Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story
| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306073] |
Sun, 28 August 2016 17:43  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Nice analysis and writeup, Jim. While I no longer fool with Onans, I agree
with your evaluation of the problem. I suspect it is equally applicable to
the Onan boards. In fact, I think Johnny Bridges is adding the larger
dropping resistor already.
Y'All are going to keep on until replacing the Onan no longer makes sense!
(Wonder if my son will let me have back the home emergency 4kW he's had
for about 8 years?)
Ken H.
On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 6:19 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
> I’ve had two Dinosaur boards fail in the exact same fashion over the past
> couple of years; each board failed after a couple tens of hours of runtime
> and they failed in the exact same fashion. A search of GMCnet led to Ken
> Burton’s posting regarding some modifications that Dinosaur had made - and
> then the trail led to George Zhookoff who had similar problems and went
> through a couple iterations with Dinosaur’s engineering team to get it
> fixed. My fix and how I arrived at it is described below.
>
> Failure description: Onan would crank and try to start but would
> immediately fall over before reaching governed speed. Running a jumper from
> battery + to coil + allowed the engine to start and run perfectly.
>
> Unit specifics: Onan is connected to the house battery for starting and
> has the charger voltage regulator disconnected. Flywheel alternator is used
> only for providing a signal to the control board to confirm a successful
> start. Flywheel alternator voltage at governed speed = 30 VAC measured.
>
> Control board circuit description: flywheel alternator voltage of 30VAC is
> half-wave rectified and fed through a series dropping resistor (~50 ohms)
> to relay K2, a 12VDC relay with coil resistance 270 ohms. Once the engine
> reaches around 700 RPM the voltage has built up to the point where K2’s
> coil pulls in. This has the effect of de-energizing the starter and
> latching +12V to the fuel pump and ignition system so that the engine will
> continue to run.
>
> My analysis of the failure: over-voltage at the coil of relay K2 caused
> excessive heating of the coil windings. Continued heating results in a
> cascading failure where the insulation on the coil windings starts to melt
> and the windings start shorting together- which reduces the resistance of
> the coil and then produces even more heating. Eventually the resistance
> through the coil is so low - and the current in the circuit is so high -
> that the series dropping resistor fails. On my two failed boards the coil
> resistance was down to around 15 Ohms - a long way away from the 270 that
> it should have been - and the series dropping resistor was smoked. Visual
> inspection of the relay coils confirmed the melted insulation.
>
> I theorize that the flywheel alternator voltage is higher than it would
> have been on the original Onan design which had the battery charger in
> place - and thus the control board is now seeing a higher voltage than it
> was designed for. Approximately 24V delivered across the 270 ohm coil of
> the original 12V relay would produce a power dissipation in the coil of
> just over 2 Watts. The datasheet for the relay describes an operating power
> of around 0.5W. As the coil windings start to short together the resistance
> will decrease and the power dissipated as heat will increase.
>
> I wasn’t quite happy with the repairs and modifications that I had seen so
> I set out to try and come up with a mod of my own that would/should
> hopefully be bulletproof. After experimenting with different relays and
> dropping resistors I arrived at a 200 Ohm dropping resistor and a drop-in
> replacement 24V relay, P/N JW2SN-DC24V ($4 each at Mouser). With this
> arrangement the voltage at the relay coil is about 23.5V and I should think
> the relay will obviously live much longer than the 12V piece that had been
> in that spot on the original Dino board. Note that a 150 Ohm resistor will
> work in place of the 200 Ohm but it seemed to me that this caused the
> starter to drop out a little too soon. There is a critical relationship
> between the dropping resistor’s value and the pull-in voltage of the relay.
>
> I put a few pictures at: http://www.jcmco.com/gallery/album30
>
> Naturally I cannot guarantee that this fix will be helpful for anyone
> else’s Onan but I thought I’d write it up for the GMCnet nonetheless.
>
> —Jim
>
> Jim Miller
> 1977 Eleganza
> 1977 Royale
> Hamilton, OH
>
>
>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306074 is a reply to message #306073] |
Sun, 28 August 2016 18:27  |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
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We are taking a different approach
We are replacing the alternator with a transformer
http://gmc49ers.blogspot.com/2015/09/onan-gmc-propane-conversion.html
On Sunday, August 28, 2016, Ken Henderson wrote:
> Nice analysis and writeup, Jim. While I no longer fool with Onans, I agree
> with your evaluation of the problem. I suspect it is equally applicable to
> the Onan boards. In fact, I think Johnny Bridges is adding the larger
> dropping resistor already.
>
> Y'All are going to keep on until replacing the Onan no longer makes sense!
> (Wonder if my son will let me have back the home emergency 4kW he's had
> for about 8 years?)
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 6:19 PM, Jim Miller > wrote:
>
>> I’ve had two Dinosaur boards fail in the exact same fashion over the past
>> couple of years; each board failed after a couple tens of hours of
> runtime
>> and they failed in the exact same fashion. A search of GMCnet led to Ken
>> Burton’s posting regarding some modifications that Dinosaur had made -
> and
>> then the trail led to George Zhookoff who had similar problems and went
>> through a couple iterations with Dinosaur’s engineering team to get it
>> fixed. My fix and how I arrived at it is described below.
>>
>> Failure description: Onan would crank and try to start but would
>> immediately fall over before reaching governed speed. Running a jumper
> from
>> battery + to coil + allowed the engine to start and run perfectly.
>>
>> Unit specifics: Onan is connected to the house battery for starting and
>> has the charger voltage regulator disconnected. Flywheel alternator is
> used
>> only for providing a signal to the control board to confirm a successful
>> start. Flywheel alternator voltage at governed speed = 30 VAC measured.
>>
>> Control board circuit description: flywheel alternator voltage of 30VAC
> is
>> half-wave rectified and fed through a series dropping resistor (~50 ohms)
>> to relay K2, a 12VDC relay with coil resistance 270 ohms. Once the engine
>> reaches around 700 RPM the voltage has built up to the point where K2’s
>> coil pulls in. This has the effect of de-energizing the starter and
>> latching +12V to the fuel pump and ignition system so that the engine
> will
>> continue to run.
>>
>> My analysis of the failure: over-voltage at the coil of relay K2 caused
>> excessive heating of the coil windings. Continued heating results in a
>> cascading failure where the insulation on the coil windings starts to
> melt
>> and the windings start shorting together- which reduces the resistance of
>> the coil and then produces even more heating. Eventually the resistance
>> through the coil is so low - and the current in the circuit is so high -
>> that the series dropping resistor fails. On my two failed boards the
> coil
>> resistance was down to around 15 Ohms - a long way away from the 270 that
>> it should have been - and the series dropping resistor was smoked. Visual
>> inspection of the relay coils confirmed the melted insulation.
>>
>> I theorize that the flywheel alternator voltage is higher than it would
>> have been on the original Onan design which had the battery charger in
>> place - and thus the control board is now seeing a higher voltage than it
>> was designed for. Approximately 24V delivered across the 270 ohm coil of
>> the original 12V relay would produce a power dissipation in the coil of
>> just over 2 Watts. The datasheet for the relay describes an operating
> power
>> of around 0.5W. As the coil windings start to short together the
> resistance
>> will decrease and the power dissipated as heat will increase.
>>
>> I wasn’t quite happy with the repairs and modifications that I had seen
> so
>> I set out to try and come up with a mod of my own that would/should
>> hopefully be bulletproof. After experimenting with different relays and
>> dropping resistors I arrived at a 200 Ohm dropping resistor and a drop-in
>> replacement 24V relay, P/N JW2SN-DC24V ($4 each at Mouser). With this
>> arrangement the voltage at the relay coil is about 23.5V and I should
> think
>> the relay will obviously live much longer than the 12V piece that had
> been
>> in that spot on the original Dino board. Note that a 150 Ohm resistor
> will
>> work in place of the 200 Ohm but it seemed to me that this caused the
>> starter to drop out a little too soon. There is a critical relationship
>> between the dropping resistor’s value and the pull-in voltage of the
> relay.
>>
>> I put a few pictures at: http://www.jcmco.com/gallery/album30
>>
>> Naturally I cannot guarantee that this fix will be helpful for anyone
>> else’s Onan but I thought I’d write it up for the GMCnet nonetheless.
>>
>> —Jim
>>
>> Jim Miller
>> 1977 Eleganza
>> 1977 Royale
>> Hamilton, OH
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
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--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306075 is a reply to message #306074] |
Sun, 28 August 2016 18:44 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
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On Aug 28, 2016, at 7:27 PM, gene Fisher wrote:
> We are taking a different approach We are replacing the alternator with a transformer
There are a myriad of different ways to go about it - many of which I considered. In my case the design goal was straightforward: solve the problem by: 1) using the existing Dino board, 2) only change the minimum number of components and 3) make no printed circuit board changes.
—Jim
Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306077 is a reply to message #306075] |
Sun, 28 August 2016 18:59 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Gene's approach works well. I used it on one Onan. And I use it, with my
own control circuit, on the TroyBilt generator I now run. It's just a
"wall wart", plugged into the 120vac output of the generator, driving a
"master relay". But then, I don't try to do anything fancy like
controlling the starter -- I HAVE to release the switch, and I CAN engage
it with a running engine. I really don't consider those shortcomings since
I live with them every time I start my cars, truck, or GMC -- and the
generator makes a LOT more noise than any of them! :-)
Ken H.
On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
> On Aug 28, 2016, at 7:27 PM, gene Fisher wrote:
>
>> We are taking a different approach We are replacing the alternator with
> a transformer
>
> There are a myriad of different ways to go about it - many of which I
> considered. In my case the design goal was straightforward: solve the
> problem by: 1) using the existing Dino board, 2) only change the minimum
> number of components and 3) make no printed circuit board changes.
>
> —Jim
>
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306078 is a reply to message #306077] |
Sun, 28 August 2016 19:12 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
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On Aug 28, 2016, at 7:59 PM, Ken Henderson wrote:
> But then, I don't try to do anything fancy like controlling the starter -- I HAVE to release the switch, and I CAN engage it with a running engine.
Hi Ken,
When I first started working with the Onan control boards I asked myself “why go to all that complexity” to control such a simple engine? The conclusion I came to was based on the two points you mentioned. The Onan control board is designed to prevent damage to the unit caused by someone sitting on the start switch for too long - or by hitting the start switch while it is already running. I can’t think of any other reason for it!
—Jim
Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306079 is a reply to message #306078] |
Sun, 28 August 2016 19:21 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Military spec.
Jim Hupy
On Aug 28, 2016 5:13 PM, "Jim Miller" wrote:
> On Aug 28, 2016, at 7:59 PM, Ken Henderson wrote:
>
>> But then, I don't try to do anything fancy like controlling the starter
> -- I HAVE to release the switch, and I CAN engage it with a running engine.
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> When I first started working with the Onan control boards I asked myself
> “why go to all that complexity” to control such a simple engine? The
> conclusion I came to was based on the two points you mentioned. The Onan
> control board is designed to prevent damage to the unit caused by someone
> sitting on the start switch for too long - or by hitting the start switch
> while it is already running. I can’t think of any other reason for it!
>
> —Jim
>
> Jim Miller
> 1977 Eleganza
> 1977 Royale
> Hamilton, OH
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306081 is a reply to message #306078] |
Sun, 28 August 2016 19:53 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Yeah, they must have expected mile long control cables! :-)
Ken H.
On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
> On Aug 28, 2016, at 7:59 PM, Ken Henderson wrote:
>
>> But then, I don't try to do anything fancy like controlling the starter
> -- I HAVE to release the switch, and I CAN engage it with a running engine.
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> When I first started working with the Onan control boards I asked myself
> “why go to all that complexity” to control such a simple engine? The
> conclusion I came to was based on the two points you mentioned. The Onan
> control board is designed to prevent damage to the unit caused by someone
> sitting on the start switch for too long - or by hitting the start switch
> while it is already running. I can’t think of any other reason for it!
>
> —Jim
>
>
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Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306088 is a reply to message #306078] |
Sun, 28 August 2016 21:39 |
 |
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Jim Miller wrote on Sun, 28 August 2016 20:12On Aug 28, 2016, at 7:59 PM, Ken Henderson wrote:
> But then, I don't try to do anything fancy like controlling the starter -- I HAVE to release the switch, and I CAN engage it with a running engine.
Hi Ken,
When I first started working with the Onan control boards I asked myself "why go to all that complexity" to control such a simple engine? The conclusion I came to was based on the two points you mentioned. The Onan control board is designed to prevent damage to the unit caused by someone sitting on the start switch for too long - or by hitting the start switch while it is already running. I can't think of any other reason for it!
--Jim
As per usual, you are both very observant and correct.
BUT - unlike the general population, you and most successful GMC owners are capable of firing synapses in proper order.
I happen to know why they did this way.
They have to accommodate the people with only average intelligence and nominal understanding.
So, they have to have the starter cut-off and lock out because some people don't recognize that unit has started or is running. I have also seen Onan installations where the engine cannot be heard. (Be nice, wouldn't it?)
They also needed the LOP switch feature. Some people just don't do the required checks.
"Matt, My generator starts and shuts right down." Matt goes and pulls out a dry dipstick.
"When did the generator last get serviced?" Matt hollered up to the owner. Rustle, rustle, muted conversation.
"It was before we went to North Channel." Matt brain grinds out that this was at least three years ago......
If you think this is a joke, go to a marina full of power boats or and FMCA rally. These people are out there.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306089 is a reply to message #306086] |
Sun, 28 August 2016 21:35 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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That might be a good place to put an LED.
Ken H.
On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 9:59 PM, Bruce Hislop wrote:
> Jim,
> Your cause of failure and fix makes total sense to me. I'll be checking
> the relay voltage on my Onan board and correct it before it fails.
>
> I can see an issue with the transformer approach. You could have an issue
> with the generator output voltage, yet waste alot of time thinking you have
> a engine problem because the relay never pulls in.
> --
>
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Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306090 is a reply to message #306086] |
Sun, 28 August 2016 21:40 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
Karma: 10
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On Aug 28, 2016, at 9:59 PM, Bruce Hislop wrote:
> Your cause of failure and fix makes total sense to me. I'll be checking the relay voltage on my Onan board and correct it before it fails.
Hi Bruce,
You can measure the flywheel alternator output between control board terminals 8 and 11. Mine was 30 VAC. Keep in mind that I had only two Dino board specimens to work with - which is an very small sample set. There may be other board revisions out there that deal with the higher voltage just fine and I simply have not encountered them yet. I would recommend NOT implementing my mod unless you had reason to suspect your board had problems. In my case the K2 relay had swollen from the internal heat and the 50 ohm resistor at the bottom of the board was obviously scorched so these may be useful indications of a problem.
> I can see an issue with the transformer approach. You could have an issue with the generator output voltage, yet waste alot of time thinking you have a engine problem because the relay never pulls in.
That is absolutely correct, the transformer approach puts more points of failure in place - and increases the probability of an incorrect indication on which the control system will base its decisions. Perhaps the most likely example of this would be if the genset sits for a while and the remanent magnetic field in the stator naturally diminishes to the point where it cannot begin the self-excitation process. If that happens then the transformer-based solution would never deliver a positive confirmation to the control system that the engine had achieved self-sustain speed - even though in actuality it had. Less likely situations are field assembly failure, bridge rectifier failure and reactor/thyrector failure which would produce identical lies. The Three Mile Island accident is a good example of a control system sensors indicating one thing while reality was completely different and this simple design flaw on a single valve ended up costing the plant owner hundreds of millions of $$ when the power plant was destroyed after only a few months of revenue operation.
In the Onan’s case the control board only uses this information to essentially pull the human’s hand off the starter button - so incorrect indications are not such a big deal.
—Jim
Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306108 is a reply to message #306073] |
Mon, 29 August 2016 11:13 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Fixing the Onan board certainly isn't an economic solution, but it's kind of fun, and keeps the sets original as well as letting me exercise some old skills. I fix them in my coach where I can set the A/C to please me instead of sweating at HER settings in the house.
I've currently got one the PO two back put a 20 amp fuse in. When the coil wire shorted to the block, it removed a couple of runs and the K3 armature departed in a flash of metallic smoke. The 5 Amp is there for a reason. Anyhow, K3 replacements are currently made of Unobtanium alloy. I might get one from Jimmy The K, but he can't sell it for less than Onan gets from him for it which is probably up there.
However, my friends the heathen Chinee list many many relays for very little money. I found a little IC size low current one rated an Amp for the contacts and a 12 volt one rated 10 (Chinese) Amps on the contacts. I'm gonna cascade them and see if that doesn't work. Cost me something like 13 bux for ten of each delivered, and diodes to go across the switched coil were 4 cents apiece when I bought them. The two together are appreciably smaller than a stock K3, if they work properly I'll epoxy them together and to the circuit board. Keep watching this space....
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306159 is a reply to message #306073] |
Tue, 30 August 2016 13:04 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Vi-OLA!!! Or something. I fitted two relays to the board, it fires mine up and runs it and stops it. I ran it half an hour and started/stopped half a dozen times. And boxed the board to send home to Kale Carter. Total cost was less than the small flatrate box which is not a lot. I have relays to do ten more of them if need be.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306181 is a reply to message #306179] |
Tue, 30 August 2016 23:13 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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Senior Member |
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USAussie wrote on Tue, 30 August 2016 21:59Mark,
Obviously you were not paying attention in French class! Naughty boy!
I agree a VIOLA is a stringed musical instrument.
However, we're discussing the French word VOILA.
Please note that the "I" and "O" are reversed; VIOLA vs. VOILA.
I have seen WAH LAH (or permutations thereof) used many times and in my opinion it's not meant to be humorous; it's because the user
doesn't know any better.
I also campaign the misuse of the word "mute" as noted below:
"It was a mute point."
The correct word is "moot."
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426 I had a day of French in high school. It was the first day and all we covered was "no". Nobody could put enough nasal into it to satisfy the teacher. I dropped the class and took typing instead.
I am pretty sure Johnny was almost certainly joking, or maybe just has fat fingers.
At least when I type or say "viola" for "voila" it is in humor, not ignorance. And now that I know it annoys you, I will be sure to get it wrong for that reason as well.
You probably need to let it go. There their and they're get mixed up, and "would of" instead of "would have". "Till" instead of "'til" (till means cultivate, 'til is the contraction of until). Affect vz effect. I could go on. "I've not" or "I'd not" always get me in the back of the neck for some reason, although they are technically correct. I say "I haven't" or I wouldn't". I guess somewhere in my education someone made it clear that when there is a "not" in the phrase, that'd be were the contraction belongs. It wouldn't be correct to contract the "would" or the "have" if it is followed by "not".
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306182 is a reply to message #306181] |
Tue, 30 August 2016 23:28 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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You annoy me? THAT'S a LAUGH!
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of A.
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 2:13 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story
USAussie wrote on Tue, 30 August 2016 21:59
> Mark,
> Obviously you were not paying attention in French class! Naughty boy!
>
> I agree a VIOLA is a stringed musical instrument.
>
> However, we're discussing the French word VOILA.
>
> Please note that the "I" and "O" are reversed; VIOLA vs. VOILA.
>
> I have seen WAH LAH (or permutations thereof) used many times and in my opinion it's not meant to be humorous; it's because the
user
> doesn't know any better.
>
> I also campaign the misuse of the word "mute" as noted below:
>
> "It was a mute point."
>
> The correct word is "moot."
>
> :)
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> USAussie - Downunder
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
I had a day of French in high school. It was the first day and all we covered was "no". Nobody could put enough nasal into it to
satisfy the teacher.
I dropped the class and took typing instead.
I am pretty sure Johnny was almost certainly joking, or maybe just has fat fingers.
At least when I type or say "viola" for "voila" it is in humor, not ignorance. And now that I know it annoys you, I will be sure to
get it wrong for
that reason as well.
You probably need to let it go. There their and they're get mixed up, and "would of" instead of "would have". "Till" instead of
"'til" (till means
cultivate, 'til is the contraction of until). Affect vz effect. I could go on. "I've not" or "I'd not" always get me in the back of
the neck for some
reason, although they are technically correct. I say "I haven't" or I wouldn't". I guess somewhere in my education someone made it
clear that when
there is a "not" in the phrase, that'd be were the contraction belongs. It wouldn't be correct to contract the "would" or the "have"
if it is followed
by "not".
--
73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
Upper Alabama
"Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Dino board problem and fix - my story [message #306195 is a reply to message #306073] |
Wed, 31 August 2016 08:11 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Hay-sus! I post a grin and it turns into a minor firefight. I give you this thought though - There was a guy who decided to meddle in the award of a metal medal to a photographer for his mettle in using a metol based developer in the darkroom. (Metol may be trademarked, I dunno)
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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