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| [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299545] |
Sat, 23 April 2016 11:23  |
glwgmc
Messages: 1014
Registered: June 2004
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Hi Billy,
As I understand it, where a carb uses vacuum and springs to control the amount of fuel introduced into the air stream entering the carb, EFI uses an O2 sensor in the exhaust after combustion to maintain the desired air/fuel ratio for the load. The oxygen content of the air decreases the higher you go so in a conventional carb the relative amount of fuel introduced remains the same. At higher altitudes you run richer and power decreases. With EFI, since it is measuring the fuel to oxygen ratio directly, it can compensate for the change in oxygen available at different altitudes to keep the air/fuel ratio relatively the same. A conventional distributor only knows initial advance, speed of rotation and vacuum and uses those three pieces of information to determine spark advance at any given moment so advance would be the same for the same speed and load at any altitude.
One of our other posters with far more experience with the intricacies of EFI and computer controlled spark advance may be able to give a more compete explanation.
Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
============
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2016 08:39:14 -0500
From: Billy Massey
To: "gmclist@list.gmcnet.org"
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Me to. And how does altitude compensation work without connecting to the
distributor?
bdub
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Kerby, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299550 is a reply to message #299545] |
Sat, 23 April 2016 12:17  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Perhaps a simplified explanation of how EBL works will help: A spark
advance table is pre-programmed to, hopefully, correspond closely to the
engine's load, as recognized by MAP (vacuum) and RPM. The table grid
contains spark advance settings for all likely combinations of those two.
AFAIK, the FiTech system uses the same type table. The difference is what
happens when the table is wrong:
With the EBL (and basic GMC system WITH spark control -- not all have it),
there is a knock sensor and associated circuitry and software. When knocks
(pings) are detected, the ECU (Engine Control Unit -- "computer") subtracts
a set bias value from the spark advance extracted from the table. It then
"listens" for more knocks and either holds its setting or subtracts more
advance. After a programmed period of no knocks, the bias is removed.
There is also a programmed maximum which can be removed. Since this
process is operating continuously, knocks are reduced to those few required
to trigger the retard process. This is true regardless of altitude,
temperature, fuel quality, or other factors.
Since the FiTech has no knock detector, it cannot automatically retard
spark to reduce knocks. Therefore, in this regard it can offer no more
than a convenient way to "manually" curve a mechanical distributor.
Feel free to add details about either system; hopefully this is sufficient
to clarify the differences.
Ken H.
On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Gerald Work wrote:
> Hi Billy,
>
> As I understand it, where a carb uses vacuum and springs to control the
> amount of fuel introduced into the air stream entering the carb, EFI uses
> an O2 sensor in the exhaust after combustion to maintain the desired
> air/fuel ratio for the load. The oxygen content of the air decreases the
> higher you go so in a conventional carb the relative amount of fuel
> introduced remains the same. At higher altitudes you run richer and power
> decreases. With EFI, since it is measuring the fuel to oxygen ratio
> directly, it can compensate for the change in oxygen available at different
> altitudes to keep the air/fuel ratio relatively the same. A conventional
> distributor only knows initial advance, speed of rotation and vacuum and
> uses those three pieces of information to determine spark advance at any
> given moment so advance would be the same for the same speed and load at
> any altitude.
>
> One of our other posters with far more experience with the intricacies of
> EFI and computer controlled spark advance may be able to give a more
> compete explanation.
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299552 is a reply to message #299550] |
Sat, 23 April 2016 13:16 |
Justin Brady
Messages: 769
Registered: April 2015
Location: Bell Buckle, TN
Karma: 11
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True on all counts.
In its most basic form the FiTech is an AFR controller. It manipulates the amount of fuel in the combustion chamber to maintain the desired AFR at all times.
Ken is right. The FiTech uses a 3x3 table setup for timing control (at least on the models we will be using, the higher power models have bigger tables). This is less than ideal, and you may in fact have just as good or better results with a nice hei curved properly and professionally for your coach. The advantage is if you have an off the shelf distributor or worn out parts etc that would be difficult to detect without having a professional work over your distributor the FiTech can control it with the table and be almost as good as a well tuned distributor.
There is no knock sensor, so the FiTech spark control in my opinion should not be used to try to eek out the maximum power from your engine or to try to get a 2mpg boost. In my eyes it's purpose is to give piece of mind that your engine is tuned to a good stable level and all is functioning properly. Since it's solid state there's nothing to wear out over time reducing things that you have to keep an eye on or worry about. This is my view on the whole system, it's purpose is not to turn your Motorhome into a drag car, but to increase convenience (cold starting, altitude changes etc) and to give piece of mind that all is functioning as best it can (or near to it)
Ken, have you (or others) done any data logging that shows the spark curve a d how often the knock sensor actually comes into play? Id be curious to see the numbers on whether it's being used to maximize power and mileage or if it's just there as an extra sefety measure.
Justin Brady
http://www.thegmcrv.com/
1976 Palm Beach 455
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299554 is a reply to message #299552] |
Sat, 23 April 2016 14:00 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Justin,
I have done very little data logging, none over the past couple of years.
Randy Van Winkle and George Beckman are the guru's on the EBL system and
have done a lot of logging. Whether they've concentrated on the spark
tables, I don't know.
You and others interested in EFI, whether FiTech or others, may want to
join our Google EFI Group:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/gmcmh-efi
Since we don't cover anything except EFI, there's not much traffic and
practically all of it is valuable.
Ken H.
On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Justin Brady wrote:
> True on all counts.
> In its most basic form the FiTech is an AFR controller. It manipulates the
> amount of fuel in the combustion chamber to maintain the desired AFR at all
> times.
>
...
> Ken, have you (or others) done any data logging that shows the spark curve
> a d how often the knock sensor actually comes into play? Id be curious to
> see the numbers on whether it's being used to maximize power and mileage
> or if it's just there as an extra sefety measure.
> --
>
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299557 is a reply to message #299552] |
Sat, 23 April 2016 14:53 |
rvanwin
Messages: 325
Registered: April 2007
Location: Battlefield, MO
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SONICJK wrote on Sat, 23 April 2016 13:16True on all counts.
In its most basic form the FiTech is an AFR controller. It manipulates the amount of fuel in the combustion chamber to maintain the desired AFR at all times.
...
Ken is right. The FiTech uses a 3x3 table setup for timing control (at least on the models we will be using, the higher power models have bigger tables). This is less than ideal, and you may in fact have just as good or better results with a nice hei curved properly and professionally for your coach. Ken, have you (or others) done any data logging that shows the spark curve a d how often the knock sensor actually comes into play? Id be curious to see the numbers on whether it's being used to maximize power and mileage or if it's just there as an extra sefety measure.
A couple of us have done extensive testing with fuel (Air Fuel Ratio (AFR)) and spark control with the Howell/EBL setup. EmBedded Locker system (EBL)is an add-on to the 80s and 90s Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) systems that many of us have retrofitted to the 455 or 403 that makes the original Electronic Control Modules (ECM) very similar in function to modern day ECMs and aftermarket EFI systems with self learning. There is not a lot that can be done with fuel. Most carbs and EFI units will mix fuel and air for a good burn. However, EFI units of whatever variety does do a better job of mixing fuel and air under a variety of different conditions, such as altitude, heat, cold, load, no loads, etc. whereas, a carb is limited to mixtures based on the particular metering rod. Under load, a carb opens the secondaries and pours in the fuel. EFI is a bit more precise. One other thing with the EBL setup, is the ability to run lean when just cruising (no load). In testing for the GMC MH, we have found that around 16.5 to 1 is the appropriate ratio when under no load. Engine combustion temps will actually cool some in this mode as measured by Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT) probes that I have on my engine. The important point here is when load starts to increase, the AFR needs to quickly get richer or engine combustion temps will rise and it rises very quickly. The EBL allows tuning of this situation so that ratios are getting richer fast enough to keep temps under control.
The other component to running leaner is that spark must also be advanced. The flame front is harder to start and spreads slower when the AFR is lean. Again, in our tuning we have found that 5 degrees of additional advance is needed to keep producing enough power to keep the engine running efficiently and to maintain cruise speed. Once load is encountered, then Spark Advance (SA) needs to drop back. Again, the EBL allows tuning of these parameters. When I'm cruising at 65, AFR is around 16.5 and SA is 48 degrees. I do have a 403 and it likes a tad more advance than a 455 but not by a bunch. My friend, George has a 455 and we have done testing with my 403 and his 455 and have ended up with similar spark curves with mine perhaps being a couple of degrees more advanced.
Our engines are not spark limited under most conditions with the exception of when under hard pulls. The EBL has many cells (as Ken indicated, each cell is defined by Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP), which is sort of a measure of vacuum, and Revolutions Per Minute (RPM))which allows for SA to be calibrated in those cells were pinging or knocks are prevalent when under load. The advantage over a non computer controlled distributor, or computer controlled that is only mimicking a manual distributor (eg, very small spark table), is that you can tune only the cells where the knocks are occurring (I let the knock sensor tell me where those are). With a manual distributor, if you hear a knock, you twist the distributor in retard direction a couple of degrees to correct. The problem is you have now adjusted the whole spark curve those two degrees affecting advance in the cruise area which is where the miles per gallon is obtained. I always want to make sure the SA is tuned to avoid any pinging then rely on the knock sensor to "protect" the engine if I get a tank of bad gas (which happens), or if a spark plug starts producing a hot spot (which has happened to me). Modern day knock sensing is sophisticated enough where engines can run equally well on high octane or low octane gas. A lot of engineering goes into knock sensor technology and probably why these more inexpensive aftermarket EFI systems do not include knock sensor technology. For that reason, I do not totally trust the knock sensor technology from the 80s and 90s that we are using so I tune to avoid knocks and use the knock sensor to "protect" the engine from bad gas, etc. That being said, I always marvel at the fact that the knock indicator starts to show knocks before I actually hear any.
Randy & Margie
'77 Eleganza II '403'
Battlefield, MO
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299558 is a reply to message #299557] |
Sat, 23 April 2016 15:13 |
Justin Brady
Messages: 769
Registered: April 2015
Location: Bell Buckle, TN
Karma: 11
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Randy,
Good information,
That's basically what I was getting at.
My question is what is the lean cruise netting you? Slightly higher mpg? More power? These are my my personal reasons for going efi in the first place, neither is a primary concern of mine. I am curious though.
There are certainly better efi systems available than the FiTech. There's no debate there, but the question becomes why are you going efi? For me it's so I dont have to worry about the spark tables or if I'm running lean or if I'm going to overheat going over the pass because my AFR is off due to altitude. For me it's all about ease of use, convenience, and piece of mind. I have zero desire to constantly tweak things, that's not why I want my GMC.
For my weekend toy 69 GMC stepside sure, more power more torque more everything and tweaking is half the fun, but for the Motorhome I want to set it and forget it if you know what I mean.
Again this is all personal opinion, but I'd wager that this is the reason the FiTech is so popular, because people share these sentiments.
Justin Brady
http://www.thegmcrv.com/
1976 Palm Beach 455
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299560 is a reply to message #299558] |
Sat, 23 April 2016 15:42 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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What Randy said! I tried to hint around at the complexities, but he has a
way of condensing the subjects. Whenever I try to do that, I get cut off at
the pockets by the network administrator for using too much bandwidth. The
place for these technical subjects is not the GMCnet. The efi forum will
get as specific as any sane person needs. (Grin)
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403.
On Apr 23, 2016 1:14 PM, "Justin Brady" wrote:
> Randy,
> Good information,
> That's basically what I was getting at.
> My question is what is the lean cruise netting you? Slightly higher mpg?
> More power? These are my my personal reasons for going efi in the first
> place, neither is a primary concern of mine. I am curious though.
> There are certainly better efi systems available than the FiTech. There's
> no debate there, but the question becomes why are you going efi? For me it's
> so I dont have to worry about the spark tables or if I'm running lean or
> if I'm going to overheat going over the pass because my AFR is off due to
> altitude. For me it's all about ease of use, convenience, and piece of
> mind. I have zero desire to constantly tweak things, that's not why I want
> my
> GMC.
> For my weekend toy 69 GMC stepside sure, more power more torque more
> everything and tweaking is half the fun, but for the Motorhome I want to
> set it
> and forget it if you know what I mean.
>
> Again this is all personal opinion, but I'd wager that this is the reason
> the FiTech is so popular, because people share these sentiments.
> --
> Justin Brady
> http://www.thegmcrv.com/
> 1976 Palm Beach 455
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299561 is a reply to message #299557] |
Sat, 23 April 2016 15:46 |
bdub
Messages: 1578
Registered: February 2004
Location: Central Texas
Karma: 5
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Hi Randy
Thank you for this excellent explanation.
Just excellent!
bdub
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist On Behalf Of Randy Van Winkle
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 2:54 PM
A couple of us have done extensive testing with fuel (Air Fuel Ratio (AFR))
and spark control with the Howell/EBL setup. EmBedded Locker system (EBL)is
an add-on to the 80s and 90s Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) systems that
many of us have retrofitted to the 455 or 403 that makes the original
Electronic Control Modules (ECM) very similar in function to modern day ECMs
and aftermarket EFI systems with self learning. There is not a lot that can
be done with fuel. Most carbs and EFI units will mix fuel and air for a
good burn. However, EFI units of whatever variety does do a better job of
mixing fuel and air under a variety of different conditions, such as
altitude, heat, cold, load, no loads, etc. whereas, a carb is limited to
mixtures based on the particular metering rod. Under load, a carb opens the
secondaries and pours in the fuel. EFI is a bit more precise.
One other thing with the EBL setup, is the ability to run lean when just
cruising (no load). In testing for the GMC MH, we have found that around
16.5 to 1 is the appropriate ratio when under no load. Engine combustion
temps will actually cool some in this mode as measured by Exhaust Gas
Temperature (EGT) probes that I have on my engine. The important point here
is when load starts to increase, the AFR needs to quickly get richer or
engine combustion temps will rise and it rises very quickly. The EBL allows
tuning of this situation so that ratios are getting richer fast enough to
keep temps under control.
The other component to running leaner is that spark must also be advanced.
The flame front is harder to start and spreads slower when the AFR is lean.
Again, in our tuning we have found that 5 degrees of additional advance is
needed to keep producing enough power to keep the engine running efficiently
and to maintain cruise speed. Once load is encountered, then Spark Advance
(SA) needs to drop back. Again, the EBL allows tuning of these parameters.
When I'm cruising at 65, AFR is around 16.5 and SA is 48 degrees. I do have
a 403 and it likes a tad more advance than a 455 but not by a bunch. My
friend, George has a 455 and we have done testing with my 403 and his 455
and have ended up with similar spark curves with mine perhaps being a couple
of degrees more advanced.
Our engines are not spark limited under most conditions with the exception
of when under hard pulls. The EBL has many cells (as Ken indicated, each
cell is defined by Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP), which is sort of a
measure of vacuum, and Revolutions Per Minute (RPM))which allows for SA to
be calibrated in those cells were pinging or knocks are prevalent when under
load. The advantage over a non computer controlled distributor, or computer
controlled that is only mimicking a manual distributor (eg, very small spark
table), is that you can tune only the cells where the knocks are occurring
(I let the knock sensor tell me where those are). With a manual
distributor, if you hear a knock, you twist the distributor in retard
direction a couple of degrees to correct. The problem is you have now
adjusted the whole spark curve those two degrees affecting advance in the
cruise area which is where the miles per gallon is obtained. I always want
to make sure the SA is tuned to avoid any pinging then rely on the knock
sensor to "protect" the engine if I get a tank of bad gas (which happens),
or if a spark plug starts producing a hot spot (which has happened to me).
Modern day knock sensing is sophisticated enough where engines can run
equally well on high octane or low octane gas. A lot of engineering goes
into knock sensor technology and probably why these more inexpensive
aftermarket EFI systems do not include knock sensor technology. For that
reason, I do not totally trust the knock sensor technology from the 80s and
90s that we are using so I tune to avoid knocks and use the knock sensor to
"protect" the engine from bad gas, etc. That being said, I always marvel at
the fact that the knock indicator starts to show knocks before I actually
hear any.
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bdub
'76 Palm Beach/Central Texas
www.bdub.net
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www.gmcmhregistry.com
www.facebook.com/groups/classicgmcmotorhomes
www.facebook.com/groups/gmcmm
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299571 is a reply to message #299558] |
Sat, 23 April 2016 17:25 |
rvanwin
Messages: 325
Registered: April 2007
Location: Battlefield, MO
Karma: 6
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SONICJK wrote on Sat, 23 April 2016 15:13Randy,
Good information,
That's basically what I was getting at.
My question is what is the lean cruise netting you? Slightly higher mpg? More power? These are my my personal reasons for going efi in the first place, neither is a primary concern of mine. I am curious though.
There are certainly better efi systems available than the FiTech. There's no debate there, but the question becomes why are you going efi? For me it's so I dont have to worry about the spark tables or if I'm running lean or if I'm going to overheat going over the pass because my AFR is off due to altitude. For me it's all about ease of use, convenience, and piece of mind. I have zero desire to constantly tweak things, that's not why I want my GMC.
For my weekend toy 69 GMC stepside sure, more power more torque more everything and tweaking is half the fun, but for the Motorhome I want to set it and forget it if you know what I mean.
Again this is all personal opinion, but I'd wager that this is the reason the FiTech is so popular, because people share these sentiments.
First, the lean cruise does help with miles per gallon. With my display tied to the EBL, I have instantaneous mpg readout. When the EBL goes into lean cruise the mpg goes up by 1. Overall, that does not net a tremendous increase but it is fun. And with Spark Control, I can probably eek out a little more. Keep in mind, a 12,000 pound motorhome pushing a lot of air is going to consume a lot of gas no matter the type of EFI or Carb or whatever...
Now, to address the constant tweaking issue. The EBL setup gives you the tools and knobs to allow easy tweaking of the system. Doesn't mean you have to do it. I do because it is (or was) fun. I probably have not touched my setup for at least 3 to 5 years - it just works. My coach has around 120,000 miles and I have run my EFI setup for about 80,000 of those miles. And for anyone new, the basic setup that comes out of the box for a Howell/EBL system is a good conservative setup and will run years without issue providing all the benefits of EFI. I have nothing against the FITech system. I think it is an excellent setup and easy to install. It provides most of the benefits of going EFI without too much hassle. I just wish it had a better setup for handling spark control. For most, the easy install will make this an excellent choice.
I had two WOW moments. One was when I installed EFI with fuel control only. I went for my first test drive. The instant start up and responsiveness led me to say "WOW". A few months later, I added spark control. Responsiveness jumped a notch not only off the line, but especially when rolling and you punch it a little. My second "WOW".
BTW...I have no dog in the hunt here, just my experience talking.
Randy & Margie
'77 Eleganza II '403'
Battlefield, MO
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299577 is a reply to message #299571] |
Sat, 23 April 2016 19:28 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Our Howell EBL system is plug and play.
85% of our customers never touch a thing as we pre program the ECM either
the 455/403.
Should there be a problem, we have several people like Randy,Ken and Walt
that are running them on their coaches and can assist you 7 days a week.
There are lot of people that have the basic Howell system and are not aware
of the EBL system we sell.
I just feel that if your going to go with the EFI way, step up and take
advantage of the more advanced feature.
We do sell the MSD Throttle Body unit, which is very similar to the Fi Tech
unit, so I understand the difference.
Lean run is always misunderstood, Less fuel, cooler the combustion .
Think about it, first time I heard that, I raised my hand and questioned
that and soon realized why it works with our burning up the valves,etc.
We do not have the Lean Run feature activated when we sell or units. We
leave that up to the customer to contact others that are running it that
way.
On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Randy Van Winkle
wrote:
> SONICJK wrote on Sat, 23 April 2016 15:13
>> Randy,
>> Good information,
>> That's basically what I was getting at.
>> My question is what is the lean cruise netting you? Slightly higher mpg?
> More power? These are my my personal reasons for going efi in the first
>> place, neither is a primary concern of mine. I am curious though.
>> There are certainly better efi systems available than the FiTech.
> There's no debate there, but the question becomes why are you going efi?
> For me
>> it's so I dont have to worry about the spark tables or if I'm running
> lean or if I'm going to overheat going over the pass because my AFR is off
> due
>> to altitude. For me it's all about ease of use, convenience, and piece
> of mind. I have zero desire to constantly tweak things, that's not why I
> want
>> my GMC.
>> For my weekend toy 69 GMC stepside sure, more power more torque more
> everything and tweaking is half the fun, but for the Motorhome I want to set
>> it and forget it if you know what I mean.
>>
>> Again this is all personal opinion, but I'd wager that this is the
> reason the FiTech is so popular, because people share these sentiments.
>
>
> First, the lean cruise does help with miles per gallon. With my display
> tied to the EBL, I have instantaneous mpg readout. When the EBL goes into
> lean cruise the mpg goes up by 1. Overall, that does not net a tremendous
> increase but it is fun. And with Spark Control, I can probably eek out a
> little more. Keep in mind, a 12,000 pound motorhome pushing a lot of air
> is going to consume a lot of gas no matter the type of EFI or Carb or
> whatever...
>
> Now, to address the constant tweaking issue. The EBL setup gives you the
> tools and knobs to allow easy tweaking of the system. Doesn't mean you have
> to do it. I do because it is (or was) fun. I probably have not touched
> my setup for at least 3 to 5 years - it just works. My coach has around
> 120,000 miles and I have run my EFI setup for about 80,000 of those miles.
> And for anyone new, the basic setup that comes out of the box for a
> Howell/EBL system is a good conservative setup and will run years without
> issue providing all the benefits of EFI. I have nothing against the FITech
> system. I think it is an excellent setup and easy to install. It provides
> most of the benefits of going EFI without too much hassle. I just wish it
> had a better setup for handling spark control. For most, the easy install
> will make this an excellent choice.
>
> I had two WOW moments. One was when I installed EFI with fuel control
> only. I went for my first test drive. The instant start up and
> responsiveness
> led me to say "WOW". A few months later, I added spark control.
> Responsiveness jumped a notch not only off the line, but especially when
> rolling and
> you punch it a little. My second "WOW".
>
> BTW...I have no dog in the hunt here, just my experience talking.
>
> --
> Randy & Margie
> '77 Eleganza II '403'
> Battlefield, MO
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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