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| [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson [message #309954] |
Sat, 05 November 2016 12:44  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Yesterday I undertook the simple, 30 minute job of replacing the GMC's
combination valve. As some of you know, from my 2007 album
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g3510-deciphering-
the-combination-valve.html, I disabled the metering valve function of the
combination valve. I've continued to use that old iron-bodid gadget with
my 6-wheel disc brakes satisfactorily until the last few months. During
brake tinkering, I've managed to turn on the "failed system" warning light
a couple of times. The first time it was a little difficult to reset. The
latest time I've had no luck resetting it. So I decided to get a modern
brass disc/disc valve to replace my antique.
Removing the old valve proved a bit of a challenge because I the line to
the rear brakes requires an adapter fitting between the valve and the rear
tube. That fitting hadn't been removed since the valve was built. I had
to put the valve in a vice and really "get on it" to remove it. The flare
nut wrench I was using even slipped once. A lot of trouble just to get a
1/4" female flare to 1/4" male pipe thread adapter!
Planning to quickly switch all of the lines over, avoiding emptying the
master clyinder reservoirs and the consequent bleeding task, my plan was
slightly disrupted by that fitting problem. But I went ahead and connected
the 3 lines for the front brakes, before the brake fluid quit running; and,
I connected the line from the MC for the rear brakes. But that darned rear
tube WOULD NOT line up -- I simply could NOT get the thread started. So, I
removed the adapter, thinking to put it on the tube loosely, then install
the MPT into the valve. WHAAAT! The female flare end of the adapter was
OVAL!!! Remember that slipped wrench I mentioned? Yep, it essentially
destroyed the adapter. :-(
No big deal, aside from all that brake fluid still dribbling out. I'll
just run to NAPA, 1-1/2 miles away and get I replacement. And so I did.
Guess what -- that MPT would not fit the valve! It was "loose as a
goose". Hmmm--calipers, please. Yep, the old fitting's tread OD is 0.025"
greater than the new 1/4" MPT! So, back to NAPA. Even the "old heads" at
that well stocked, usually reliable store were baffled and had to refund my
$2.47.
Off to O'Reilly's. "Oh, that's just a standard 1/4" MPT." Right. 'Cept
it's not, they finally had to admit. On to Advance Auto, where I was
greeted by an old acquaintance who said "Of course we've got it -- what do
you want to bet?" "$2.47". In the back at the fittings bin, he was just
as shocked as everyone else. "Darn, I wish I'd bet you big bucks", I
said. Then I looked down at the Metric section of the cabinet --
Hmmmm...and pulled the drawer that said "1/4 MPT to 1/4 F Inv Flare".
Would you believe -- that was it??! It's apparently a 14mm x "close as
spit" to MPT. On closer examination, it's not tapered and there's a flat
seat at the end of the threads which apparently mates with another flat
surface inside the valve. It cost me $5.67, but at least I didn't lose a
big bet.
It's now installed, not leaking, and the brakes are bled. Putting the
light out wound up costing me a total of about $50, and 3 hours work, plus
a big brake fluid puddle on the floor. But at least that feature prodded
me to do what I've needed to do for years: degrease and pressure wash the
floor. I'm about to go buy epoxy paint. Tomorrow, when the floor's dry,
I'll finally get around to finishing the floor under the service rack.
And I learned another GMC lesson. :-)
Ken H.
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson [message #309960 is a reply to message #309954] |
Sat, 05 November 2016 13:38  |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
Here's a cross section of the combination valve I have installed in Double Trouble and to be installed in The Blue Streak. Note that
the threads in the port that goes to the rear wheels is 9/16 x 18 which is 1/4" inverted flare. The stainless steel brake lines I
installed in Double Trouble screwed directly into that port, no adapter.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/combination-valve/p59582-combination-valve.html
In this photo you show that you used an easy out to get the brass seat out of the rear port.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/deciphering-the-combination-valve/p5326.html
I'm confused!
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 4:45 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson
Yesterday I undertook the simple, 30 minute job of replacing the GMC's
combination valve. As some of you know, from my 2007 album
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g3510-deciphering-
the-combination-valve.html, I disabled the metering valve function of the
combination valve. I've continued to use that old iron-bodid gadget with
my 6-wheel disc brakes satisfactorily until the last few months. During
brake tinkering, I've managed to turn on the "failed system" warning light
a couple of times. The first time it was a little difficult to reset. The
latest time I've had no luck resetting it. So I decided to get a modern
brass disc/disc valve to replace my antique.
Removing the old valve proved a bit of a challenge because I the line to
the rear brakes requires an adapter fitting between the valve and the rear
tube. That fitting hadn't been removed since the valve was built. I had
to put the valve in a vice and really "get on it" to remove it. The flare
nut wrench I was using even slipped once. A lot of trouble just to get a
1/4" female flare to 1/4" male pipe thread adapter!
Planning to quickly switch all of the lines over, avoiding emptying the
master clyinder reservoirs and the consequent bleeding task, my plan was
slightly disrupted by that fitting problem. But I went ahead and connected
the 3 lines for the front brakes, before the brake fluid quit running; and,
I connected the line from the MC for the rear brakes. But that darned rear
tube WOULD NOT line up -- I simply could NOT get the thread started. So, I
removed the adapter, thinking to put it on the tube loosely, then install
the MPT into the valve. WHAAAT! The female flare end of the adapter was
OVAL!!! Remember that slipped wrench I mentioned? Yep, it essentially
destroyed the adapter. :-(
No big deal, aside from all that brake fluid still dribbling out. I'll
just run to NAPA, 1-1/2 miles away and get I replacement. And so I did.
Guess what -- that MPT would not fit the valve! It was "loose as a
goose". Hmmm--calipers, please. Yep, the old fitting's tread OD is 0.025"
greater than the new 1/4" MPT! So, back to NAPA. Even the "old heads" at
that well stocked, usually reliable store were baffled and had to refund my
$2.47.
Off to O'Reilly's. "Oh, that's just a standard 1/4" MPT." Right. 'Cept
it's not, they finally had to admit. On to Advance Auto, where I was
greeted by an old acquaintance who said "Of course we've got it -- what do
you want to bet?" "$2.47". In the back at the fittings bin, he was just
as shocked as everyone else. "Darn, I wish I'd bet you big bucks", I
said. Then I looked down at the Metric section of the cabinet --
Hmmmm...and pulled the drawer that said "1/4 MPT to 1/4 F Inv Flare".
Would you believe -- that was it??! It's apparently a 14mm x "close as
spit" to MPT. On closer examination, it's not tapered and there's a flat
seat at the end of the threads which apparently mates with another flat
surface inside the valve. It cost me $5.67, but at least I didn't lose a
big bet.
It's now installed, not leaking, and the brakes are bled. Putting the
light out wound up costing me a total of about $50, and 3 hours work, plus
a big brake fluid puddle on the floor. But at least that feature prodded
me to do what I've needed to do for years: degrease and pressure wash the
floor. I'm about to go buy epoxy paint. Tomorrow, when the floor's dry,
I'll finally get around to finishing the floor under the service rack.
And I learned another GMC lesson. :-)
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson [message #309965 is a reply to message #309960] |
Sat, 05 November 2016 15:39 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
Welcome to the confused club!
Here's the part I needed: http://www.dormanproducts.
com/p-28021-490-5361.aspx?origin=keyword
The valve's female thread is 9/16"-18. Different adapters are available to
accept specific male inverted flare nuts -- in our case a 7/16'-24 nut for
1/4" MIF tubing. If the rear brakes were served by 3/16" tubing, the nut
would be 3/8"-24. So, your combination valve either came with the adapter
installed or you're suffering with CRS, like me. Which brings me to the
EZ-out and the seat shown in the photo album. That seat mates with the
"flat" end on the 9/16"-18-to-1/4" MIF fitting to block fluid flow to
defective rear brakes. If I realized that during the '07 exercise, I sure
didn't mention it in the album. Nor did I make any reference to having
removed that 9/16"-18 fitting, which obviously had NOT been in there 40
-years. :-)
So, my daily GMC lesson has been clarified -- they did NOT mix in a 14mm
thread. As I've now verified with my thread gauge & caliper. :-)
Here are a couple of photos if you want to look at it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3XquSIYjDleQ3ZPOWk4b3B2cm8/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3XquSIYjDledFpVRVIxOUs1MWc/view?usp=sharing
Thanks, Oh Pedantic One,
Ken H.
On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Here's a cross section of the combination valve I have installed in Double
> Trouble and to be installed in The Blue Streak. Note that
> the threads in the port that goes to the rear wheels is 9/16 x 18 which is
> 1/4" inverted flare. The stainless steel brake lines I
> installed in Double Trouble screwed directly into that port, no adapter.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/combination-valve/
> p59582-combination-valve.html
>
> In this photo you show that you used an easy out to get the brass seat out
> of the rear port.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/deciphering-the-
> combination-valve/p5326.html
>
> I'm confused!
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson [message #309989 is a reply to message #309988] |
Sat, 05 November 2016 22:13 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
I ordered the two smaller pair of those after you first suggested them.
They're every bit as good as you claim. But if I'd put one of them on the
weak part of that fitting, as I did, the result would have been the same.
Thanks,
Ken H
On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 10:35 PM, Matt Colie wrote:
> Ken,
>
> If you are going mess with more old brake fittings, look up Vice Grip
> locking wrench. These are not cheap, but if you buy the set (~40$) and you
> ever
> regret it, I will buy them from you. I am not worried about running out
> of running out of money.
>
> I lent one of those that I carry to JimK at Mansfield. I bet I made a
> believer out of him.....
>
> (I only wish I had stock on Irwin.)
>
> Matt
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson [message #310082 is a reply to message #309954] |
Tue, 08 November 2016 09:47 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Ken, you just saved me a bunch of grief, since next week's project is to remove the 'no skid' outboard things and the valve, and replace it with my shiny new brass one. I didn't know what the additions were, Chuck Boyd sneered at them so away they go. And I will hustle down to TSC with the new valve in my hot little hands and make sure I have fittings which fit it before I start. I hafta do it next week - this week is Priceville AL for four days of shows. And while Zhookoff hasn't wanted his pressure bleeder back yet, sooner or later he will. (It's boxed up indoors, George!) You've likely saved me a day or two. thanks.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson [message #310092 is a reply to message #310082] |
Tue, 08 November 2016 11:21 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Johnny,
Unless you screw up a fitting carelessly like I did, you should not need
any new fittings. TSC probably won't have that 9/16-18 x 3/8-24 (FIF)
fitting; NAPA or someone else with a Dorman cabinet MIGHT.
Ken H.
On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Ken, you just saved me a bunch of grief, since next week's project is to
> remove the 'no skid' outboard things and the valve, and replace it with my
> shiny new brass one. I didn't know what the additions were, Chuck Boyd
> sneered at them so away they go. And I will hustle down to TSC with the new
> valve in my hot little hands and make sure I have fittings which fit it
> before I start. I hafta do it next week - this week is Priceville AL for
> four
> days of shows. And while Zhookoff hasn't wanted his pressure bleeder back
> yet, sooner or later he will. (It's boxed up indoors, George!) You've
> likely saved me a day or two. thanks.
>
> --johnny
>
> --
> '76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and
> add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
>
> "Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my
> dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson [message #310105 is a reply to message #309954] |
Tue, 08 November 2016 14:46 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I will treat the (40 year old) valve and connections to a bath of boiling water for a few minutes and hope that loosens thing up. I'm reluctant to use the red wrench on brake lines.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson [message #310110 is a reply to message #310082] |
Tue, 08 November 2016 15:04 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
I'm still a bit confused!
I've uploaded a photo of a brass combination valve and as far as I know if you've bought one for a GMC it will have the outlined
fitting in it and as noted in the photo it will have a 1/4 female inverted flare port in it.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p61624-combination-valve-fitting.html
I have installed three of them from various suppliers and all of them were the same.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Bridges via Gmclist
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 2:47 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Johnny Bridges
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson
Ken, you just saved me a bunch of grief, since next week's project is to remove the 'no skid' outboard things and the valve, and
replace it with my shiny new brass one. I didn't know what the additions were, Chuck Boyd sneered at them so away they go. And I
will hustle down to TSC with the new valve in my hot little hands and make sure I have fittings which fit it before I start. I
hafta do it next week - this week is Priceville AL for four days of shows. And while Zhookoff hasn't wanted his pressure bleeder
back yet, sooner or later he will. (It's boxed up indoors, George!) You've likely saved me a day or two. thanks.
--johnny
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson [message #310112 is a reply to message #309954] |
Tue, 08 November 2016 15:36 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
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A trick on brake line fittings. Where they enter a wheel cylinder or
distribution valve. Use a stainless steel wire brush and clean the fitting
as well as the brake line down to shiny metal. Then, spray with your
favorite penetrating solution. Mine is Pentrazen foaming penatrant. Comes
in a spray can. Foams up and clings to whatever you spray it on. $$$$
compared to home brewed stuff, but it works for me. Next step, patience.
Walk away and do something worthwhile. These fittings have been screwed
together and exposed to corrosion for 40 years. Next step, spray some more,
and wait. Overnight minimum. REMEMBER, ONE MORE PULL ON THAT WRENCH WILL
CHANGE AN EASY JOB INTO A BITCH OF A JOB. Time is your ally here. Heat
definitely helps, but remember, brake fluid will burn when exposed to an
open flame, so, keep an extinguisher very handy. More than likely, the
threads will break loose, but the fitting will remain frozen to the brake
line. A quarter turn on the wrench will twist off the brake line, and your
troubles just magnified a hundred fold. WAIT FOR THE PENETRATING COMPOUND
TO WORK.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Nov 8, 2016 1:05 PM, "Rob Mueller" wrote:
G'day,
I'm still a bit confused!
I've uploaded a photo of a brass combination valve and as far as I know if
you've bought one for a GMC it will have the outlined
fitting in it and as noted in the photo it will have a 1/4 female inverted
flare port in it.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-
photos/p61624-combination-valve-fitting.html
I have installed three of them from various suppliers and all of them were
the same.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Johnny
Bridges via Gmclist
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 2:47 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Johnny Bridges
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson
Ken, you just saved me a bunch of grief, since next week's project is to
remove the 'no skid' outboard things and the valve, and
replace it with my shiny new brass one. I didn't know what the additions
were, Chuck Boyd sneered at them so away they go. And I
will hustle down to TSC with the new valve in my hot little hands and make
sure I have fittings which fit it before I start. I
hafta do it next week - this week is Priceville AL for four days of shows.
And while Zhookoff hasn't wanted his pressure bleeder
back yet, sooner or later he will. (It's boxed up indoors, George!)
You've likely saved me a day or two. thanks.
--johnny
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson [message #310114 is a reply to message #310110] |
Tue, 08 November 2016 16:15 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Well, for whatever reason (perhaps the $37.89 I paid for it), the fitting
at the far right of mine is 9/16"-18, requiring the reducer as in this
photo:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3XquSIYjDleV2FhcW82eDlfZHM/view?usp=sharing
Ken H.
On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 4:04 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> G'day,
>
> I'm still a bit confused!
>
> I've uploaded a photo of a brass combination valve and as far as I know if
> you've bought one for a GMC it will have the outlined
> fitting in it and as noted in the photo it will have a 1/4 female inverted
> flare port in it.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-
> photos/p61624-combination-valve-fitting.html
>
> I have installed three of them from various suppliers and all of them were
> the same.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of
> Johnny Bridges via Gmclist
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 2:47 AM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Cc: Johnny Bridges
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson
>
> Ken, you just saved me a bunch of grief, since next week's project is to
> remove the 'no skid' outboard things and the valve, and
> replace it with my shiny new brass one. I didn't know what the additions
> were, Chuck Boyd sneered at them so away they go. And I
> will hustle down to TSC with the new valve in my hot little hands and make
> sure I have fittings which fit it before I start. I
> hafta do it next week - this week is Priceville AL for four days of
> shows. And while Zhookoff hasn't wanted his pressure bleeder
> back yet, sooner or later he will. (It's boxed up indoors, George!)
> You've likely saved me a day or two. thanks.
>
> --johnny
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Fun: Always a New Lesson [message #310217 is a reply to message #310033] |
Thu, 10 November 2016 18:24 |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
Karma: -2
|
Senior Member |
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Rob and Ken,
CRS is part of the reason for all the confusion along with the fact that Ken's coach has had the 1/4" brake line replaced at some point with a generic line. That replacement line uses a nut with 7/16 thread size common for 1/4" tubing. This required the use of a reducer fitting to make the required connection.
I had a look at my factory original valve and line and it uses a special nut with the 9/16-18 thread on a 1/4" flared tube. This special nut is readily available from dorman, but I have never seen them available on pre-flared lines like you find on display at the local auto parts.
Google 9/16-18 brake line nut and you'll find several examples for tubing sizes of 3/16" and larger.
Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza 26'
The EWIP (Eternal Work In Progress)
> On Nov 7, 2016, at 9:44 AM, John Wright wrote:
>
> I got mine from Amazon, they had 3 sizes, also available from the Walmart site.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> or
> http://tinyurl.com/jg3rsr3
>
> These things work.
>
> JR Wright
> Michigan
>
>
>
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