Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » When it rains...
| When it rains... [message #299292] |
Tue, 19 April 2016 19:41  |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Spent the afternoon with Gary Kosier trying to get his coach alternator to charge. He took it off, installed his spare, and took the removed one to AutoZone who said it's OK per their tester. Spare had tested good, but still no charge. 12V on both wires at the plug, nothing on the output post. This is a Cadillac engine, and a different alternator, having the regulator on the rear instead of in the case. Brush to brush measures around 3 Ohms, which seems about correct. We shined all the connectors on the relay post and the 12v source post, and replaced one questionable connection, but nothing. I suggested he coubnsel with Dollar Carb and Electric in Gainesville in the morning, and get a regulator and set of brushes which we can install. This cured mine which exhibited the same symptoms. Coach has an APC installed. My experience has been, some of the alternators simply don't work with the external sense line.
Meantimes, a lady is dead beside the road in Demorest, Tony Bennett just got there, called me, and said it looks like she had a dead battery. He's moving one of her house batteries over to see if that will heal the problem of no start and dead engine; and then will see if the alternator is charging. I'm waiting to hear back from him, I've a spare we can install if need be.
Gary can make it home on his Onan running in the daylight if need be. If we can get a hot battery in the lady's coach we can likely get it to his shop or my driveway or Frady's place in Buford if need be.
Keep watching this space, and remember - Ammeters are cheap.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] When it rains... [message #299295 is a reply to message #299292] |
Tue, 19 April 2016 20:25  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Johnny,
The alternator's obviously been working so you're looking for something
that's changed. Have you tested the APC? Be sure the excitation voltage
is getting through. If that's OK, I'd try jumping the feedback lead to the
output terminal (not much chance of that working in this case since you;re
not seeing high output voltage).
I talked to Jenni (sp) (friend of the strandee) after you did. Couldn't do
much but give her the name of another GMCer in Gainesville,
Good luck to all!
Ken H.
On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 8:41 PM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Spent the afternoon with Gary Kosier trying to get his coach alternator to
> charge. He took it off, installed his spare, and took the removed one to
> AutoZone who said it's OK per their tester. Spare had tested good, but
> still no charge. 12V on both wires at the plug, nothing on the output post.
> This is a Cadillac engine, and a different alternator, having the
> regulator on the rear instead of in the case. Brush to brush measures
> around 3
> Ohms, which seems about correct. We shined all the connectors on the
> relay post and the 12v source post, and replaced one questionable
> connection,
> but nothing. I suggested he coubnsel with Dollar Carb and Electric in
> Gainesville in the morning, and get a regulator and set of brushes which we
> can
> install. This cured mine which exhibited the same symptoms. Coach has an
> APC installed. My experience has been, some of the alternators simply
> don't work with the external sense line.
> Meantimes, a lady is dead beside the road in Demorest, Tony Bennett just
> got there, called me, and said it looks like she had a dead battery. He's
> moving one of her house batteries over to see if that will heal the
> problem of no start and dead engine; and then will see if the alternator is
> charging. I'm waiting to hear back from him, I've a spare we can install
> if need be.
> Gary can make it home on his Onan running in the daylight if need be. If
> we can get a hot battery in the lady's coach we can likely get it to his
> shop or my driveway or Frady's place in Buford if need be.
> Keep watching this space, and remember - Ammeters are cheap.
>
> --johnny
>
> --
> '76 23' transmode Norris upfit
> Braselton, Ga.
>
> "Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my
> dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: When it rains... [message #299300 is a reply to message #299292] |
Tue, 19 April 2016 23:52 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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OK, I just went through this at Dothan. I exchanged the alternator at AZ and still had problems.
To make a long story short, both of the the terminals on the APC had lost tension on the female connections on the end that plugs into the alternator. My first symptom was the alternator going over voltage to about 15.9 volts because the connection for the sense line had no tension on it at all.
The second problem that appeared was it would not charge at all. This was caused by a loss of tension on the second terminal in that same plug the runs the excitation line to the alternator. It is impossible to tell when these are loose because of the way the plug goes into the alternator. So unplug the APC from the alternator. Take an electrical spade lug and trim off the sides of it slightly so it can plug all the way into the female connection on the cable. Then inset the trimmed down male spade lug into the female APC connector to see how much drag you have. If there is none, then you probably have the same problem. We managed to bend the connectors to add tension to them and the alternator ran just fine, for the 1000 miles back home. I have some new terminals (hopefully they are a better quality) that I will crimp on that APC now that I am home.
I thought it was strange that both connections on mine had no tension at all. My guess is that the female connectors on the APC have lost their tension over the years from many, many heating and cooling cycles.
Please let me know if you had the same problem.
Good luck.
Ken B.
I probably ought to post something under a fresh topic on this but I'll wait to see if yours is the same problem.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] When it rains... [message #299303 is a reply to message #299300] |
Wed, 20 April 2016 05:14 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Let me know about the apc cables
There are fake ones made and sold for the last two years,
I have had to replace 3 cables I did not make....
Erf
On Tuesday, April 19, 2016, Ken Burton wrote:
> OK, I just went through this at Dothan. I exchanged the alternator at AZ
> and still had problems.
>
> To make a long story short, both of the the terminals on the APC had lost
> tension on the female connections on the end that plugs into the alternator.
> My first symptom was the alternator going over voltage to about 15.9
> volts because the connection for the sense line had no tension on it at all.
>
> The second problem that appeared was it would not charge at all. This was
> caused by a loss of tension on the second terminal in that same plug the
> runs the excitation line to the alternator. It is impossible to tell when
> these are loose because of the way the plug goes into the alternator. So
> unplug the APC from the alternator. Take an electrical spade lug and trim
> off the sides of it slightly so it can plug all the way into the female
> connection on the cable. Then inset the trimmed down male spade lug into
> the female APC connector to see how much drag you have. If there is none,
> then you probably have the same problem. We managed to bend the
> connectors to add tension to them and the alternator ran just fine, for the
> 1000
> miles back home. I have some new terminals (hopefully they are a better
> quality) that I will crimp on that APC now that I am home.
>
> I thought it was strange that both connections on mine had no tension at
> all. My guess is that the female connectors on the APC have lost their
> tension over the years from many, many heating and cooling cycles.
>
> Please let me know if you had the same problem.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Ken B.
>
> I probably ought to post something under a fresh topic on this but I'll
> wait to see if yours is the same problem.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] When it rains... [message #299304 is a reply to message #299303] |
Wed, 20 April 2016 06:52 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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You're KIDDING!!!??? Hard to believe such underhandedness in our
community. Sure would like to know who to blacklist -- or worse!
Ken H.
On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 6:14 AM, gene Fisher wrote:
> Let me know about the apc cables
>
> There are fake ones made and sold for the last two years,
> I have had to replace 3 cables I did not make....
>
> Erf
>
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2016, Ken Burton wrote:
>
>> OK, I just went through this at Dothan. I exchanged the alternator at AZ
>> and still had problems.
>>
>> To make a long story short, both of the the terminals on the APC had lost
>> tension on the female connections on the end that plugs into the
> alternator.
>> My first symptom was the alternator going over voltage to about 15.9
>> volts because the connection for the sense line had no tension on it at
> all.
>>
>> The second problem that appeared was it would not charge at all. This
> was
>> caused by a loss of tension on the second terminal in that same plug the
>> runs the excitation line to the alternator. It is impossible to tell
> when
>> these are loose because of the way the plug goes into the alternator. So
>> unplug the APC from the alternator. Take an electrical spade lug and
> trim
>> off the sides of it slightly so it can plug all the way into the female
>> connection on the cable. Then inset the trimmed down male spade lug into
>> the female APC connector to see how much drag you have. If there is
> none,
>> then you probably have the same problem. We managed to bend the
>> connectors to add tension to them and the alternator ran just fine, for
> the
>> 1000
>> miles back home. I have some new terminals (hopefully they are a better
>> quality) that I will crimp on that APC now that I am home.
>>
>> I thought it was strange that both connections on mine had no tension at
>> all. My guess is that the female connectors on the APC have lost their
>> tension over the years from many, many heating and cooling cycles.
>>
>> Please let me know if you had the same problem.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> Ken B.
>>
>> I probably ought to post something under a fresh topic on this but I'll
>> wait to see if yours is the same problem.
>> --
>> Ken Burton - N9KB
>> 76 Palm Beach
>> Hebron, Indiana
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: When it rains... [message #299305 is a reply to message #299292] |
Wed, 20 April 2016 07:16 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Do we really think Ken B bought a fake one at a parking lot swap meet? Or on line ftom China?
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: When it rains... [message #299309 is a reply to message #299292] |
Wed, 20 April 2016 08:42 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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The APC connector was a concern, not from loss of tension so much as the green growing in it. That was cleaned up, and one of the pins on the plug coming from the harness bypassed due to a bad crimp. Note that this is a Cadillac conversion, with a somewhat different alternator than we're used to. The APC is plugged between the wires coming out of the harness and a short adapter cable which has the APC plug on one end, and the plug for the alternator connector on the other. The alternator connector is the newer style plug with a three rib sealing collar around its perimeter. It might be even more prone to heat cycling making it lose tension, I'll suggest to Gary that he try crimping the connectors if possible. Voltage is proper up to that plug. I tried wiggling it with the engine running to check for this very problem, but at no point got sustained charge. Since there's no ammeter and only a (fairly slow updating) digital voltmeter, it isn't possible to determine if the shaking caused momentary connection and output or not.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: When it rains... [message #299311 is a reply to message #299309] |
Wed, 20 April 2016 09:26 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Johnny.
If it is a standard alternator (I believe 12SI or 15SI) used on GM vehicles of that era then what I posted applies.
Our GMCs came with an 80 amp alternator. The 100 amp Cadillac alternator is a bolt in replacement with no wiring changes. Many of GMCers (including me) have the 100 amp version used in Cadillacs of that era.
If those connectors are loose, then the alternator will do one of two things.
If the excitation connector is loose (or the APC diode is open, which is not likely) then alternator will not start and you will get no output.
If the sense line is open (heavy red wire in Gene's APC) then the alternator will go over voltage. Mine went to 15.9 volts and would probably go higher after it boiled all of my batteries dry.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] When it rains... [message #299314 is a reply to message #299303] |
Wed, 20 April 2016 09:54 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Mr ERFisher wrote on Wed, 20 April 2016 05:14Let me know about the apc cables
There are fake ones made and sold for the last two years,
I have had to replace 3 cables I did not make....
Erf
Unfortunately this is one of yours. It is part of that batch of 30 or so that you gave me 10 or more years ago to sell a rallies.
We (Colonel Ken and I) managed to bend the existing contacts for more tension and that fixed my immediate problems for the trip home from the GMCMI rally. It is strange that both contacts had lost tension. I now have 2 replacement contacts that I picked up on the way home. I will just crimp on some new ones.
You might want watch to see if more people are reporting over voltage or failure to start alternator failures due to this. If there are none, then I would chalk mine up as a fluke and be done with it.
It is a good thing that I occasionally monitor the charging voltage and caught it before I boiled all of my batteries dry and it really went over voltage.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: When it rains... [message #299335 is a reply to message #299292] |
Wed, 20 April 2016 17:18 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Conclusion:
Gary called a moment ago. Dollar Electric put his alternator on the tester, and he watched it produce 15 volts and 100 amps into a load. The Dollar guys sez "You've a bad connection someplace, go look again". As it turns out, Gary has a continuous duty solenoid he uses to provide ignition 12 volts to much of the coach. Off of it come fused pigtails for the cruise control, fuel pumps, etc. Included and tucked away underneath is one which feeds the fourth pole on the outlaw combiner which is to be used with this alternator. Lo and behold, blown fuse. Bypassed with a clip cord and he now has power. He was most apologetic that a couple of us had spent a bit of time with him hunting the trouble. He's good company, and we learnt something out of it. The Kosiers will be joint the Great Lakers upcoming rally.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] When it rains...(A.P.C. Failures) [message #299401 is a reply to message #299316] |
Thu, 21 April 2016 12:53 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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It is NOT at all unusual for the female half of the spade
connectors to be made so that they do not make a really
tight connection to the male half!
It would be highly advisable for people who use these to
physically test the amount of friction of the female half
on a fixed male half prior to releasing them for purchase
or actual use.
Considerable force SHOULD be required to mate these connectors!
Use an appropriate pliers tool to make them tight enough but
not TOO tight!
Connections that are not truly tight WILL turn into high
resistance junctions which will create heat (through voltage
drop) and further reduce connection efficiency and eventual
failure.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ Since 30 November '53 ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ Member GMCMI and Classics ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
|[ ]~~~[][ ][]\
"--OO--[]---O-"
> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:19:55 -0700
> From: mr.erfisher@gmail.com
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] When it rains...
>
> Strange that is a factory made cable crimps and connectors are all factory
>
> On Wednesday, April 20, 2016, Ken Burton wrote:
>
>> Mr ERFisher wrote on Wed, 20 April 2016 05:14
>>> Let me know about the apc cables
>>>
>>> There are fake ones made and sold for the last two years,
>>> I have had to replace 3 cables I did not make....
>>>
>>> Erf
>>
>> Unfortunately this is one of yours. It is part of that batch of 30 or so
>> that you gave me 10 or more years ago to sell a rallies.
>>
>> We (Colonel Ken and I) managed to bend the existing contacts for more
>> tension and that fixed my immediate problems for the trip home from the
>> GMCMI
>> rally. It is strange that both contacts had lost tension. I now have 2
>> replacement contacts that I picked up on the way home. I will just crimp on
>> some new ones.
>>
>> You might want watch to see if more people are reporting over voltage or
>> failure to start alternator failures due to this. If there are none, then I
>> would chalk mine up as a fluke and be done with it.
>>
>> It is a good thing that I occasionally monitor the charging voltage and
>> caught it before I boiled all of my batteries dry and it really went over
>> voltage.
>> --
>> Ken Burton - N9KB
>> 76 Palm Beach
>> Hebron, Indiana
>>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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