Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » The Next Solution (Because I hope it's not the final solution Johnny)
| The Next Solution [message #318819] |
Sat, 10 June 2017 11:59  |
Mike S
Messages: 82
Registered: February 2017
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Karma: 3
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During all of this discussion, no one has addressed the other, definitely
related problem: The front suspension. Even if one does an engine change,
at considerable expense, and finds a way to replace the transmission, at
probably greater expense, the "One-Ton" is still needed. Seems to me, the
only really logical way to attack all three problems is to replace the
whole front clip. The only one I've ever heard address that is NASCAR
veteran Barry Owen, who's said he intends to build his own frame for his
GMC. I think others of our younger, innovative owners should combine their
efforts, perhaps with his, to tackle the whole job.
A completely new front frame, with properly positioned (perhaps "moveable")
pivot points for the A-frames, provisions for the correct motor mounts for
the "new" engine and transmission, designed to interface directly with the
OEM side rails, etc, would offer many benefits. Not the least of those
would be elimination of the too-common internal rust being found in the
front clips. With a new design, the front A-arms could be custom or from a
sure to be available "forever", donor. Increased caster capability would
definitely be a requirement. Use of more modern torsion bars, and,
perhaps, provisions for air bags would certainly be desirable. Since the
later GM torsion bars are available in a wide range of spring rates, it
might be worthwhile to use light torsion bars along with air bags to
provide some dynamic adjustability -- a major mod to the existing frame,
but relatively simple in a new design. A new frame might also include
provisions for a widely available donor radiator, eliminating the necessity
for the custom design we now have. The OEM front clip is sufficiently
modular that a replacement could be a direct bolt-in with no other changes
required.
Granted, it would be a MAJOR undertaking, but I'm not sure it would be that
much more than the three "MINOR" mods combined. The integrated approach
should result in far fewer compromises than the piece meal route everyone's
followed so far.
Ken H.
Ken posted the above in the Balance thread, Thank you Ken.
I think it's worthwhile to talk about it. As I looked at the 4T80e transmission as a swap and realized it would need a new motor to work. Once you see that, It's not a large leap to go to where Ken is.
Let's go back in time.
Let's look at our coaches though the looking glass of the history of Hot or Street rodding. Look at the lowly Model A. From it's beginning it was upgraded and modified. By the time it got to be 25-30 years old, it had all kinds of motors put in it. Caddys, Hot Rod Lincolns(love the song), Flatheads of all modified levels. And the small block chevy. By the time it was 40ish the SBC had for the most part become the standard. The next evolution was from hotrod to street rod. The owners had gotten a little older and wanted comforts over speed. In 1977,I went to the Street Rod Nationals with a pinto/Mustang front suspension. Before that if you wanted independent front suspension you went corvair. There were 1500 cars and 2 of us had Mustang fronts. Last big show I went to. 10,000 cars and over 50% Mustang based. Next level. The group was running out of bodies and frames. The aftermarket kicked in to meet the demand. As rarity went up price went up. And made it worthwhile to produce.
So where is the GMC community? We are at the 40 year mark. And almost parallel to the model A at the same time.
Look at how may seem to be being drug back from near death. We know we need to save these coaches. And hopefully we won't have a war scrape drive to crush those that are setting. Like what happened to most Model As.
Our new mantra seems to be $25,000-$30,000, all at once or over time.
And as others have said, the other choice is $100,000 pressboard whatever.
Ken is absolutely right!
If you get a free coach, and know you probably will need everything. What's it cost.
When I looked at the 4T80E trans and stared at the front clip I have from Jeff Sirum. My first thought, was why not just do it all. Jim and Jeff will tell you. The front frames are starting to die. Can they be patched, yeah normally. But the frames, like the 455s will get rarer and rarer. Rare is more money.
The market for this is not the guy with the great running loved and pampered coach. I get that. And that is most of you here.
The market is the new GMCer. The one looking at SOB. Giving them something that will hold valve and be COOL. The Guy spending $25,000 with Jim or Jeff on the coach they have always wanted. So you with the running great coach, think about the added value for your coach in the market, Not, I can fix mine for X. I get it.
This is for the NEXT 40 years. Our Coach bodies will last. Aluminum and fiberglass last longer than any steel.
This needs to be done. Source all parts from this century. Give them a NEW engine. The latest trans that will work. And build nice replacement front clip.
I have build championship race cars from scratch. Then at the request of customers jigged up and built duplicates. My friend has built about 20 cars out of that jig in the last 17 years,So long are there are customers willing to pay he will keep making them.
The front clip of our coaches really has few pickup points to the body. Make the tires in the wheel well, and it's pretty wide open.
So the big question still is what is it worth, and what will people pay and what does it cost to make?
As I said in the other thread. The HT383 to 425 trans is fairly easy. And as soon as I get the right pan to start with, it will be done.
Next levels, I believe I can do it. but as Ken said It's a huge project that someone might need help with.
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| Re: The Next Solution [message #318835 is a reply to message #318819] |
Sat, 10 June 2017 16:58  |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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This would answer all the doubts and concerns... a modern engine matched to a modern multispeed transmission. Basically see what front axle and driveline out of a one ton pickup willl fit in the space.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: The Next Solution [message #318837 is a reply to message #318819] |
Sat, 10 June 2017 17:38 |
ree_eric
Messages: 43
Registered: February 2004
Location: Alexandria, Ontario, Cana...
Karma: 0
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I like the idea of the whole front clip. This may not be big enough... GVW is 8900 payload 3900 towing 5100
"The 3.0L EcoDiesel I4 engine is the strongest engine for the Ram Promaster and have 295 LB-FT Torque.
The Transmission to this engine is a six-speed automated manual transmission:
The driver can shift manually without use of a clutch or the transmission can shift without driver input
Offers the efficiency of a manual with the functionality and convenience of an automatic transmission
Sequential and non-sequential shifting"
It is FWD, I have this type of transmission in a VW diesel Car and is is great, a standard transmission controlled by the computer, feels like an automatic with no slip.
Eric & Ree '74 ex-Sequoia (parts) '75 Eleganza (TB, exhaust x-over blocking plates, Manny reaction arms and discs, 3"exhaust rear muffler, aux vacuum, fuel tank sealing, rebuilt senders and new rubber, propane hot water heater.) Alexandria, Ontario, Canada
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| Re: The Next Solution [message #318851 is a reply to message #318837] |
Sun, 11 June 2017 10:11 |
DetroitDan
Messages: 51
Registered: March 2017
Location: Taylor, MI
Karma: 0
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The ProMaster, equipped with a 3.0 Diesel and automated manual, can barely get out of its own way. I can't imagine what a debacle that powertrain would be in one of our coaches.
The whole front clip idea, with a modern gasoline engine and multi-speed transmission looks like a very promising.
Dan Wallace
Detroit Metro
1974 Canyon Lands 260
Headers, 3.55, 16"
Floor plan 26-9
Honda 6010
Harrison 4-bag
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| Re: The Next Solution [message #318852 is a reply to message #318819] |
Sun, 11 June 2017 11:06 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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The version with the PentaStar gas V-6 makes substantially more power and is rated at a higher GVWR. The Diesel seems to be aimed at intown delivery. They don't fit the Moto Vittori V-6 diesel to the vans that I can tell.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
[Updated on: Sun, 11 June 2017 11:07] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Next Solution [message #318855 is a reply to message #318819] |
Sun, 11 June 2017 11:27 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I see Gale Banks lists a version of the M-V V-6 at ~~ 250HP and ~~ 400 LB-ft of torque, at engine speeds close to the 455. Unfortunately, he gets 29 Large for a dressed engine. Out of my reach... but when Fiat-Chrysler starts stuffing them in Ram 1500 pickups the price should get a but more reasonable. Banks appears top be building mil spec, which puts the cost way up.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: The Next Solution [message #318857 is a reply to message #318819] |
Sun, 11 June 2017 11:55 |
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Husker92592
Messages: 137
Registered: August 2013
Location: Temecula ca
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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ken
Does it come down to money? Of course time but to upgrade the front clip with a boxed out frame and really spend the time for a jig would be great. I as well am looking a spending 25,000.00 on antiquated parts per se. You would think we could upgrade to today's times.
Can a 1 ton GM front drive off a 4 wheel truck, can it hold up to constant highway rigors?
Grant
1974 GMC Sequoia 26'
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