Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD (Hard lines for tanks)
ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311503] |
Fri, 16 December 2016 13:12 |
Atom Ant
Messages: 170 Registered: October 2016 Location: Austin, TX
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I know, I know...another gas tank thread.
I bought a coil of 3/8 poly for the tank lines. I tried to flare it and...Nope. cant get the flaring tool to grip the line. I'll be cutting off two inches and returning to the store. (I kept it in the coil because I had a feeling...)
after reading what I thought was every thread on this forum about gas tanks, I came across one for hard lines. Of course.
what length pre-made poly lines are used? I'd like to buy supplies before doing the job. I know I'll end up in town for some stupid thing, probably more than once. but the fewer the better.
also, I have NO experience with compression fittings. I don't need the latest and greatest, just what will work well.
do I really NEED to use compression fittings to the senders? I was planning on using hose, but if the lines already come with half the fitting...
i am not doing the whole system in hard line. I'm anxious to get a trip under my belt, and if I get a few years out of these lines (using barrier greenshield) that will suffice.
Plus, doing it again in a few years will be a great lesson for my son.
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311504 is a reply to message #311503] |
Fri, 16 December 2016 13:35 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324 Registered: October 2010 Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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flaring any type of tube, either requires luck for it to work and hold the tube, or requires a really good flare tool as you found out.
for metal, I have used an eastwood flaring tube, and it will be really difficult to use anything less in the future.
http://www.eastwood.com/professional-brake-tubing-flaring-tool.html
I am not sure what you are asking as for the compression. You would want an all brass compression connectors, but the barrier rubber fuel lines should just go over the fuel tank senders or other lines, and secure it with a good hose clamp(stainless preferred).
I originally restrung my fuel lines with all rubber. I plan on doing another coach this spring, and my plan is to use metal lines on top of the tanks. Some people claim you will not ever have to go up there if you use metal, but I am more planning on using the metal lines, because I feel the metal lines will stay put when you raise and lower the tanks. The hard part on my last job, was making sure the fuel lines on top of the tanks did not fall out of place, or get pinched anywhere.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311505 is a reply to message #311504] |
Fri, 16 December 2016 14:52 |
Atom Ant
Messages: 170 Registered: October 2016 Location: Austin, TX
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lqqkatjon wrote on Fri, 16 December 2016 13:35flaring any type of tube, either requires luck for it to work and hold the tube, or requires a really good flare tool as you found out.
for metal, I have used an eastwood flaring tube, and it will be really difficult to use anything less in the future.
http://www.eastwood.com/professional-brake-tubing-flaring-tool.html
I am not sure what you are asking as for the compression. You would want an all brass compression connectors, but the barrier rubber fuel lines should just go over the fuel tank senders or other lines, and secure it with a good hose clamp(stainless preferred).
I originally restrung my fuel lines with all rubber. I plan on doing another coach this spring, and my plan is to use metal lines on top of the tanks. Some people claim you will not ever have to go up there if you use metal, but I am more planning on using the metal lines, because I feel the metal lines will stay put when you raise and lower the tanks. The hard part on my last job, was making sure the fuel lines on top of the tanks did not fall out of place, or get pinched anywhere.
I've seen pics where there are compression fittings on the sending units, instead of using fuel line to connect the two. that is what my question was about.
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311506 is a reply to message #311504] |
Fri, 16 December 2016 15:18 |
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pjburt
Messages: 436 Registered: February 2016 Location: Fresno, California
Karma: 1
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lqqkatjon wrote on Fri, 16 December 2016 11:35
The hard part on my last job, was making sure the fuel lines on top of the tanks did not fall out of place, or get pinched anywhere.
I thought that was what duct tape was for
Jerry Burt Fresno, CA.
73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands
Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS
A truly happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery on a detour.
[Updated on: Fri, 16 December 2016 15:18] Report message to a moderator
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311511 is a reply to message #311503] |
Fri, 16 December 2016 18:48 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Atom Ant wrote on Fri, 16 December 2016 14:12 I know, I know...another gas tank thread.
I bought a coil of 3/8 poly for the tank lines. I tried to flare it and...Nope. cant get the flaring tool to grip the line. I'll be cutting off two inches and returning to the store. (I kept it in the coil because I had a feeling...)
after reading what I thought was every thread on this forum about gas tanks, I came across one for hard lines. Of course.
what length pre-made poly lines are used? I'd like to buy supplies before doing the job. I know I'll end up in town for some stupid thing, probably more than once. but the fewer the better.
also, I have NO experience with compression fittings. I don't need the latest and greatest, just what will work well.
do I really NEED to use compression fittings to the senders? I was planning on using hose, but if the lines already come with half the fitting...
i am not doing the whole system in hard line. I'm anxious to get a trip under my belt, and if I get a few years out of these lines (using barrier greenshield) that will suffice.
Plus, doing it again in a few years will be a great lesson for my son.
Adam,
Use the search at the top right <enter as subject> and and search for and read all of two threads:
<recommending high> Recommending High T, 29 July 2012 21:06
<lifting fuel tanks> Lifting fuel tanks when alone 27 June 2012 10:06
I have had to have my fuel tanks down way too many times. If you notice the newest of the threads is 6 years old. Now think that before that, it was rare that a year went by that I did not have to have the tanks down for some very good reason. I had previously replaced some of the rubber with what I had on hand and it did not last four years. If you have doubts about the sending units, replace or have them rebuilt with modern materials.
This was the last time and the summary of a lot of experience. I copied much of what others had done.
=> Like sawing the clamp bubble off the connections and using brass compression fittings to make the connections. (Emery Stora)
=> Polyarmor line was used every place that I could. (Rob Muller iirc) Buy a coil of 3/8 and 5/16 and lots of nuts and a few couplings.
=> I borrowed an amazing flare tool that I would have purchased years ago if I had known about it. (Mike Kruse)
Sawing the bubbles off takes some care, but when the tanks are out you can stand them so the chips fall out.
Polyarmor line is really neat, easily formed and very corrosion resistant.
A MasterCool 71475 will cost near 300$ (on Ebay). It does not require a bench vise as does the Eastwood device. You will be double flaring and bubble flaring:
1/4 for the vapor vent and APU fuel lines
5/16 for the vapor vent to the vent valve
3/8 for the fuel draw and fill vent lines (lots of it)
Put a 2*4 across a couple of saw horses to unroll and straighten the line before you try to work it. Do the longest lines first. (That ways you can reuse the mistakes for the shorter pieces. --BTDT)
When you consider what you might have to pay for someone to do all this, that MasterCool set is suddenly affordable. DO NOT even consider using a cheap (~40$) as you will waste every bit of the savings in scrap material. (Not to mention the time lost.) (Just as a reference, I used to do serious refrigeration. The replacement for the flaring tool I had to buy to be successful is now well over 100$ for a single flare tool for copper.)
When I did mine the last time (I made sure it would be the last time.) I only used rubber line (not the same again, this time it was SAE J30-R14 (R9 is for fuel injection and has a higher pressure rating). And I only used it where it could be replaced if I was lying on the ground next to the coach. This plan has been good for four years and I have every confidence that will continue to be so.
Oh yeah.. When you go to take the tanks down (assuming you are on you back and alone) take the fill piping down first and put it back in last. Things work better that way.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311513 is a reply to message #311503] |
Fri, 16 December 2016 19:39 |
Atom Ant
Messages: 170 Registered: October 2016 Location: Austin, TX
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I'm not gonna pay 300.00 for a flaring tool. that could get a few other projects done. So it's either all rubber, or mostly rubber.
I'd like to use poly armour for the tank tops, that's why I asked the length needed. If I can avoid dropping the tanks in the future, I'd like to do it, but not at the cost of 300.00 before I even buy supplies.
just does not compute.
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311514 is a reply to message #311513] |
Fri, 16 December 2016 19:54 |
Larry
Messages: 2875 Registered: January 2004 Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Atom Ant wrote on Fri, 16 December 2016 19:39I'm not gonna pay 300.00 for a flaring tool. that could get a few other projects done. So it's either all rubber, or mostly rubber.
I'd like to use poly armour for the tank tops, that's why I asked the length needed. If I can avoid dropping the tanks in the future, I'd like to do it, but not at the cost of 300.00 before I even buy supplies.
just does not compute.
I used poly armor lines on the tank tops with compression fittings. Cannot find my records for the compression fittings that I used, but I did go to MC Mastercarr and searched "compression fittings", and ended up buying some steel compression fittings that were designed to withstand something over 1000lbs of pressure. I did that because I felt that the standard 3/8" brass fittings that you can get at...say "Ace Hardware"... might work harden over time and leak. I also did it because, at the same time that I replaced the lines, I put the fuel pumps in the tanks. The FI that I am running requires 52lbs running pressure...more than the average pressure that most are running, and the security of having fittings that would hold up to that pressure over a long period of time was worth the extra couple of bucks I spent for the steel fittings. JWID
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311516 is a reply to message #311514] |
Fri, 16 December 2016 20:07 |
Larry
Messages: 2875 Registered: January 2004 Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Larry wrote on Fri, 16 December 2016 19:54Atom Ant wrote on Fri, 16 December 2016 19:39I'm not gonna pay 300.00 for a flaring tool. that could get a few other projects done. So it's either all rubber, or mostly rubber.
I'd like to use poly armour for the tank tops, that's why I asked the length needed. If I can avoid dropping the tanks in the future, I'd like to do it, but not at the cost of 300.00 before I even buy supplies.
just does not compute.
I used poly armor lines on the tank tops with compression fittings. Cannot find my records for the compression fittings that I used, but I did go to MC Mastercarr and searched "compression fittings", and ended up buying some steel compression fittings that were designed to withstand something over 1000lbs of pressure. I did that because I felt that the standard 3/8" brass fittings that you can get at...say "Ace Hardware"... might work harden over time and leak. I also did it because, at the same time that I replaced the lines, I put the fuel pumps in the tanks. The FI that I am running requires 52lbs running pressure...more than the average pressure that most are running, and the security of having fittings that would hold up to that pressure over a long period of time was worth the extra couple of bucks I spent for the steel fittings. JWID
I think this might have been the one I used. https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-single-sleeve-compression-tube-fittings/=15i0rrm
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311526 is a reply to message #311517] |
Sat, 17 December 2016 13:47 |
Atom Ant
Messages: 170 Registered: October 2016 Location: Austin, TX
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RF_Burns wrote on Fri, 16 December 2016 21:05I used pre-made lengths that were (I believe) 48" long. I cut the flared end off at the tank side and used brass compression fittings. I slid the rubber hose over the flared end (it was not hard) and used injection hose clamps.
Can i clarify? You cut the flare off the senders, and the poly armour tube, and used flareless fittings on the sender end, and slid the hose on the end at the edge of the tank? Is that correct?
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311566 is a reply to message #311503] |
Tue, 20 December 2016 20:01 |
Atom Ant
Messages: 170 Registered: October 2016 Location: Austin, TX
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I finally got a chance to get my coach jacked up to get a good look at the fuel line mess under there.
At least one tank vent blocked off. Some hoses look new, others have moss on them.
I found a wire harness zip tied to the fuel lines, is this the wires for the senders? Runs through the frame and up into the coach at the side?
If I were to remove the filler pipe, do I need to access it from the inside drivers side wall? Or can I get it out through the wheel well?
What is the foam grommet material that the filler pipe and vent run through?
Has anyone seen or made a list of what size fuel lines go where in the system? (3/8 from sender to T, 1/2 to engine, etc)
I also discovered a hole in the exhaust system under the step. Oh boy!
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311569 is a reply to message #311566] |
Wed, 21 December 2016 07:36 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Adam,
Responses are lead by => after each.
Atom Ant wrote on Tue, 20 December 2016 21:01I finally got a chance to get my coach jacked up to get a good look at the fuel line mess under there.
At least one tank vent blocked off. Some hoses look new, others have moss on them.
=> Not uncommon. A lot of people are good with doing half the job half fast.
I found a wire harness zip tied to the fuel lines, is this the wires for the senders? Runs through the frame and up into the coach at the side?
=> That is for the senders and the tank selector valve.
If I were to remove the filler pipe, do I need to access it from the inside drivers side wall? Or can I get it out through the wheel well?
=> No, but removing the wheel well liner will get you a lot more access.
=> You can disconnect the fill pipe at the rubber joint where it turns up and move the vent T to under the cab floor.
What is the foam grommet material that the filler pipe and vent run through?
=> My 73 doesn't seem to have that.
Has anyone seen or made a list of what size fuel lines go where in the system? (3/8 from sender to T, 1/2 to engine, etc)
=> The only 1/2 is from the fill vent T to the fill neck.
=> The draw lines and fill vent are both 3/8.
=> The vapor vent lines to the vapor separator valve are 5/16.
=> The run from the valve to the carbon canister and the fuel for the generator are both 1/4.
I also discovered a hole in the exhaust system under the step. Oh boy!
Adam, at some point in the future, you will get caught up and she will only require the regular maintenance and the odd repair. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311583 is a reply to message #311578] |
Thu, 22 December 2016 19:25 |
wrahmer
Messages: 6 Registered: November 2014 Location: United States
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I used nylon brake line tubing and dot fittings for fuel line and vents. Been on 4 years, still looks new. Keep away from the exhaust, nylon don't like high heat.
Bill Rahmer
Lecanto,fl
76 Eleganza
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311586 is a reply to message #311503] |
Fri, 23 December 2016 09:29 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447 Registered: October 2006 Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Search "Gates barricade fuel hose selection" and watch the video. I think with the correct selection of hose, you don't need to reengineer the system. Plus you retain the flexible hose where it was designded to be to prevent adding stress and vibration cracking potential. JWID.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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Re: ANOTHER GAS LINE THREAD [message #311589 is a reply to message #311503] |
Fri, 23 December 2016 14:14 |
Atom Ant
Messages: 170 Registered: October 2016 Location: Austin, TX
Karma: 0
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Thanks everyone-
I'm going hard lines on the tanks, with compression fittings, rubber everywhere else. That way I can replace everything easily, and not worry about hose on top of the tanks.
I plan on running all fuel lines outside the frame to reduce heat, as well as fuel pump and filter.
I figure I can attach some sort of absorber to the hard lines to reduce rattle and stress on the compression fittings. Maybe pass them through a small foam block or something. Is there movement here that I need to be concerned with, or am I overthinking it?
since I already started gathering supplies, I'll be running Gates barricade.
I'll measure out the hard lines, then get a brake shop to flare them, since I broke my flaring tool trying to flare the poly armour. do I NEED to flare them? Will two inches of contact and a hose clamp work?
1976 Palm Beach
Austin, TX
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