Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries
[GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #298909] |
Mon, 11 April 2016 22:20 |
glwgmc
Messages: 1014 Registered: June 2004
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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A while back I put together a presentation for several of the GMC club events talking about how to “Live Large in your GMC”. That is available for free download from the GMCWS, GMC Cascaders, perhaps other sites, and my own web site, http://jerrywork.com on the GMC page. That presentation was all about how to add enough battery capacity to your GMC to meet most all of your needs, which kinds of batteries to use, battery chargers/converters and battery monitors. It may be helpful to some.
I learned through that experience and subsequent experiences with many different brands of converter/chargers, monitors, inverters, batteries, wire sizes/lengths etc. to be convinced that there are real differences not apparent by simply reading spec sheets. What I found was the things aimed at the boating crowd are generally better overall quality than things aimed at the RV crowd, but they are also more expensive. In the Royale, our long distance boogie monster coach, I evolved my selections to the upper end of the boating stuff for monitors, shunts, wire sizes and converter/chargers and to the industrial stuff for inverters and batteries. At the time, I found the larger 6vdc wet cell batteries provided the most cost effective and longest life but were also the heaviest. I had to do a bunch of rearranging of stuff in the Royale to accommodate four of them in the rear compartment where the propane tank is in GMC finished coaches without badly unbalancing the loads. The downside to that is maintenance and battery acid fumes. I learned to much prefer the AGM batteries even though they are 2x the price because I could put them anywhere - including inside living spaces -, and they require no maintenance. They also can be drawn down to 80% with the same charge cycle life of wet cell batteries being drawn down to 50%. That last remark seems to be controversial, but that is what engineers from the three largest AGM battery supplier insist is the case. Doing it again I would use two 8d AGM batteries from the high end companies even though they are more expensive than the four 6vdc wet cell batteries. I also in fairness must say that I have had no issue other than constant maintenance with the wet cell 6vdc batteries now after more than six or seven years of constant use.
For monitors, I found Vitron and Blue Sea to be my choice over Xantrax and Tri-Metric, but all four of these are better than no monitor at all, no matter what you are using for battery technology. The biggest delta between brands came when I started experimenting with different inverters. Boy, what a difference! The industrial units are way, way better in every way from my experience than the heavily advertised consumer brands and beyond comprehension better than the blue light special “modified sine wave” units featured on popular cheap tool sites.
The bottom line for me is that in our GMCs it is far better to do it right and pay for right once than to try to be guided largely by price on the false premise that “well I don’t use it enough to justify doing it right”. My POV anyway. Everyone needs to make that choice for themselves, but I think the correlation between how much you actually use your coach and how many times you have compromised “right” for “price” may be higher than you think. We drive our two GMCs at least 20,000 miles each year and love every minute of it.
I am now off my soap box and back to getting ready for a fun, catch as catch can summer of exploring the north land. Rant off……..
Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
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Jerry & Sharon Work
78 Royale
Kerby, OR
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #298914 is a reply to message #298909] |
Tue, 12 April 2016 02:32 |
Justin Brady
Messages: 769 Registered: April 2015 Location: Bell Buckle, TN
Karma: 11
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Jerry,
I have found the same with the boating vs RV stuff. Rv stuff generally is aimed toward lowest price very light use, where the boating stuff is actually meant to be used (and in a rough environment) and therefore usually higher quality.
I have yet to experiment with different battery types. I like the inexpensiveness of the 6v golf cart batteries for the moment, but will likely switch to agm down the line.
Justin Brady
http://www.thegmcrv.com/
1976 Palm Beach 455
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #298916 is a reply to message #298909] |
Tue, 12 April 2016 02:50 |
appie
Messages: 902 Registered: April 2013 Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Jerry. Tried to see your presentation but got only the frontpage on my ipad?
As you I installed top brand stuff. As I am a dutchman I chose Victron and ammvery happy with it
My solar pannels were equiped with a regulator sob. When I changed that for a victron mppt I almost doubled the amps .
As to the monitor, some electrical engineer convinced me to instal this so I would always KNOW the soc of my batteries. Wel I got disappointed. I now realize that the monitor show the amps going in and out to perfection. It also shows the voltage at the batterie terminal. But as for soc it is guessing and I am using voltage to guess soc my selv.
Funny thing is that shown soc does not correspond with missing amps
Exempel. I have batteries 280 Ah. If my soc is 80%. Then my A count should be -56A. But it never is it can be all over the place
Looking at http://www.smartgauge.co.uk. That might be a better solution?
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #298920 is a reply to message #298916] |
Tue, 12 April 2016 08:09 |
mghamms
Messages: 466 Registered: March 2016 Location: Ware, Massachusetts
Karma: 2
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Same problem on my iPad.
appie wrote on Tue, 12 April 2016 02:50Jerry. Tried to see your presentation but got only the frontpage on my ipad?
As you I installed top brand stuff. As I am a dutchman I chose Victron and ammvery happy with it
My solar pannels were equiped with a regulator sob. When I changed that for a victron mppt I almost doubled the amps .
As to the monitor, some electrical engineer convinced me to instal this so I would always KNOW the soc of my batteries. Wel I got disappointed. I now realize that the monitor show the amps going in and out to perfection. It also shows the voltage at the batterie terminal. But as for soc it is guessing and I am using voltage to guess soc my selv.
Funny thing is that shown soc does not correspond with missing amps
Exempel. I have batteries 280 Ah. If my soc is 80%. Then my A count should be -56A. But it never is it can be all over the place
Looking at http://www.smartgauge.co.uk. That might be a better solution?
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #298923 is a reply to message #298916] |
Tue, 12 April 2016 09:39 |
Justin Brady
Messages: 769 Registered: April 2015 Location: Bell Buckle, TN
Karma: 11
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appie wrote on Tue, 12 April 2016 02:50Jerry. Tried to see your presentation but got only the frontpage on my ipad?
As you I installed top brand stuff. As I am a dutchman I chose Victron and ammvery happy with it
My solar pannels were equiped with a regulator sob. When I changed that for a victron mppt I almost doubled the amps .
As to the monitor, some electrical engineer convinced me to instal this so I would always KNOW the soc of my batteries. Wel I got disappointed. I now realize that the monitor show the amps going in and out to perfection. It also shows the voltage at the batterie terminal. But as for soc it is guessing and I am using voltage to guess soc my selv.
Funny thing is that shown soc does not correspond with missing amps
Exempel. I have batteries 280 Ah. If my soc is 80%. Then my A count should be -56A. But it never is it can be all over the place
Looking at http://www.smartgauge.co.uk. That might be a better solution?
Appie,
Which Victron do you have? BMV 600 or BMV 700?
There are a lot of settings that can be changed, battery amp hour, tail voltage, etc. It's set up out of the box for quick easy install not necessarily max accuracy.
Here's the manual verbiage for that problem:
For a reliable readout, the state of charge as displayed by the battery
monitor has to be synchronized regularly with the true state of charge of
the battery. This is accomplished by fully charging the battery.
In case of a 12V battery, the BMV resets to 'fully charged' when the
following 'charged parameters' are met: the voltage exceeds 13.2V and
simultaneously the (tail-) charge current is less than 4.0% of the total
battery capacity (e.g. 8A for a 200Ah battery) during 4 minutes.
The BMV can also be synchronized (i.e. set to 'battery fully charged')
manually if required. This can be achieved in normal operating mode by
holding the + and buttons simultaneously for 3 seconds, or in setup
mode by using the SYNC option (see section 4.2.1, setting number 10).
If the BMV does not synchronize automatically, the charged voltage, tail
current, and/or charged time may need adjustment.
When the voltage supply to the BMV has been interrupted, the battery
monitor must be resynchronized before it can operate correctly.
Justin Brady
http://www.thegmcrv.com/
1976 Palm Beach 455
[Updated on: Tue, 12 April 2016 09:43] Report message to a moderator
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #298927 is a reply to message #298923] |
Tue, 12 April 2016 09:51 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117 Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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On the iPad
Works on mine, you might need all the other crap
Try this
http://jerrywork.com/
On Tuesday, April 12, 2016, Justin Brady wrote:
> appie wrote on Tue, 12 April 2016 02:50
>> Jerry. Tried to see your presentation but got only the frontpage on my
> ipad?
>>
>> As you I installed top brand stuff. As I am a dutchman I chose Victron
> and ammvery happy with it
>> My solar pannels were equiped with a regulator sob. When I changed that
> for a victron mppt I almost doubled the amps .
>> As to the monitor, some electrical engineer convinced me to instal this
> so I would always KNOW the soc of my batteries. Wel I got disappointed. I
>> now realize that the monitor show the amps going in and out to
> perfection. It also shows the voltage at the batterie terminal. But as for
> soc it is
>> guessing and I am using voltage to guess soc my selv.
>> Funny thing is that shown soc does not correspond with missing amps
>> Exempel. I have batteries 280 Ah. If my soc is 80%. Then my A count
> should be -56A. But it never is it can be all over the place
>>
>>
>> Looking at http://www.smartgauge.co.uk. That might be a better solution?
>
>
> Appie,
> Which Victron do you have? BMV 600 or BMV 700?
> --
> Justin Brady
> http://www.thegmcrv.com/
> 1976 Palm Beach 455
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #298928 is a reply to message #298927] |
Tue, 12 April 2016 09:53 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117 Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Touch the gmc words , it is a link
On Tuesday, April 12, 2016, gene Fisher wrote:
> On the iPad
> Works on mine, you might need all the other crap
> Try this
> http://jerrywork.com/
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, April 12, 2016, Justin Brady > wrote:
>
>> appie wrote on Tue, 12 April 2016 02:50
>>> Jerry. Tried to see your presentation but got only the frontpage on my
>> ipad?
>>>
>>> As you I installed top brand stuff. As I am a dutchman I chose Victron
>> and ammvery happy with it
>>> My solar pannels were equiped with a regulator sob. When I changed
>> that for a victron mppt I almost doubled the amps .
>>> As to the monitor, some electrical engineer convinced me to instal this
>> so I would always KNOW the soc of my batteries. Wel I got disappointed. I
>>> now realize that the monitor show the amps going in and out to
>> perfection. It also shows the voltage at the batterie terminal. But as for
>> soc it is
>>> guessing and I am using voltage to guess soc my selv.
>>> Funny thing is that shown soc does not correspond with missing amps
>>> Exempel. I have batteries 280 Ah. If my soc is 80%. Then my A count
>> should be -56A. But it never is it can be all over the place
>>>
>>>
>>> Looking at http://www.smartgauge.co.uk. That might be a better
>> solution?
>>
>>
>> Appie,
>> Which Victron do you have? BMV 600 or BMV 700?
>> --
>> Justin Brady
>> http://www.thegmcrv.com/
>> 1976 Palm Beach 455
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #298943 is a reply to message #298923] |
Tue, 12 April 2016 12:30 |
appie
Messages: 902 Registered: April 2013 Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Yes Jerry. I read the manual, but even then. Btw it is a bm700. Problem is at (dis) charging rates differ under different conditions. The bm is still guessing the soc. Did you read the articles on smart gauge?
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #299092 is a reply to message #298909] |
Fri, 15 April 2016 16:58 |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409 Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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what is 8dAGM...I iknow AGM but the two I assume...8d???....thankls brian 77 ele 455
> From: glwork@mac.com
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 20:20:34 -0700
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries
>
> A while back I put together a presentation for several of the GMC club events talking about how to “Live Large in your GMC”. That is available for free download from the GMCWS, GMC Cascaders, perhaps other sites, and my own web site, http://jerrywork.com on the GMC page. That presentation was all about how to add enough battery capacity to your GMC to meet most all of your needs, which kinds of batteries to use, battery chargers/converters and battery monitors. It may be helpful to some.
>
> I learned through that experience and subsequent experiences with many different brands of converter/chargers, monitors, inverters, batteries, wire sizes/lengths etc. to be convinced that there are real differences not apparent by simply reading spec sheets. What I found was the things aimed at the boating crowd are generally better overall quality than things aimed at the RV crowd, but they are also more expensive. In the Royale, our long distance boogie monster coach, I evolved my selections to the upper end of the boating stuff for monitors, shunts, wire sizes and converter/chargers and to the industrial stuff for inverters and batteries. At the time, I found the larger 6vdc wet cell batteries provided the most cost effective and longest life but were also the heaviest. I had to do a bunch of rearranging of stuff in the Royale to accommodate four of them in the rear compartment where the propane tank is in GMC finished coaches without badly unbalancing the loads. The downside to that is maintenance and battery acid fumes. I learned to much prefer the AGM batteries even though they are 2x the price because I could put them anywhere - including inside living spaces -, and they require no maintenance. They also can be drawn down to 80% with the same charge cycle life of wet cell batteries being drawn down to 50%. That last remark seems to be controversial, but that is what engineers from the three largest AGM battery supplier insist is the case. Doing it again I would use two 8d AGM batteries from the high end companies even though they are more expensive than the four 6vdc wet cell batteries. I also in fairness must say that I have had no issue other than constant maintenance with the wet cell 6vdc batteries now after more than six or seven years of constant use.
>
> For monitors, I found Vitron and Blue Sea to be my choice over Xantrax and Tri-Metric, but all four of these are better than no monitor at all, no matter what you are using for battery technology. The biggest delta between brands came when I started experimenting with different inverters. Boy, what a difference! The industrial units are way, way better in every way from my experience than the heavily advertised consumer brands and beyond comprehension better than the blue light special “modified sine wave” units featured on popular cheap tool sites.
>
> The bottom line for me is that in our GMCs it is far better to do it right and pay for right once than to try to be guided largely by price on the false premise that “well I don’t use it enough to justify doing it right”. My POV anyway. Everyone needs to make that choice for themselves, but I think the correlation between how much you actually use your coach and how many times you have compromised “right” for “price” may be higher than you think. We drive our two GMCs at least 20,000 miles each year and love every minute of it.
>
> I am now off my soap box and back to getting ready for a fun, catch as catch can summer of exploring the north land. Rant off……..
>
> Jerry
> Jerry Work
> The Dovetail Joint
> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
>
> glwork@mac.com
> http://jerrywork.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #299118 is a reply to message #299093] |
Sat, 16 April 2016 09:27 |
JohnS
Messages: 126 Registered: December 2014 Location: Vacaville, CA
Karma: -2
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If one wants to use lead-acid golf cart batteries, I suggest installing Hydrocaps. These caps have a catalyst which returns the hydrogen & oxygen gases to the battery as water. In July it will be 8 years since I installed them in my 77 with a new pair of batteries. I keep pretty good records, and have only added a total of 2 ounces of water to each cell in that time. Also the tops and terminals of the batteries look like they did at install. (well, maybe a little dust on them!) Results have been such that I only check the water once a year now. Installed them on the stretch with new batteries in Sept of last year...$65.50 for six caps including shipping. Check out Hydrocapcorp.com. Sorry I do not know how to make that a link.
John Shutzbaugh, Vacaville, CA, ncserv@aol.com;
78 Buskirk stretch, "What were we thinking?"
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #299126 is a reply to message #299118] |
Sat, 16 April 2016 10:03 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117 Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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http://hydrocapcorp.com
On Saturday, April 16, 2016, John Shutzbaugh wrote:
> If one wants to use lead-acid golf cart batteries, I suggest installing
> Hydrocaps. These caps have a catalyst which returns the hydrogen & oxygen
> gases to the battery as water. In July it will be 8 years since I
> installed them in my 77 with a new pair of batteries. I keep pretty good
> records,
> and have only added a total of 2 ounces of water to each cell in that
> time. Also the tops and terminals of the batteries look like they did at
> install. (well, maybe a little dust on them!) Results have been such
> that I only check the water once a year now. Installed them on the stretch
> with new batteries in Sept of last year...$65.50 for six caps including
> shipping. Check out Hydrocapcorp.com. Sorry I do not know how to make
> that a
> link.
> --
> John Shutzbaugh, Vacaville, CA;
> 77 Eleganza, bought it new, can't blame PO, and
> 78 Buskirk stretch, "What were we thinking?"
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #299145 is a reply to message #299124] |
Sat, 16 April 2016 16:40 |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409 Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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Now I know ...thanks Matt....us$700....lb170...maybe on a 80 ft yacht...Brian 77 ele 455
> Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2016 09:07:08 -0600
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> From: matt7323tze@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries
>
> Brian Waddell wrote on Fri, 15 April 2016 17:58
>> what is 8dAGM...I iknow AGM but the two I assume...8d???....thankls brian 77 ele 455
>
> Brian,
>
> Justin was close, but he missed a little. An 8D is 21L * 11W * 9H and 170# but only about 250~260 AH.
> In AGM they are about 700$US. I can order them but never had may that were interested.
>
> Matt - Still in Columbia, this may be a non-driving day.
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> '73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
> Now with both true Keyless and remote entry
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #299147 is a reply to message #299124] |
Sat, 16 April 2016 17:26 |
Justin Brady
Messages: 769 Registered: April 2015 Location: Bell Buckle, TN
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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Matt Colie wrote on Sat, 16 April 2016 10:07Brian Waddell wrote on Fri, 15 April 2016 17:58what is 8dAGM...I iknow AGM but the two I assume...8d???....thankls brian 77 ele 455
Brian,
Justin was close, but he missed a little. An 8D is 21L * 11W * 9H and 170# but only about 250~260 AH.
In AGM they are about 700$US. I can order them but never had may that were interested.
Matt - Still in Columbia, this may be a non-driving day.
Correct. Not sure where the 400 came from!
Justin Brady
http://www.thegmcrv.com/
1976 Palm Beach 455
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Re: [GMCnet] On battery monitors, alternators and batteries [message #299286 is a reply to message #299124] |
Tue, 19 April 2016 14:37 |
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Matt Colie wrote on Sat, 16 April 2016 10:07Brian Waddell wrote on Fri, 15 April 2016 17:58what is 8dAGM...I iknow AGM but the two I assume...8d???....thankls brian 77 ele 455
Brian,
Justin was close, but he missed a little. An 8D is 21L * 11W * 9H and 170# but only about 250~260 AH.
In AGM they are about 700$US. I can order them but never had may that were interested.
Matt - Still in Columbia, this may be a non-driving day.
I bought a used Lifeline 8D on craigslist back in 2010. It finally gave up the funk last year and will be replacing it with 3 group 31 agms, I found brand new on craigs list. 8d batteries are great for capacity, but a real bitch to move since they weigh about 165 pounds!
73 Canyon Lands, (a.k.a. The Yellow Submarine) West Los Angeles CA
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