one can turn on to at any time.
I run a Digi Panel and the stock gage to monitor. Engine temp,
I'll post a picture of the fan so you can see it is very well designed to pull air through
Tom will be receiving the CFM data of the stock. Fan and the 10 blade VS our new. With pressure drop of the simulated radiator and condenser, free CFM does not mean anything .
The total cost of the kit will be around $ 490
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 25, 2017, at 5:02 PM, Richard Denney wrote:
>
> day.
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319582 is a reply to message #319579] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 08:31 |
Michael Johnson
Messages: 62
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Jim, I'm interested in Sterling my gmc, needing advice on how to do so...
Michael Johnson Boulder Colorado 3035912884
On Jun 26, 2017 7:25 AM, "Jim Kanomata" wrote:
> I ran this system w/O modifying the fan shroud on a 403 engine and only
> had a chance to to go about 600 miles on it, but the unit is predictable
> and if need be there is a. manual switch one can turn on to at any time.
> I run a Digi Panel and the stock gage to monitor. Engine temp,
> I'll post a picture of the fan so you can see it is very well designed to
> pull air through
> Tom will be receiving the CFM data of the stock. Fan and the 10 blade VS
> our new. With pressure drop of the simulated radiator and condenser, free
> CFM does not mean anything .
> The total cost of the kit will be around $ 490
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jun 25, 2017, at 5:02 PM, Richard Denney wrote:
>>
>> day.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319584 is a reply to message #319561] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 08:32 |
Michael Johnson
Messages: 62
Registered: January 2013
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Selling, not Sterling
On Jun 26, 2017 7:31 AM, "Michael Johnson" wrote:
> Jim, I'm interested in Sterling my gmc, needing advice on how to do so...
> Michael Johnson Boulder Colorado 3035912884
>
> On Jun 26, 2017 7:25 AM, "Jim Kanomata" wrote:
>
>> I ran this system w/O modifying the fan shroud on a 403 engine and only
>> had a chance to to go about 600 miles on it, but the unit is predictable
>> and if need be there is a. manual switch one can turn on to at any time.
>> I run a Digi Panel and the stock gage to monitor. Engine temp,
>> I'll post a picture of the fan so you can see it is very well designed to
>> pull air through
>> Tom will be receiving the CFM data of the stock. Fan and the 10 blade VS
>> our new. With pressure drop of the simulated radiator and condenser, free
>> CFM does not mean anything .
>> The total cost of the kit will be around $ 490
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jun 25, 2017, at 5:02 PM, Richard Denney wrote:
>>>
>>> day.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
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| Re: I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319590 is a reply to message #319560] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 09:26 |
jknezek
Messages: 1057
Registered: December 2007
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Interesting. I'd be interested in this. I just redid the radiator and added a large transmission cooler to the front. According to the Digipanel, that combination is saving me 10-20 degrees, but it must have an ancillary effect on air flow, as my fan clutch is coming on significantly more than before. It really drives home the point that the fan clutch just isn't measuring what needs to be measured, as the fluid temps are better but clearly the air temp in the region of the fan clutch sensor is up.
Thanks,
Jeremy Knezek
1976 Glenbrook
Birmingham, AL
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| Re: [GMCnet] I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319594 is a reply to message #319561] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 09:48 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Richard Denney wrote on Sun, 25 June 2017 20:02Matt: pics or it didn't happen.
Rick "and what was the temperature drop across the radiator? Denney
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Rick,
Thomas Pryor has the pictures, I will not release them without his and JimK's approval. I was given permission to report this to the community.
This is data from the most interesting run.
Test #4 - Highway Road Run Alt 635~678MSL from Google Earth and confirmed by GPS. OAT 92~94°F T-in and T-out are K-T/C under the appropriate hose clamps. Speeds are by GPS. Fan control is a 195~210°F switch. Cab A/C was running the entire time.
This was not the first run, there were other tests and other runs, but this was for some specific data and was run so as to obtain that data.
Most of this is from a barely intelligible voice recording that will not be released.
From Cold start: Obs - The cold start fan noise is much reduced. The run to the highway ramp is less than four miles and the thermostat had just barely opened and the ramp to road speed began. Road speed was set at 72MPH (I wanted 70, and we usually travel at 62 for fuel and converter slip). Alt 625MSL by GPS.
On the highway run, T-in stabilized at 181°F. T-out at 195~197°F and varied with grade. Highway run was 8.2 miles from track data. Started at Exit 11 - I-275 MSL 625 and ending at 678MSL at Exit 192 - I-94. During the highway run the fan engaged twice for less than 30 seconds each time with no apparent cause, I suspect that this is a minor issue with the prototype control in use for this test.
The fan engaged shortly after stopping at the light at the end of the exit ramp. T-out peaked at 212°F Through three traffic lights to the water park entrance with the fan was on for most of that mile. The 200 yards to the water park entrance took 22 minutes. The fan was engaged the entire time. T-out stayed in range of 204~6°F T-in dropped to 168~175°F. It is important to note here that I have the engine set to idle at 380~450RPM. I did not use the manual switch, and I did not kick the idle up. Shortly after getting to the park speed limit of 35MPH, T-out dropped to ~193 the fan disengaged and shut down. (I had to pay attention to the narrow road.) When stopped in a parking area still in the park confines, I let the T-out get back to 210°F to engage the fan. The fan stayed engaged until about an half a mile down a 45MPH local road and did not restart until I was maneuvering to park at home.
Please note that after this run I was forced to bring the coach in for the exhaust pipe service mentioned in a prior note as the sound of same was now apparent even to me. (It was easier to ignore with the old fan/clutch.)
To Chris Tyler:
It is an electrically controlled viscous clutch. I did not monitor the power requirements, but it is currently supplied by a 5 amp fuse and all the power is from a tap on the OE vehicle chassis fuse block.
To Jeremy Knezek:
If you were so inclined, there is no reason that a second switch that was sensing transmission temperature could not be included.
To All:
At this time, I am going to wait until the others get real done developing controls before I mess with this again. It all comes under the heading of "Don't Shoot Santa Clause." I like this thing a lot. <= That is a subjective comment and cannot be included as test data.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319596 is a reply to message #319576] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 09:55 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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lqqkatjon wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 08:45 Chris,
I am understanding he now has a electronicly controlled fan clutch running off the waterpump as usual. With a larger plastic fan.
So in his situation is not similar to trying to run an electric fan.
Chris,
Jon is completely correct. But, the new fan is only about an inch larger diameter. It is plastic, but more than that, it is aerodynamically got to be bags more efficient that the antique it replaces. I did work for Hayes Cooling for a short time, and got to make several very complete comparisons between stamped steel fans and those with blades made with calculated sections (thickness/shape) for improved effectiveness and efficiency.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319599 is a reply to message #319590] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 10:01 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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There is such a HUGE DIFFERENCE in performance of individual clutches with
the SAME PART NUMBER MADE BY THE SAME MANUFACTURER, that I don't know how
reliable any comparison data is. I personally have replaced between 20 and
50 clutches over the last few years, and they all work just a bit
differently relative to cut in temperature, cut out temperature and lock up
percentages. Some roar, some, not so much. The coil springs that open and
close the viscous fluid valve inside the clutches are a sensitive and
delicate item. No two are exactly alike. When you alter the air flow over
them, you change the game completely. When you change 3 or 4 things at
once, all bets are off. I wish you well with your modifications. But I
don't hold out much hope based on the poor quality of fan clutches these
days. This is not being critical of your work at all. Only the production
parts involved.
If there exists a manually engaged clutch that will predictably drive
the fan at the correct CFM to quickly reduce coolant temps, and it could be
engaged and disengaged accurately, I would be very supportive of it.
But, nothing ticks me off more than fighting one of the current
clutches into place, only to have it not work as advertised. I always keep
at least 2 of them on hand. P.I.T.A.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Jun 26, 2017 7:27 AM, "Jeremy" wrote:
> Interesting. I'd be interested in this. I just redid the radiator and
> added a large transmission cooler to the front. According to the Digipanel,
> that
> combination is saving me 10-20 degrees, but it must have an ancillary
> effect on air flow, as my fan clutch is coming on significantly more than
> before. It really drives home the point that the fan clutch just isn't
> measuring what needs to be measured, as the fluid temps are better but
> clearly
> the air temp in the region of the fan clutch sensor is up.
> --
> Thanks,
> Jeremy Knezek
> 1976 Glenbrook
> Birmingham, AL
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319600 is a reply to message #319560] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 10:20 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Relative to Hupy's comments, the new setup uses coolant temperature to turn the clutch on or off. The temp sensor is a lot more accurate than the temperature of the air going across the clutch. The fluid sees only one seal instead of two, and the design and materials of that seal are 40 years newer than the original. Consequently we feel it will work better and last longer.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319603 is a reply to message #319600] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 10:35 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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I guess I am feeling a bit "snake bit" when it comes to new innovations in
fan and "high flow?" Aluminum water pumps. When I replaced the engine in
Jerry Work's Clasco coach, we put in a new aluminum radiator, new 10 blade
plastic fan and clutch, 2 piece shroud, aluminum water pump, the whole
enchilada. It would not stabilize coolant temps. I finally wound up doing
a 100 mile service call to re-install the original style water pump and
steel stock fan, along with a new thermostat. That fixed the temp cycling
problem. I am a bit leary of going through those motions again with "new
and improved parts". But, that does not mean that the cooling system does
not need improvement, it does.
Jim Hupy
On Jun 26, 2017 8:21 AM, "Johnny Bridges via Gmclist" <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Relative to Hupy's comments, the new setup uses coolant temperature to
> turn the clutch on or off. The temp sensor is a lot more accurate than the
> temperature of the air going across the clutch. The fluid sees only one
> seal instead of two, and the design and materials of that seal are 40 years
> newer than the original. Consequently we feel it will work better and
> last longer.
>
> --johnny
> --
> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me
> in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319605 is a reply to message #319603] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 10:55 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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James Hupy wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 10:35I guess I am feeling a bit "snake bit" when it comes to new innovations in fan and "high flow?" Aluminum water pumps. When I replaced the engine in Jerry Work's Clasco coach, we put in a new aluminum radiator, new 10 blade plastic fan and clutch, 2 piece shroud, aluminum water pump, the whole enchilada. It would not stabilize coolant temps. I finally wound up doing a 100 mile service call to re-install the original style water pump and steel stock fan, along with a new thermostat. That fixed the temp cycling problem. I am a bit leary of going through those motions again with "new and improved parts". But, that does not mean that the cooling system does not need improvement, it does.
Jim Hupy
Ignoring Matt's bigger plastic fan, are you arguing AGAINST a fan clutch that engages when the ENGINE COOLANT TEMPERATURE reaches a specific point, and shuts off when it drops below a lower set point, in favor of the relatively random operation of the OEM clutch?
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| Re: [GMCnet] I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319606 is a reply to message #319605] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 11:12 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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I think that coolant Temps are what we should be concerned with. They will
detect a overheat condition before the air temp will. Anything that
improves the Cooling systems ability to detect and compensate for a
overheat condition should be seen as a good thing.
Jim Hupy
On Jun 26, 2017 8:56 AM, "A." wrote:
> James Hupy wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 10:35
>> I guess I am feeling a bit "snake bit" when it comes to new innovations
> in fan and "high flow?" Aluminum water pumps. When I replaced the engine
>> in Jerry Work's Clasco coach, we put in a new aluminum radiator, new 10
> blade plastic fan and clutch, 2 piece shroud, aluminum water pump, the whole
>> enchilada. It would not stabilize coolant temps. I finally wound up
> doing a 100 mile service call to re-install the original style water pump
> and
>> steel stock fan, along with a new thermostat. That fixed the temp
> cycling problem. I am a bit leary of going through those motions again with
> "new
>> and improved parts". But, that does not mean that the cooling system
> does not need improvement, it does.
>> Jim Hupy
>
> Ignoring Matt's bigger plastic fan, are you arguing AGAINST a fan clutch
> that engages when the ENGINE COOLANT TEMPERATURE reaches a specific point,
> and shuts off when it drops below a lower set point, in favor of the
> relatively random operation of the OEM clutch?
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319608 is a reply to message #319560] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 11:52 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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May I suggest, when changing things, doing it one bean at a time instead of the whole enchilada all at once will allow you to evaluate each change. Otherwise when (not if) you get bit in the ass, you have a good idea of what bit you.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] I have a quiet fan that runs when needed. [message #319609 is a reply to message #319603] |
Mon, 26 June 2017 12:01 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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James Hupy wrote on Mon, 26 June 2017 11:35I guess I am feeling a bit "snake bit" when it comes to new innovations in fan and "high flow?" Aluminum water pumps. When I replaced the engine in Jerry Work's Clasco coach, we put in a new aluminum radiator, new 10 blade plastic fan and clutch, 2 piece shroud, aluminum water pump, the whole enchilada. It would not stabilize coolant temps. I finally wound up doing a 100 mile service call to re-install the original style water pump and
steel stock fan, along with a new thermostat. That fixed the temp cycling problem. I am a bit leary of going through those motions again with "new and improved parts". But, that does not mean that the cooling system does not need improvement, it does.
Jim Hupy
Jim,
Your reticence is easily understood.
The instability you saw was most likely a control tuning issue, but that can be a bear to sort out. It can easily be an interaction between two components that is now easily understood.
You changed at least 5 things on Jerry's coach. That is three more than I did. I would like to have had it be only one, but the existing shroud was incompatible.
Taguchi is a version of designed experiments to determine all the interactions with a minimum number of trials. Unfortunately, we don't have a situation that this will be amenable to using. I like changing one thing.
Did you notice that posting was for Test #4?? I did three tests (One of which was completely static) before that run. I was also not going to go anyplace in a hurry until I had complete confidence in this mod. There is a reason why the FAA requires flight time on experimental aircraft.
A friend was watching me work one time and remarked that I seemed kind of paranoid...
I told him that I knew I was paranoid about some things (like lifejackets, parachutes and breaks), but he should note that I am OLD and Paranoid.
At this point I have complete confidence in the fan to do what is needed. The boys are going to come up with better controls, and what I have right now beats the existing fans and clutches in my engineering opinion.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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