Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Fire Suppression with Onan BF 4.0?
| Fire Suppression with Onan BF 4.0? [message #306099] |
Mon, 29 August 2016 09:04  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Has anybody that uses the APU had a successful installation of a fire suppression system in a 23ft with an Onan BF?
I am trying to decide if I should even try again. I have now blown off the third (and last) bottle for the APU. All three in different places with different mounting. This is getting to be a PITA and be of zero value.
When first taking my coach into the local boat yards, I was required by the yard owners to have a huge insurance coverage. I talked to several companies and their costs were astronomical. One agent said that fire was the big issue and RVs go up all the time. When we talked, I asked if a fixed fire system in the coach where ever fuel is used would make a difference. He got a hold of carriers and wrote a policy based on that and it was affordable. So, I put the system in. It was 2007 or 8. As long as I didn't run the APU long on hot days, it was OK. Then we were at a dry camp venue when it was 90°+ and I wanted to run the A/C. The sudden stop also took out the bridge. The bridge can't be replaced in a 4.0 with the unit installed. The new bridge is higher PIV and has held on trough the subsequent events.
The bottle in the engine bay has been just fine.
So, if you have ever had one in a 23 with 4.0 please let me know what you have done.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Fire Suppression with Onan BF 4.0? [message #306115 is a reply to message #306099] |
Mon, 29 August 2016 11:29  |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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How about a flame sensor or an arc sensor and a solenoid valve on the (remotely placed) AIFF bottle? We used this system in our studios with good success - until the jockette set it off one night inadvertantly. While it was Halon instead of AIFF, the idea's the same. Put the bottle under the bed and the spray head in the genset compartment. Find a olace where the photocell is pretty much in the dark but will be around the fmales if/when the thing gets lit. Temperature rise won't bother it. I'd probably include a cutoff switch on the genset door as well.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fire Suppression with Onan BF 4.0? [message #306654 is a reply to message #306652] |
Wed, 07 September 2016 07:52 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Mark,
Thanks, I did look at that one, but as they cannot give a specific deploy temperature I disqualified.
(Un)Fortunately, the depression has destroyed the boat work where in I made my income. As I no longer have to take the coach into boatyards, the need no longer exists. (I also don't the 1E6@ insurance coverage that was as bad as the taxes I paid. This is also why the coach is now free to be going places in the spring and fall.
Yes, there are other systems, but the simple single bottle with temperature head seems to be a total bust.
Matt
mark grady wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 07:09I'll bump an old thread with this: http://jogrusa.com/collections/blazecut
I have them in my VW Vanagon and Thing, even though all my fuel lines have
been replaced. Installation is design it yourself, but simple enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kswau1mGBE8
Mark Grady
N.IN
'78 Kingsley
On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> How about a flame sensor or an arc sensor and a solenoid valve on the
> (remotely placed) AIFF bottle? We used this system in our studios with good
> success - until the jockette set it off one night inadvertantly. While it
> was Halon instead of AIFF, the idea's the same. Put the bottle under the
> bed and the spray head in the genset compartment. Find a olace where the
> photocell is pretty much in the dark but will be around the fmales if/when
> the thing gets lit. Temperature rise won't bother it. I'd probably
> include a cutoff switch on the genset door as well.
>
> --johnny
>
> --
> '76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and
> add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
>
> "Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my
> dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon
>
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Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Fire Suppression with Onan BF 4.0? [message #306658 is a reply to message #306099] |
Wed, 07 September 2016 08:59 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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That is an interesting system. I looked at all of the models and the only difference is the length of the hose. They all have 1.1 pounds of a Halon substitute FE-36 in the the bottle. They claim a deployment temperature of 248 F. degrees.
What is interesting is the method of deployment. You run a hose wherever you want coverage and the thing deploys when the hose melts. As first I thought that it was rather hokey, but the more I think about it and look at it, the more I like the idea.
With this system, you do not have to worry about exact placement of the sprinkler head when you install it. Just install it and run the hose over the areas that you wish to cover. It will trip in the spot that gets the hottest first.
My dislike is that it is halon (actually FE-36) and I worry that it will not put out a fire on a running engine with all if the air blowing through it. If I could get that hose and install it on an AR-AFFF system I would love it. If I were to go with a halon system, like that I would like to see an option for larger bottles.
Matt, what is the deployment temperature on the bottles that tripped in your Onan installation? It looks like you need something slightly higher than what you had.
This one has a reasonable price point. I assume that it is a throw away system with no replacement hoses or recharge of the bottle available.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Fire Suppression with Onan BF 4.0? [message #306680 is a reply to message #306658] |
Wed, 07 September 2016 19:41 |
Jim Galbavy
Messages: 1443
Registered: August 2007
Karma: 7
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Ken, That system will work for gas, but I'm not sure it would work
with foam. It would pee it in a stream.
Matt's first two Fire Fight systems had 155 degree F fuses because he said they
would be used behind the refer. The heads for the generator compartments
are fused for ambient temperatures of 286 deg.F. I don't know where or how he
mounted this last one, but I have had these installed in both locations when Ralph
was still alive and they are still mounted and active to this day.
m2cw.
jim galbavy
'73 x-CL ANNIE
Lake Mary, FL
[Updated on: Wed, 07 September 2016 19:42] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fire Suppression with Onan BF 4.0? [message #306684 is a reply to message #306680] |
Wed, 07 September 2016 21:13 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Jim Galbavy wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 20:41Ken, That system will work for gas, but I'm not sure it would work with foam. It would pee it in a stream.
Matt's first two Fire Fight systems had 155 degree F fuses because he said they would be used behind the refer. The heads for the generator compartments are fused for ambient temperatures of 286 deg.F. I don't know where or how he mounted this last one, but I have had these installed in both locations when Ralph was still alive and they are still mounted and active to this day.
m2cw.
jim galbavy
'73 x-CL ANNIE
Lake Mary, FL
Jim,
There is little I hate more than being mis-quoted. You don't know me, so I will give you a pass on this one......
I don't have and have never had a absorption (gas fired) refrigeration system.
The first was ordered as a SS-25 specifically for the APU application. (As required by my insurance carrier.) It came with parts for that installation and was installed as directed. (I can show you the holes.) The second SS-25 (at my cost) was install per agreement with the supplier in the top of the battery compartment as it exists in a 73-23-TZE. The third was a bottle I got from MAC (comp) and was stood in the battery compartment. It deployed (as we used to say in OE reports that were possibly called for disposition) "without evidence of any "thermal incident".
All three had discharge heads in the 170°F region. Now I have gotten a reply from someone at FireFighter that said the head was wrong.
Well, golly gee, After Three Failures, That just could be the case.......
I am giving up at this point. I no longer have need then for the insurance carrier. (BHO saw to that.) But I was hoping that someone could shed some light based on real experience. While this is a device I would like to have, if none work, WHY BOTHER.
Thank You
Matt - Waiting in Erie for ships to arrive.
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Fire Suppression with Onan BF 4.0? [message #306695 is a reply to message #306680] |
Thu, 08 September 2016 01:17 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Jim Galbavy wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 19:41Ken, That system will work for gas, but I'm not sure it would work
with foam. It would pee it in a stream.
Matt's first two Fire Fight systems had 155 degree F fuses because he said they
would be used behind the refer. The heads for the generator compartments
are fused for ambient temperatures of 286 deg.F. I don't know where or how he
mounted this last one, but I have had these installed in both locations when Ralph
was still alive and they are still mounted and active to this day.
m2cw.
jim galbavy
'73 x-CL ANNIE
Lake Mary, FL
That is what I thought might be happening. 155 F. is definitely too low for a fuse sitting next to or near an engine running at around 200 degrees. The 286 F one might do the trick and solve his problem.
You have confirmed my thoughts on the melting hose arrangement and foam. I believe the foam stuff would need more of a nozzle at the discharge point to assure generation of the foam rather than a liquid.
The one thing that bothered me with their video was in the demonstration the engine was not running with that big VW engine cooling fan mixing up the air and blowing the Halon substitute away.
I looked thoroughly at the website of that company and could not find anything other than general marketing hype. They implied that they also have a foam solution, but no specific products were listed. I only looked at their US English web site.
They appear to be a company out of Solvenia with one US office in Oregon, WI.
Oh well, It looked like a neat idea.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fire Suppression with Onan BF 4.0? [message #306821 is a reply to message #306695] |
Fri, 09 September 2016 16:05 |
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mark grady
Messages: 70
Registered: November 2015
Location: northern Indiana
Karma: 0
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Member |
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These are made in Slovenia, but the quality looks to be good. Josh at JOGR
is the only US source that I know about. He also has an Amazon store.
Installation is self guided, and there are with lots of ideas and opinions.
Opinions are like farts - you don't mind your own, but those of other
people are unbearable.
There are undoubtedly engineered solutions, but a VW bus buddy of mine had
his '70 Westy saved with a blaze cut. My Vanagon uses a lot of fuel hoses
(all renewed, with Oetiker crimp clamps.) It's a 35 PSI system. Fuel
pressure regulators are also weak points.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=488350
I would have went with an AR-AFFF system if I could have found one (and
that doesn't freeze.) But in the end, I felt that doing something was
better than doing nothing. I concluded that I was just not looking in the
right place for an AR-AFFF bottle and head solution.
Mark
N-IN
'78 Kingsley
On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 2:17 AM, Ken Burton wrote:
> Jim Galbavy wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 19:41
>> Ken, That system will work for gas, but I'm not sure it would work
>> with foam. It would pee it in a stream.
>>
>> Matt's first two Fire Fight systems had 155 degree F fuses because he
> said they
>> would be used behind the refer. The heads for the generator compartments
>> are fused for ambient temperatures of 286 deg.F. I don't know where or
> how he
>> mounted this last one, but I have had these installed in both locations
> when Ralph
>> was still alive and they are still mounted and active to this day.
>>
>> m2cw.
>>
>> jim galbavy
>> '73 x-CL ANNIE
>> Lake Mary, FL
>
> That is what I thought might be happening. 155 F. is definitely too low
> for a fuse sitting next to or near an engine running at around 200 degrees.
> The 286 F one might do the trick and solve his problem.
>
> You have confirmed my thoughts on the melting hose arrangement and foam.
> I believe the foam stuff would need more of a nozzle at the discharge point
> to assure generation of the foam rather than a liquid.
>
> The one thing that bothered me with their video was in the demonstration
> the engine was not running with that big VW engine cooling fan mixing up the
> air and blowing the Halon substitute away.
>
> I looked thoroughly at the website of that company and could not find
> anything other than general marketing hype. They implied that they also
> have a
> foam solution, but no specific products were listed. I only looked at
> their US English web site.
>
> They appear to be a company out of Solvenia with one US office in Oregon,
> WI.
>
> Oh well, It looked like a neat idea.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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'77 + 78 Kingsley
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fire Suppression with Onan BF 4.0? [message #306841 is a reply to message #306821] |
Sat, 10 September 2016 00:14 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Jim G,
Is that foam like our FireFight one in that it is harmless to electrical?
I have had to charge big money to repair a fire that the standard
extinguisher was used and caused damage to electrical connections.
On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 2:05 PM, mark grady wrote:
> These are made in Slovenia, but the quality looks to be good. Josh at JOGR
> is the only US source that I know about. He also has an Amazon store.
>
> Installation is self guided, and there are with lots of ideas and opinions.
> Opinions are like farts - you don't mind your own, but those of other
> people are unbearable.
>
> There are undoubtedly engineered solutions, but a VW bus buddy of mine had
> his '70 Westy saved with a blaze cut. My Vanagon uses a lot of fuel hoses
> (all renewed, with Oetiker crimp clamps.) It's a 35 PSI system. Fuel
> pressure regulators are also weak points.
>
> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=488350
>
> I would have went with an AR-AFFF system if I could have found one (and
> that doesn't freeze.) But in the end, I felt that doing something was
> better than doing nothing. I concluded that I was just not looking in the
> right place for an AR-AFFF bottle and head solution.
>
> Mark
>
> N-IN
> '78 Kingsley
>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 2:17 AM, Ken Burton wrote:
>
>> Jim Galbavy wrote on Wed, 07 September 2016 19:41
>>> Ken, That system will work for gas, but I'm not sure it would work
>>> with foam. It would pee it in a stream.
>>>
>>> Matt's first two Fire Fight systems had 155 degree F fuses because he
>> said they
>>> would be used behind the refer. The heads for the generator
> compartments
>>> are fused for ambient temperatures of 286 deg.F. I don't know where or
>> how he
>>> mounted this last one, but I have had these installed in both locations
>> when Ralph
>>> was still alive and they are still mounted and active to this day.
>>>
>>> m2cw.
>>>
>>> jim galbavy
>>> '73 x-CL ANNIE
>>> Lake Mary, FL
>>
>> That is what I thought might be happening. 155 F. is definitely too low
>> for a fuse sitting next to or near an engine running at around 200
> degrees.
>> The 286 F one might do the trick and solve his problem.
>>
>> You have confirmed my thoughts on the melting hose arrangement and foam.
>> I believe the foam stuff would need more of a nozzle at the discharge
> point
>> to assure generation of the foam rather than a liquid.
>>
>> The one thing that bothered me with their video was in the demonstration
>> the engine was not running with that big VW engine cooling fan mixing up
> the
>> air and blowing the Halon substitute away.
>>
>> I looked thoroughly at the website of that company and could not find
>> anything other than general marketing hype. They implied that they also
>> have a
>> foam solution, but no specific products were listed. I only looked at
>> their US English web site.
>>
>> They appear to be a company out of Solvenia with one US office in Oregon,
>> WI.
>>
>> Oh well, It looked like a neat idea.
>> --
>> Ken Burton - N9KB
>> 76 Palm Beach
>> Hebron, Indiana
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fire Suppression with Onan BF 4.0? [message #306842 is a reply to message #306821] |
Sat, 10 September 2016 00:57 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Mark,
I do not disagree with anything that you said.
After having to fight, and winning, a motorhome fire in my own coach I started looking for the best fire suppression system for a GMC.
In a prior life I use to design and sell fire suppression systems for large computer rooms and telephone switch rooms. In most cases we used Halon.
In fighting my gasoline fed fire I used every kind of fire extinguisher I could find quickly. So I have some personal experience using the various types of extinguishers in real life. I and several other GMCers researched what other users (mostly Aviation, Industrial, and local fire departments) were using. I got to sit in and watch fire fighter training. I also researched what the FAA requires for aircraft, and what the local fire departments use for on road vehicle fires. One of the participating investigators is a GMC owner and full time fighter.
Our conclusions after all of that is:
1. AFFF will be the most effective in a GMC fire using 100% real gasoline (E-0 fuel)
2. AR-AFFF will be the most effective option in a GMC fire using 90% gasoline/10% ethanol (E-10) or E-15.
3. Halon is effective in closed environments with only minor air movement. It also works well in basements with minimal air circulation because halon is heaver than air and settles to the bottom of the area covered. Halon (and it's substitutes like FE-36 etc.) would be effective in a GMC refrigerator fire. I have my doubts on whether it will work in a running Onan with all of that air cooling air being pumped though the Onan area. With Halon the air needs to remain above 5% halon content to prevent re-ignition until the fire source cools down.
So our conclusion was that AR-AFFF is a better solution in the generator area.
The third area we worry about is the main engine area. In a GMC the entire bottom of the engine, fuel lines, oil lines, trans lines, and tanks are wide open to any air flow. This means that a running engine or just plain gravity will tend to allow the Halon to blow away.
So our conclusion was to never use Halon on a GMC engine fire unless nothing else is available.
On mine I tried Dry Powder 3 times, Halon once, and CO2 with water in that order. All of these attempts were made with the engine NOT running. The combination of CO2 to cutoff the oxygen and water to cool down the area finally put the fire out for good. Dry Powder kept re-igniting and Halon did nothing at all.
I did not know about or have any AR-AFFF or AFFF at the time.
After observing fire fighter training and having the opportunity to try it, my opinion is AR-AFFF the best solution for an engine or gasoline fire in a GMC.
The main downside for AR-AFFF and AFFF is the freezing problem. I, like you, have been looking for some supplier to give us a permanently installed automatic deploy system for the engine and Onan areas that will not freeze in the winter.
I recently discovered that Kidde was supplying their AFFF hand held extinguishers with a freezing point of +14F (-10C). Their solution can not go below that point with the solution components they are using. While that is better than 32 F., it is not a real solution for us.
There are several makers of of AR-AFFF that will not freeze at well below 0 F. No company / vendor has picked up those products and bottled it for our parked GMC in winter time problem. So we are left with removing the extinguisher and it's plumbing in the winter time. I think a below 0 F. solution would have a market for some company that is interested in giving us what we want.
I once worked in marketing. When I went to engineering with a product enhancement / capability change that we needed to be competitive or to stay ahead of the competition, I was told, "Do not sell what the client is asking for. Sell what we have available". I feel that is what we have here.
I'm off of the soap box.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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