Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
| [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart [message #317504] |
Sat, 13 May 2017 17:40  |
richshoop
Messages: 190
Registered: April 2017
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You're right about the voltage drop being so very important, especially in lower voltage applications. I found this other website that lists the table values at '2% or less'. http://www.wiringproducts.com/automotive-wire . Before you start looking at one website for all the answers. It does not exist.
This website suggests shrink tubing over electrical crimp connectors, which if you use the typical heat shrink tubing, will result in trapping water under the heat shrink tubing, since heat shrink tubing is NOT waterproof! They make 'marine' grade heat shrink tube with hot melt adhesive added inside so it is indeed waterproof because of the hot melt.
They also suggest soldering crimp connectors as superior to crimp. It is not so! When you do solder a crimp connector, where the solder finally stops flowing up the wire away from the connector, it creates a 'hard' spot in the wire, where any vibration will cause the wire to repeatedly flex there and fail in a very short time. When you use a proper crimping tool, the flexing that is caused by vibration is spread out over a much wider distance.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart [message #317507 is a reply to message #317504] |
Sat, 13 May 2017 18:24  |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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richshoop wrote on Sat, 13 May 2017 17:40You're right about the voltage drop being so very important, especially in lower voltage applications. I found this other website that lists the table values at '2% or less'. http://www.wiringproducts.com/automotive-wire . Before you start looking at one website for all the answers. It does not exist.
This website suggests shrink tubing over electrical crimp connectors, which if you use the typical heat shrink tubing, will result in trapping water under the heat shrink tubing, since heat shrink tubing is NOT waterproof! They make 'marine' grade heat shrink tube with hot melt adhesive added inside so it is indeed waterproof because of the hot melt.
They also suggest soldering crimp connectors as superior to crimp. It is not so! When you do solder a crimp connector, where the solder finally stops flowing up the wire away from the connector, it creates a 'hard' spot in the wire, where any vibration will cause the wire to repeatedly flex there and fail in a very short time. When you use a proper crimping tool, the flexing that is caused by vibration is spread out over a much wider distance.
Heat shrink tubing info is very good to know.
Saying that soldering crimp connectors is not superior, gotta disagree.
The crimp is a "hard" spot IDENTICAL to the "hard" spot in the soldered wire. It will flex and break at the crimp the same way after the same amount of time as the soldered wire will do. But until it does break, the soldered connection has less resistance and will not loosen. And in the absence of waterproof heat shrink, much more immune to corrosion.
You and I can argue forever, and I will still solder my connectors and wire splices.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart [message #317520 is a reply to message #317511] |
Sun, 14 May 2017 01:01 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Soldering is expressly prohibited in aviation for the reason as stated. In a vibration environment wire can break at the end of the solder point where the solder saturates the wire. There is no such restriction on automotive stuff. I occasionally do solder crimp connectors. I never do it on anything aviation related or where vibration might occur. I also sometimes tin the wire to make it stiffer before inserting it in to the crimp connector. I am not saying it is correct but I do it occasionally on softer (finer) wire.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart [message #317523 is a reply to message #317504] |
Sun, 14 May 2017 08:17 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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When I went through the NASA Standard connection class at Keesler AFB many years ago, we made a lot of solder connections and then subjected them to failure on a shake table. Unless the wire is stripped with a thermal stripper or a calibrated squeeze stripper (Calibrated with a rod at the beginning of each shift) the connection will always fail at the strip point. This because any stripper with a flat blade will nick the conductor and it fails at the nick. This is true whether the connection is soldered or crimped - assuming the crimp is accomplished with the proper die in the proper tool. If you crimp with a pair of 'pliers' crimper and/or strip with a pair of dikes all bets are off.
I note that the majority of failures of the connections on Onan circuit boards are where the wire enters the 'flag' style push on connector. I suspect this is due to the method used to strip the wires 40 years ago - but can't prove it.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart [message #317527 is a reply to message #317526] |
Sun, 14 May 2017 10:59 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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One thing that we learned by failures of eutectic soldered joints was, that
they grows "whiskers" in 0 g. Communications satellites that were recovered
from orbit after failures were examined under high magnification, revealed
whiskers that grew in space on soldered connections would touch each other
and short out. Fix? Change the alloy of the solder. Who knew that would
ever happen. Aerospace engineers sure didn't.
Performance test-to-destruction knowledge has brought reliability to
new levels in the last couple of decades. The GMC MOTORHOME got some real
test track time, but I don't think it got any crash tests or shaker table
time.
When the Cascaders had their spring rally in LaConnor Washington last
year, we got to attend Kenworth trucks Paccar engineering center where they
develop new, over the road and off road heavy trucks. They have shaker
tables there big enough to hold a tractor and 55 foot semi-trailer.
Impressive for sure.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On May 14, 2017 8:35 AM, wrote:
> I don't have access to any wire prep procedures about soldering from the
> auto manufacturers, however, AMP and Molex declare it 'not recommended'
> (aviation speak for it will fail). Every amateur radio operator will
> disagree, Those blasted flag connectors have always been a big problem and
> a reoccurring point of failure. There are double crimped flag connectors
> which will increase the service life. http://www.elecdirect.com/
> media/specsheets/35WMP.pdf
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ken Burton"
> To: "gmclist"
> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 11:01:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
>
> Soldering is expressly prohibited in aviation for the reason as stated. In
> a vibration environment wire can break at the end of the solder point
> where the solder saturates the wire. There is no such restriction on
> automotive stuff. I occasionally do solder crimp connectors. I never do it
> on
> anything aviation related or where vibration might occur. I also sometimes
> tin the wire to make it stiffer before inserting it in to the crimp
> connector. I am not saying it is correct but I do it occasionally on
> softer (finer) wire.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart [message #317540 is a reply to message #317527] |
Sun, 14 May 2017 15:29 |
richshoop
Messages: 190
Registered: April 2017
Karma: 0
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Do you happen to have a link to some micrographs of the whiskers?
I don't think they ever put a GMC MH on a shaker table but from what I have read, they did do a crash test and they did roll one over.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Hupy"
To: "gmclist"
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 8:59:27 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
One thing that we learned by failures of eutectic soldered joints was, that
they grows "whiskers" in 0 g. Communications satellites that were recovered
from orbit after failures were examined under high magnification, revealed
whiskers that grew in space on soldered connections would touch each other
and short out. Fix? Change the alloy of the solder. Who knew that would
ever happen. Aerospace engineers sure didn't.
Performance test-to-destruction knowledge has brought reliability to
new levels in the last couple of decades. The GMC MOTORHOME got some real
test track time, but I don't think it got any crash tests or shaker table
time.
When the Cascaders had their spring rally in LaConnor Washington last
year, we got to attend Kenworth trucks Paccar engineering center where they
develop new, over the road and off road heavy trucks. They have shaker
tables there big enough to hold a tractor and 55 foot semi-trailer.
Impressive for sure.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On May 14, 2017 8:35 AM, wrote:
> I don't have access to any wire prep procedures about soldering from the
> auto manufacturers, however, AMP and Molex declare it 'not recommended'
> (aviation speak for it will fail). Every amateur radio operator will
> disagree, Those blasted flag connectors have always been a big problem and
> a reoccurring point of failure. There are double crimped flag connectors
> which will increase the service life. http://www.elecdirect.com/
> media/specsheets/35WMP.pdf
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Ken Burton"
> To: "gmclist"
> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 11:01:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
>
> Soldering is expressly prohibited in aviation for the reason as stated. In
> a vibration environment wire can break at the end of the solder point
> where the solder saturates the wire. There is no such restriction on
> automotive stuff. I occasionally do solder crimp connectors. I never do it
> on
> anything aviation related or where vibration might occur. I also sometimes
> tin the wire to make it stiffer before inserting it in to the crimp
> connector. I am not saying it is correct but I do it occasionally on
> softer (finer) wire.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart [message #317541 is a reply to message #317540] |
Sun, 14 May 2017 15:40 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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It was a few years back, when they recovered a communications satellite
that I believe was co-owned by a telephone company and the U.S. government.
I do not know which agency. A big deal was made about the recovery in
space, as it was in a geosynchronous orbit quite a few thousand miles
higher than the recovery craft were normally operated in. I will look
online to see if I can find any info about it again.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On May 14, 2017 1:30 PM, wrote:
> Do you happen to have a link to some micrographs of the whiskers?
>
> I don't think they ever put a GMC MH on a shaker table but from what I
> have read, they did do a crash test and they did roll one over.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "James Hupy"
> To: "gmclist"
> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 8:59:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
>
> One thing that we learned by failures of eutectic soldered joints was, that
> they grows "whiskers" in 0 g. Communications satellites that were recovered
> from orbit after failures were examined under high magnification, revealed
> whiskers that grew in space on soldered connections would touch each other
> and short out. Fix? Change the alloy of the solder. Who knew that would
> ever happen. Aerospace engineers sure didn't.
> Performance test-to-destruction knowledge has brought reliability to
> new levels in the last couple of decades. The GMC MOTORHOME got some real
> test track time, but I don't think it got any crash tests or shaker table
> time.
> When the Cascaders had their spring rally in LaConnor Washington last
> year, we got to attend Kenworth trucks Paccar engineering center where they
> develop new, over the road and off road heavy trucks. They have shaker
> tables there big enough to hold a tractor and 55 foot semi-trailer.
> Impressive for sure.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
> On May 14, 2017 8:35 AM, wrote:
>
>> I don't have access to any wire prep procedures about soldering from the
>> auto manufacturers, however, AMP and Molex declare it 'not recommended'
>> (aviation speak for it will fail). Every amateur radio operator will
>> disagree, Those blasted flag connectors have always been a big problem
> and
>> a reoccurring point of failure. There are double crimped flag connectors
>> which will increase the service life. http://www.elecdirect.com/
>> media/specsheets/35WMP.pdf
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: "Ken Burton"
>> To: "gmclist"
>> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 11:01:41 PM
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
>>
>> Soldering is expressly prohibited in aviation for the reason as stated.
> In
>> a vibration environment wire can break at the end of the solder point
>> where the solder saturates the wire. There is no such restriction on
>> automotive stuff. I occasionally do solder crimp connectors. I never do
> it
>> on
>> anything aviation related or where vibration might occur. I also
> sometimes
>> tin the wire to make it stiffer before inserting it in to the crimp
>> connector. I am not saying it is correct but I do it occasionally on
>> softer (finer) wire.
>> --
>> Ken Burton - N9KB
>> 76 Palm Beach
>> Hebron, Indiana
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart [message #317542 is a reply to message #317504] |
Sun, 14 May 2017 16:21 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Look at; System Design: Death by Tin Whiskers-Avionics
www.aviationtoday.com There is a whole bunch more stuff there about tin
whiskers, but I could not find the nasa article specific to recovered
sattelites.
Jim Hupy
On May 14, 2017 1:40 PM, "James Hupy" wrote:
It was a few years back, when they recovered a communications satellite
that I believe was co-owned by a telephone company and the U.S. government.
I do not know which agency. A big deal was made about the recovery in
space, as it was in a geosynchronous orbit quite a few thousand miles
higher than the recovery craft were normally operated in. I will look
online to see if I can find any info about it again.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On May 14, 2017 1:30 PM, wrote:
> Do you happen to have a link to some micrographs of the whiskers?
>
> I don't think they ever put a GMC MH on a shaker table but from what I
> have read, they did do a crash test and they did roll one over.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "James Hupy"
> To: "gmclist"
> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 8:59:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
>
> One thing that we learned by failures of eutectic soldered joints was, that
> they grows "whiskers" in 0 g. Communications satellites that were recovered
> from orbit after failures were examined under high magnification, revealed
> whiskers that grew in space on soldered connections would touch each other
> and short out. Fix? Change the alloy of the solder. Who knew that would
> ever happen. Aerospace engineers sure didn't.
> Performance test-to-destruction knowledge has brought reliability to
> new levels in the last couple of decades. The GMC MOTORHOME got some real
> test track time, but I don't think it got any crash tests or shaker table
> time.
> When the Cascaders had their spring rally in LaConnor Washington last
> year, we got to attend Kenworth trucks Paccar engineering center where they
> develop new, over the road and off road heavy trucks. They have shaker
> tables there big enough to hold a tractor and 55 foot semi-trailer.
> Impressive for sure.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
> On May 14, 2017 8:35 AM, wrote:
>
>> I don't have access to any wire prep procedures about soldering from the
>> auto manufacturers, however, AMP and Molex declare it 'not recommended'
>> (aviation speak for it will fail). Every amateur radio operator will
>> disagree, Those blasted flag connectors have always been a big problem
> and
>> a reoccurring point of failure. There are double crimped flag connectors
>> which will increase the service life. http://www.elecdirect.com/
>> media/specsheets/35WMP.pdf
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: "Ken Burton"
>> To: "gmclist"
>> Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2017 11:01:41 PM
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wire sizing chart
>>
>> Soldering is expressly prohibited in aviation for the reason as stated.
> In
>> a vibration environment wire can break at the end of the solder point
>> where the solder saturates the wire. There is no such restriction on
>> automotive stuff. I occasionally do solder crimp connectors. I never do
> it
>> on
>> anything aviation related or where vibration might occur. I also
> sometimes
>> tin the wire to make it stiffer before inserting it in to the crimp
>> connector. I am not saying it is correct but I do it occasionally on
>> softer (finer) wire.
>> --
>> Ken Burton - N9KB
>> 76 Palm Beach
>> Hebron, Indiana
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] tin whiskers was Wire sizing chart [message #317558 is a reply to message #317545] |
Mon, 15 May 2017 10:58 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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This is the only tin whiskers I worry about.
Started by some Electrical Engineers I used to work with!
twbrewing.com
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of James Hupy
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2017 4:50:48 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] tin whiskers was Wire sizing chart
Good one Steve, something else to keep the worry warts awake at night,
besides air bags blowing up and Propane tank leaks. That one is written so
the "ordinary man" might have a chance of understanding it. (grin)
Jim Hupy
On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Steve Southworth
wrote:
> Try this link
>
> https://nepp.nasa.gov/Whisker/background/index.htm
> --
> Steve Southworth
> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
> Palmyra WI
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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