Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Electrical demands?
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| Re: Electrical demands? [message #310532 is a reply to message #310530] |
Fri, 18 November 2016 07:26   |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Aren't you guys talking Apples and Oranges here?
I believe he is asking about 120VAC stuff and you are replying about 12VDC stuff.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Electrical demands? [message #310536 is a reply to message #310514] |
Fri, 18 November 2016 08:40 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Mike,
As your coach left the assembly barn, it was set up as 30Amp 120Volt. Unless someone installed a complex and expensive power management system, you will have to use neurons to keep the AC power in line.
What you need to do is one of two things, either:
Get a look at the manufacturer's on -
Get a device called a Kill-A-Watt and measure the power consumption of -
...each and everything in the coach and then decide what you can have on line at any given time.
There are some gotchas in here.
The water heater is at the top of this list. That thing is largely autonomous and can flip on at any time when it is powered. It is best to know how to shut it down when things are close.
The converter can be, but it should not. You have a 60amp Converter/Charger? The most mine ever pulls on the line is about 7 Amps of AC, and that is not for very long.
This is called energy management. It is simple if you can use neurons, but if not then you have to plan on spending money or having the power shut down.
This is why GM elected to make all its coaches 50amp. In complete honesty, I was part of the RV world at that time and the discussion was that all RV parks would soon be either real 50amp or a thing that they called Twin-30. Fortunately, the dangers and pitfalls of the Twin-30 plan were soon seen and it has disappeared. The unfortunate thing is that this short side trip made many drop any plans of upgrade.
As we don't know what your coach came with and what has been changed in the last 40 years, you are kind of stuck doing this your self.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical demands? [message #310537 is a reply to message #310533] |
Fri, 18 November 2016 08:54 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Mike,
I am also with Bruce with the issue of an integrated power panel with an internal 12VDC power converter. There are power distribution panels that have a 120VAC CB on one side and as DCV fuses or DC circuit breakers on the other side. I found one a Bontrager's in there surplus electrical section. I will go out to the Avion and look at the box and see if it has a manufacture or part number on the box.
It is similar to this item:
or
http://tinyurl.com/hleto6c
If the internal power converter ever fails then your screwed. You would have to take it apart and remove the damage internal unit and wire it for an external unit.
JWIWD your experience may vary.
JR Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMC Eastern States Charter Member
GMCGL Tech Editor
GMCMI
78 GMC Buskirk 30’ Stretch
1975 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
> On Nov 18, 2016, at 8:55 AM, Bruce Hislop wrote:
>
> Mike,
> It looks like a nice setup. The transfer switch will select generator or shore power automatically. The transfer switch is rated at 30 Amps which is
> what your shore power cord is rated for. The AC power distribution also has a 30 amp main breaker.
>
> The voltage converter/charger is built into the A/C - D/C power distribution panel. It appears to be a 45Amp @ 12V DC converter which should do
> nicely.
>
> The only issue I see with this setup is with the power converter being built into the distribution panel. If the power converter fails, the only power
> converter replacement will likely be another Progressive Dynamics OEM converter. So it if fails and you cannot easily get a replacement, a different
> type of converter may not easily connect to the panel.
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop
> ON Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
> Hubler 1 ton front end
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
>
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: Electrical demands? [message #310544 is a reply to message #310514] |
Fri, 18 November 2016 10:22 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Keep in mind the GM 14-50 NEMA system is really 100A available as there are 2 120V legs coming in at 50A (technically dual 40A main in most GMC panels). Therefore 50A is not 20A more than Coachmen 30A (simple math) but instead has 70A more available on the cord set. Even if the GMC Main breaker is a dual 40A, 80-30= 50A more than Coachmen TT-30 setup. Hence the big disparity and realization that the GMC 14-50 is more than you could ever need. Glad they went with it as you can easily addapt it to TT-30 at an old camp and then to Edison if need be.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Electrical demands? [message #310549 is a reply to message #310544] |
Fri, 18 November 2016 11:00 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Recommend putting a on-off switch in the hot water line. Turn it on about half hour before anticipating need. Progressive Dynamics is a known good brand, nothing to fear here.
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: Electrical demands? [message #310588 is a reply to message #310514] |
Fri, 18 November 2016 20:11 |
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GMC Jimmy
Messages: 199
Registered: September 2016
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Karma: 2
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tphipps... Thanks for the tip, I believe my water heater has a ON/OFF switch, it was located at the side of the sink counter. I'm sure it says ATWOOD.
Matt... Thanks for your input as well, as mentioned above I disconnected a switch during the removal of the counter, I do believe it is a switch for the water heater.
Bruce & John... If I understand correctly my PD set-up has a built in converter / charger, it's a decent set-up with a possible downside. If the converter fails I'll likely require another PD converter, if a replacement exists I'm OK, if not, chances of finding a replacement that fits into this box are slim?
If this is correct should I, A) purchase a spare just in case, B) consider, if it's possible, integrating another converter / charger or C) something else?
This is all very new to me so bear with me if my questions are redundant.
How does an inverter fit into this, if at all?
BTW, Bruce I see you are in S. Ontario, are you near Niagara?
Have a great weekend,
Regards,
Mike
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| Re: Electrical demands? [message #310592 is a reply to message #310591] |
Fri, 18 November 2016 21:56 |
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GMC Jimmy
Messages: 199
Registered: September 2016
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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RF_Burns wrote on Fri, 18 November 2016 22:43Mike,
I would not worry over it, its just a downside of having an all-in-one solution. You may go years without an issue.
As for the inverter, my opinion is they are for specific devices, like a TV. Using an inverter for large loads like a microwave or coffee make draw way too much current. Use your generator for that.
I'm near London ON.
Thanks Bruce, let me know if you are ever visiting Niagara or simply passing through?
I would like to take advantage of the in-motion satellite system so I'm planning on installing 2 TV's,(there were 2 TV's in the coach), I'm thinking of a Bose Lifestyle DVD - sound system as well. Does this sound like a good case for a inverter?
If so what would you recommend?
Regards,
Mike
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| Re: Electrical demands? [message #310596 is a reply to message #310588] |
Sat, 19 November 2016 07:33 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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GMC Jimmy wrote on Fri, 18 November 2016 21:11<snip>
Bruce & John... If I understand correctly my PD set-up has a built in converter / charger, it's a decent set-up with a possible downside. If the converter fails I'll likely require another PD converter, if a replacement exists I'm OK, if not, chances of finding a replacement that fits into this box are slim?
If this is correct should I, A) purchase a spare just in case, B) consider, if it's possible, integrating another converter / charger or C) something else?
This is all very new to me so bear with me if my questions are redundant. <Nobody Minds>
How does an inverter fit into this, if at all?
<snip>
Have a great weekend,
Regards,
Mike
Mike,
The panel you bought has a PD4045 in it. All of PD stuff is proving to be both good and reliable. If it is going to fail out of warranty it will probably be 10 or more years and if PD is still in business (one never knows these days) they will have a pop-in replacement (just like they sell for other company's panels) available.
As to inverters, they vary in price and capability widely.
When you have the component list for the entertainment complete, see what of it you can get that is already DC friendly. (Some devices come with a power brick that supplies it with ~12V DC. Then scurry around the web and try to find out if any single component has been reported to have a problem with a modified square wave for power. If you find none, try using a MSW first as they are CHEAP. Do not buy too much more than your maximum expected load as it will be a waste. I do like pure sine wave inverters better, but they are a lot more expensive. You may have no choice.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Electrical demands? [message #310599 is a reply to message #310514] |
Sat, 19 November 2016 08:17 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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My 26' coach had two TVs permanently installed - one R CA and one Neve. The Neve dies to PCS, I replaced it with a small Seiki. All of them had external 12 volt wall warts. They're no powered off the house 12 volt supply and work well.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Electrical demands? [message #310602 is a reply to message #310514] |
Sat, 19 November 2016 09:12 |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Mike,
I don't have any experience with the moving satellite dishes. When we are out with the Murray we are trying to escape everything. We have a 18" flat screen which I think was used for less than 30 minutes total this past year.
I can tell you that most modern electronic devices use switching power wide voltage power supplies. Most don't care about line frequency or shape as long as its between ~90 to ~260 volts. Look on the label for the voltage range. They will take modified sine wave just fine.
Devices that use a transformer power supply or devices with motors (like my all electric fridge) only like sine wave power.
Look up the specs on all the devices you plan to install. Add up the devices power requirements ( in watts) to see how much power you will need from the inverter. All devices have an in-rush current that is much higher when first plugged in, for that reason I suggest doubling the total watts to select your power inverter. So if your total power is say 300 watts, I would get a 600 watt inverter. If you go way oversize, the larger inverter will be consuming more standby current.
You should also be aware of the battery size and run time. For 300 watt load @ 12 volts that's 300/12 = 25 amps. The inverter is not 100% efficient, most are 80-90% so lets pick 80% so the inverter will consume 31 amps. Most people use two 6 volt golf cart batteries which are just over 200amp/hrs, so lets use 200 amp/hrs. With a lead-acid battery the lower the discharge level the shorter the overall battery life. You should not discharge it below 50% so that means you have 100Amp Hrs. But the 200Amp/hr rating is at 5C rate (20hrs @10 amps). At 25amps you may have only 150Amp/hrs of capacity so at 50% that leaves 75Amp/hrs.
So 75Amp/hrs divided by a 31 amp load = 2.4 hours of use. In the real world it will likely be closer to 2 hours. To be really kind to the battery you should not charge it fast than 5C (20 hours to recharge), but in the real world you can put that charge back in the battery in about 6 hours. You can charge it faster, but battery life is again reduced.
If you are driving down the road, the engine alternator should keep up with this, although you may want to have it tested and look into installing a larger engine alternator.
If you are going to use this coach as a stationary party, you may want to look a small generator that is quiet and can handle this small load. It will not however handle an air-conditioner.
I have an all electric fridge so I am considering go to LiFePO battery. These batteries can be discharged to 80% without harm and can be recharged much faster. They also weight much less. Progressive Dynamics are now advertising a LiFePO converter charger.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery
Just some thoughts.
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical demands? [message #310628 is a reply to message #310617] |
Sun, 20 November 2016 02:09 |
Olly Schmidt
Messages: 1265
Registered: February 2014
Location: Germany and Scottsville, ...
Karma: 8
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Senior Member |
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Mike,
> I'll need to do some research on inverters in the meantime.
I have my eyes set on the Vicron Multiplus Charger/Inverter - looks very
interesting.
--
Best regards
Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA
'76a Eleganza II, VA
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Best regards
Olly Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x18a9 3a1f 4196 bf22
'76a Eleganza II, VA
'73 Sequoia, SH, Germany
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