Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Help with electrical problem
| Help with electrical problem [message #304201] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 08:31  |
Bob S.
Messages: 143
Registered: October 2012
Location: Rapid City, SD
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Hi All, I need a little guidance as to where to start looking for an electrical gremlin. On Friday as I was getting ready for a weekend trip I started the Onan, let it warm up and then turned on the roof A/C. Everything worked fine so I left the coach to load a few more things and when I came back I had no electrical power (110 volt) at all. I checked all the breakers and the Onan, which was still running fine, and could fine nothing obvious. We headed out with just the dash air running and got to our campsite fine. When I went to plug into shore power, it immediately tripped a 20 amp GFI repeatedly, (no 30 amp available) with almost nothing on in the coach. I then found another 20 amp GFI and tried that with same result. Finally I was able to find a 30 amp hook up and was surprised to find that everything worked fine. When I returned home I tried my brand new 20 amp GFI and it did exactly the same thing. Once again I plugged into my 30 amp and everything is working fine. I tried my generator again and still no power to any 110 volt in the coach. Questions are; where should I start looking and do I have a separate problem with the generator and shore power, or is the same gremlin causing both issues? Any and all help or suggestions are greatly appreciated as I am incredibly challenged when it comes to electricity.
I should mention that I have a 78 Royale, rear bath, and it has one breaker box in the closet that I believe controls the rear air and another breaker box that in under the passenger side rear couch/bed the controls power from shore or Generator.
Bob and Pam Schilling
Rapid City, SD
"78 Royale
[Updated on: Mon, 25 July 2016 08:38] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304202 is a reply to message #304201] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 08:49  |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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My guess Bob, is two separate problems.
#1 generator --- replace the bridge rectifier. also make sure you always turn off all electrial loads, then turn on generator, then turn on electrial loads. then shut off electrical loads then shut off generator. usually no generator electrical output is the Bridge rectifier.
http://www.newark.com/nte-electronics/nte5328/bridge-rectifier-single-phase/dp/06M7449?MER=PPSO_N_C_EverywhereElse_None
#2 problem GFI tripping. normally 30 amp outlets are not GFI protected, and therefore you will not pop the GFI. (you can also cut off the ground on your 15/20 amp plug and it will not Pop a GFI outlet). HOWEVER- there IS something wrong, and can be a safety problem if it is tripping the GFI when you plug in your coach!!. there are some things that can be easily found, and some not so easily found. You can try to switch off breakers in the coach to see if it can be plugged into a GFI outlet without popping, but that not a for sure method at all. the for sure method is with the generator off, and the coach NOT plugged in, I found it not to difficult to open up the panel, and use a VOM meter and measure continuity/resistance between the neutral(white)- and the ground by pulling each romex wire in the panel off to isolate the circuit in the coach that is the problem. There should be no resistance between the neutral and ground. I found one bad outlet in my coach, and I found a capacitor inside my A/C unit as being two things in my coach that caused the GFI to pop.
call me on the blacklist if you want better verbal directions. or drive up to MN
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304205 is a reply to message #304202] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 09:09 |
Bob S.
Messages: 143
Registered: October 2012
Location: Rapid City, SD
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Hi Jon, Thank you for the information. Was the capacitor in the A/C bad or is it normal for them to pop the GFI? Also I have a little gadget that I bought at Lowes that you plug into an outlet, that will tell you if it is wired right. Would the gadget be helpful in finding a bad outlet? And one more question, is the bridge rectifier something I can do or would it be smarter to take it to the cash hungry generator repair guy. I noticed on Jim K's website that there is a modification that needs to be done to make it work. Once again is it a pretty straight forward mod?
Bob and Pam Schilling
Rapid City, SD
"78 Royale
[Updated on: Mon, 25 July 2016 09:23] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Help with electrical problem [message #304207 is a reply to message #304201] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 09:22 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
I agree with the analysis that you probably have two malfunctions.
One other thing to check on the Onan is its dedicated circuit breaker at
top center rear when you slide it out.
If you have an electric water heater, try opening its circuit breaker.
They're prone to GFI-tripping leakage..
Ken H.
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Bob Schilling
wrote:
> Hi All, I need a little guidance as to where to start looking for an
> electrical gremlin. On Friday as I was getting ready for a weekend trip I
> started
> the Onan, let it warm up and then turned on the roof A/C. Everything
> worked fine so I left the coach to load a few more things and when I came
> back I
> had no electrical power (110 volt) at all. I checked all the breakers and
> the Onan, which was still running fine, and could fine nothing obvious. We
> headed out with just the dash air running and got to our campsite fine.
> When I went to plug into shore power, it immediately tripped a 20 amp GFI
> repeatedly, (no 30 amp available) with almost nothing on in the coach. I
> then found another 20 amp GFI and tried that with same result. Finally I was
> able to find a 30 amp hook up and was surprised to find that everything
> worked fine. When I returned home I tried my brand new 20 amp GFI and it did
> exactly the same thing. Once again I plugged into my 30 amp and everything
> is working fine. I tried my generator again and still no power to any 110
> volt in the coach. Questions are; where should I start looking and do I
> have a separate problem with the generator and shore power, or is the same
> gremlin causing both issues? Any and all help or suggestions are greatly
> appreciated as I am incredibly challenged when it comes to electricity.
> --
> Bob and Pam Schilling
> Rapid City, SD
> "78 Royale
>
>
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> GMCnet mailing list
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304208 is a reply to message #304201] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 09:34 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
Jon's assessment is a good start, but I will add some direct experience here.
I don't know Royales specifically, but others here do. This is all a general trouble shoot.
A lesson learned from working on the shore power on boats and RVs is that the terminal screws in the panel can loosen with vibration that is not common in homes (except maybe in California). So, with no AC in the coach, open the panel and do a check torque on every screw. This is not likely the cause of your issue, but it actually can be and it is easy to do.
The thing most likely to trip a GFI (I'm old and still use that instead of GFCI) is heaters that fail. But, there can be lots of causes. To start searching, turn off the breaker for the reefer and the waterheater. (Heating elements are notorious for creating internal shorts.)
Still trip?
Turn off the A/C- Yes/No?
Turn off all the breakers and turn them back on one at a time.
This can be found, and you just have to get a binary search right to point it out.
Matt
Bob S. wrote on Mon, 25 July 2016 09:31Hi All, I need a little guidance as to where to start looking for an electrical gremlin. On Friday as I was getting ready for a weekend trip I started the Onan, let it warm up and then turned on the roof A/C. Everything worked fine so I left the coach to load a few more things and when I came back I had no electrical power (110 volt) at all. I checked all the breakers and the Onan, which was still running fine, and could fine nothing obvious. We headed out with just the dash air running and got to our campsite fine. When I went to plug into shore power, it immediately tripped a 20 amp GFI repeatedly, (no 30 amp available) with almost nothing on in the coach. I then found another 20 amp GFI and tried that with same result. Finally I was able to find a 30 amp hook up and was surprised to find that everything worked fine. When I returned home I tried my brand new 20 amp GFI and it did exactly the same thing. Once again I plugged into my 30 amp and everything is working fine. I tried my generator again and still no power to any 110 volt in the coach. Questions are; where should I start looking and do I have a separate problem with the generator and shore power, or is the same gremlin causing both issues? Any and all help or suggestions are greatly appreciated as I am incredibly challenged when it comes to electricity.
I should mention that I have a 78 Royale, rear bath, and it has one breaker box in the closet that I believe controls the rear air and another breaker box that in under the passenger side rear couch/bed the controls power from shore or Generator.
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304210 is a reply to message #304201] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 09:44 |
77Royale
Messages: 461
Registered: June 2014
Location: Mid Michigan
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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If its a Royale, it may not have an electric heating element in the H2O tank unless it was added on or the tank was replaced with one. Mines a gas with engine assist.
Replacing the Onan Bridge is not too bad of a job, 20 mins or so. Its a bit hard to get to, but once you have it dropped down. you just need to carefully bend a few tabs to the orientation that the old one had. DO DO DO Mark the Bridge coming out prior to pulling it. They only are supposed to go in one way and looking at it can be confusing.
77 Royale, Rear Dry Bath. 403, 3.55 Final Drive, Lenzi goodies, Patterson carb and dizzy.
Mid Michigan
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304213 is a reply to message #304202] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 10:16 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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When mine did something similar, it was the lug connection of the supply line inside the breaker box. It had loosened over 40 years on one side and disconnected itself when it got warm due to resistance from the slightest bit of corrosion on the terminal. Apparently the AC drew more current on the generator than on shore power because of the lower power factor available from the generator.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304214 is a reply to message #304205] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 10:32 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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The Capacitor in my original A/C was bad. I was able to chase it down by measuring the continuity accross the ground to neutral at the panel on that wire. then isolated it at an outlet in the ceiling, then found it still showing continuity going into the A/C unit. when I pulled the A/C unit electrial apart up on the roof, the capacitor (big capacitor, like a coke can), was expanded. A $25 matching capacitor from the electric motor store, and the short accross the ground/neutral on that feed went away, and I no longer pop GFI when i plug my coach in.
I also had one other outlet that was just shot, that i found prior to hunting up the A/C unit. and that outlet test thing you have, is a good tool to use on your outlets, and a good starting point to make sure everything is wired correct, and find the obvious problems. It will not necessarily help finding a tricky GFI popping problem. I like having one plugged in just to tell me I have power.
I have not changed my bridge rectifier out. But I would not pay a cash hungry generator guy to replace that. I believe it is a DIY thing and know people who are not too mechically inclined successfully swapped them out. Cell phone pictures of before and after the work is easy thing to do.
If you do not feel confident working on your 110v electrical system, call me on the phone and I can explain and we can get a good understanding of what you need to check and do, without screwing anything up or hurting yourself.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304221 is a reply to message #304201] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 11:51 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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Senior Member |
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Bob S. wrote on Mon, 25 July 2016 08:31Hi All, I need a little guidance as to where to start looking for an electrical gremlin. On Friday as I was getting ready for a weekend trip I started the Onan, let it warm up and then turned on the roof A/C. Everything worked fine so I left the coach to load a few more things and when I came back I had no electrical power (110 volt) at all. I checked all the breakers and the Onan, which was still running fine, and could fine nothing obvious. We headed out with just the dash air running and got to our campsite fine. When I went to plug into shore power, it immediately tripped a 20 amp GFI repeatedly, (no 30 amp available) with almost nothing on in the coach. I then found another 20 amp GFI and tried that with same result. Finally I was able to find a 30 amp hook up and was surprised to find that everything worked fine. When I returned home I tried my brand new 20 amp GFI and it did exactly the same thing. Once again I plugged into my 30 amp and everything is working fine. I tried my generator again and still no power to any 110 volt in the coach. Questions are; where should I start looking and do I have a separate problem with the generator and shore power, or is the same gremlin causing both issues? Any and all help or suggestions are greatly appreciated as I am incredibly challenged when it comes to electricity.
I should mention that I have a 78 Royale, rear bath, and it has one breaker box in the closet that I believe controls the rear air and another breaker box that in under the passenger side rear couch/bed the controls power from shore or Generator. I am going to do a little theorizing here.
I agree with everyone saying you have two problems. The order of fixing the Onan is, check the breaker on top of the Onan, check the bridge rectifier, check the field windings for the correct resistance. That last one is the hardest to fix if that is the problem.
On the GFI tripping, I will expand on what others said about the water heater. When the water heater burns an element, it often turns into a short circuit that trips GFI breakers. When you try connecting shore power to GFI with the water heater off, let us know if it trips.
What might have happened is the roof AC was running and the water heater didn't have water in it. When the element burned up, it tripped the breaker on the Onan. Getting the Onan back up and running is easy if that is the case. Changing that water heater element might require you to be a contortionist, or taking some interior apart to get to it.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Help with electrical problem [message #304231 is a reply to message #304221] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 14:38 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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I commented earlier on the possible Onan problems, but did not say anything about the GFI Problem,
I went thru this same situation back in our first coach a 77 Eleganza II. At home it would always work just fine on the 30A plug at the house, plug it into a GFI protected outlet and it would trip the GFI. To really fix this right you are going to have to separate the neutral (white) and ground (copper) wires inside the breaker box in your coach. What does that mean? Typically in the past from the factory those 2 types of wires were all on the same bus bar on the side of lower portion of the box and it might have had the white neutral wire bus bar and the ground bus bar tied together. As our Breaker Box is actually a secondary box, which means that it is another breaker box after the park breaker box. Code says that you must separate the neutral (white) and Ground (copper) electrically from each other. I have rewired a number of coaches by separating the neutral and grounds. That means that inside your coach out to the plug the Hot(black), Neutral (white) and Ground (Copper) are electrically separated, when you had the white and copper wires tied together the GFI would sense a ground fault. They SHOULD also be separate inside the power pedestal. Even after this has been corrected you can still have an issue with the hot water heater element that has failed partially (still heats the water) allowing a current leakage to ground inside the water heater. The GFI says that you have a fault. You can test that quickly by unplugging the hot water heater if it plugs into the switch.
In my shop I have a number of GFI circuits as required by code, but the 30A plugs. 2 for coach power and 3 inside the wood shop for tools are not on a GFI circuit breaker.
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion
Michigan
> On Jul 25, 2016, at 12:51 PM, A. wrote:
>
> Bob S. wrote on Mon, 25 July 2016 08:31
>> Hi All, I need a little guidance as to where to start looking for an electrical gremlin. On Friday as I was getting ready for a weekend trip I
>> started the Onan, let it warm up and then turned on the roof A/C. Everything worked fine so I left the coach to load a few more things and when I
>> came back I had no electrical power (110 volt) at all. I checked all the breakers and the Onan, which was still running fine, and could fine nothing
>> obvious. We headed out with just the dash air running and got to our campsite fine. When I went to plug into shore power, it immediately tripped a
>> 20 amp GFI repeatedly, (no 30 amp available) with almost nothing on in the coach. I then found another 20 amp GFI and tried that with same result.
>> Finally I was able to find a 30 amp hook up and was surprised to find that everything worked fine. When I returned home I tried my brand new 20 amp
>> GFI and it did exactly the same thing. Once again I plugged into my 30 amp and everything is working fine. I tried my generator again and still no
>> power to any 110 volt in the coach. Questions are; where should I start looking and do I have a separate problem with the generator and shore power,
>> or is the same gremlin causing both issues? Any and all help or suggestions are greatly appreciated as I am incredibly challenged when it comes to
>> electricity.
>> I should mention that I have a 78 Royale, rear bath, and it has one breaker box in the closet that I believe controls the rear air and another
>> breaker box that in under the passenger side rear couch/bed the controls power from shore or Generator.
> I am going to do a little theorizing here.
>
> I agree with everyone saying you have two problems. The order of fixing the Onan is, check the breaker on top of the Onan, check the bridge rectifier,
> check the field windings for the correct resistance. That last one is the hardest to fix if that is the problem.
>
> On the GFI tripping, I will expand on what others said about the water heater. When the water heater burns an element, it often turns into a short
> circuit that trips GFI breakers. When you try connecting shore power to GFI with the water heater off, let us know if it trips.
>
> What might have happened is the roof AC was running and the water heater didn't have water in it. When the element burned up, it tripped the breaker
> on the Onan. Getting the Onan back up and running is easy if that is the case. Changing that water heater element might require you to be a
> contortionist, or taking some interior apart to get to it.
> --
> 73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
> 73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
> Upper Alabama
> "Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304232 is a reply to message #304202] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 14:51 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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You actually need to DISCONNECT the neutral going to the water heating element to test for a GFI type short to ground. Just turning off the hot side will not clear the short of the element to ground.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304238 is a reply to message #304201] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 17:18 |
Bob S.
Messages: 143
Registered: October 2012
Location: Rapid City, SD
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Wow, as always the help here is incredible. My electric hot water heater hasn't been run for a while but I will definitely check it when I get a chance. On my lunch hour I went home and fired up ol' Genny to see if I was getting 110 to the breaker box. I had no power at all there so I ordered a couple of the 5010 bridge rectifiers which I hope fixes my problem. They should arrive tomorrow and I'll install them immediately. I did check the breaker on the top of the gen and it seems to ok. Once again thanks to everyone for all the advice. If I can't get it fixed I will be back to bug everyone again.
Bob and Pam Schilling
Rapid City, SD
"78 Royale
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304246 is a reply to message #304201] |
Mon, 25 July 2016 21:38 |
Steve
Messages: 506
Registered: September 2013
Location: East Greenville, Pa
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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My 78 Royale has a breaker box in the closet in the rear bath. One of those breakers controls the 30 amp service to the coach. Check to see that they are both on. One time I was loading the coach and accidentally tripped that breaker Shen stowing items in the closet. Also, like Matt and Terry I had very loose lug connections in the breaker boxes. My generator ran but no voltage. When I tightened the lugs it excited the generator circuit and it began producing 110 V.
1978 GMC Royal
Eastern Pennslyvania
1968 Chevrolet C20 396 Camper Special
1969 Chevrolet C20 Camper Special
1985 Buick Electra Park Avenue
1992 Camaro 25th Anniversary Heretage Edition Black
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304317 is a reply to message #304201] |
Wed, 27 July 2016 08:18 |
Bob S.
Messages: 143
Registered: October 2012
Location: Rapid City, SD
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Bad news, I replaced the bridge rectifier and no change. I didn't have time to proceed any further. It looks like I'm going to have to get the manuals out and start checking things. I have a little button on top of the gen that I believe is a circuit breaker. I'm not sure that it is working, so I'll check that when time permits. Thanks for all the help and advice so far. The adventure continues.
Bob and Pam Schilling
Rapid City, SD
"78 Royale
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304321 is a reply to message #304317] |
Wed, 27 July 2016 08:35 |
77Royale
Messages: 461
Registered: June 2014
Location: Mid Michigan
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Just triple make sure the new bridge was put in the correct way. I had to stare at mine for a good 10 mins just to make sure. The markings on the new one were not all that clear, and yes on top of the onan is a button which is a breaker, Id exercise it a few times.
77 Royale, Rear Dry Bath. 403, 3.55 Final Drive, Lenzi goodies, Patterson carb and dizzy.
Mid Michigan
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304324 is a reply to message #304201] |
Wed, 27 July 2016 09:04 |
Bob S.
Messages: 143
Registered: October 2012
Location: Rapid City, SD
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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I took heed of the warnings I read here on the forum and marked the old BR and the plastic housing before removing it. I matched up the terminal that was marked "AC" on both terminals and then tried to bend the terminals to modify the BR to match the old one. It didn't seem to fit very well with the new modification so I may remove it again and see if I broke a terminal on reinstallation. I bought two BR just incase. The circuit breaker on top does not feel like it is doing anything. When I push the button it has no resistance and I cant feel any spring in it. Is there a spring or is this normal?
I have to go to an Onan repair facility to pick up a part for my son's SOB today so I'll also check with them to see if they have any suggestions.
Bob and Pam Schilling
Rapid City, SD
"78 Royale
[Updated on: Wed, 27 July 2016 09:06] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304328 is a reply to message #304201] |
Wed, 27 July 2016 09:22 |
77Royale
Messages: 461
Registered: June 2014
Location: Mid Michigan
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Im pretty sure there should be some resistance in the button when your resetting it... That may be an issue. I have read here where some have modified the button and housing to take a house type flip switch breaker.. Or the onan place may have a replacement. Jim K does as well.
77 Royale, Rear Dry Bath. 403, 3.55 Final Drive, Lenzi goodies, Patterson carb and dizzy.
Mid Michigan
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| Re: Help with electrical problem [message #304347 is a reply to message #304201] |
Wed, 27 July 2016 11:54 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
take a couple steps back I think.....
Where are you checking for voltage on the Onan? I am asking because the wires are behind the onan, they can come loose, or be corroded. the onan moves in and out, so there is possibility of a connection issue there.
My circuit breaker on top of my onan has never popped on me, and I think it feels the same as yours as you described- not sure if it functions. So I think if it pops, it will pop up and you should notice a spring, but if it is working, I think it feels like there is no spring/function of that breaker??
Wally had that problem with the power connectors: http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/power-level-valve-fitting/p55241-onan-connector.html
here is a picture of a replacement circuit breaker:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/circuit-breaker-upgrade/p36740-6-kw-circuit-breaker-upgrade.html
Someone else can maybe chime in at the best location to measure 110v off the onan, to see if the onan is, or is not producting 110v. to separate the issue as to if the onan is the problem, or the connection to the coach is the problem?? I would guess at the circut breaker?? or where do the AC wires leave the onan?
be careful not to short, or zap yourself! you can always with Onan off, tape your VOM meter leads to the wire, then stand back, rather then try to hold the leads, wire and risk grounding yourself.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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