Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Brake question
| [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298526] |
Sat, 02 April 2016 22:59  |
Sara Robinson
Messages: 17
Registered: March 2016
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The reason the Engine got mothballed is that we got to a point where we could no longer trust her brakes. They went out on us twice — once on I-10 west of Tonopah, AZ at about 60 mph, the other time coming up California 1 on a windy road south of Half Moon Bay.
I was driving both times — and I never want to be that frightened in a vehicle ever again. (I fly airplanes, and am very hard to rattle. But the second time is what finally put me off driving the GMC.) No matter what we did, or how many different people we had work on various aspects of the braking system, they just kept failing. The main source of failure was in the lines, but it’s not good from the pedal right on back.
If we keep the coach, this will need to be fixed. If we sell it, we’d like to be able to present the next owner with a clear idea of how to handle this (and a sense of what it might cost to get it right). Fortunately, looking around the GMC sites, it appears that there are more and better options than were available when Jim installed that brake system back in 2002. I’m seeing the stainless steel brake line kit, devices to help bleed the lines, and other things that seem to promise a better experience than we’ve had.
So here’s the question: If you were looking to put the most bulletproof, dead-reliable braking system into your GMC, using today’s available parts, what would that look like? Assume that the entire system is up for renewal, and money is not an issue. We’re spit-balling here.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298528 is a reply to message #298526] |
Sat, 02 April 2016 23:54  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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You are going to get at least 5 different responses for improving the brakes.
I suggest that you start by fixing what is now broken. It sounds like you had one or several rusted through brake lines. If so, then get the kit of pre-bent steel lines and replace all of them.
Then look at replacing all of the brake hoses.
After that, you can look at upgrading various brake components if you want.
Jim K. At Applied GMC in California is a good resource for all or most of the parts you need to get a reliable brake system again, including the above mentioned lines and hoses.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298531 is a reply to message #298526] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 01:36 |
Steve Jess
Messages: 169
Registered: April 2012
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Just curious: was the proportioning valve replaced? That apparently was a problem on mine. Even when all the pads and shoes had been replaced the brakes were still defective because the proportioning valve was gummed up.
> From: sara@sararobinson.net
> Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 20:59:56 -0700
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] Brake question
>
> The reason the Engine got mothballed is that we got to a point where we could no longer trust her brakes. They went out on us twice — once on I-10 west of Tonopah, AZ at about 60 mph, the other time coming up California 1 on a windy road south of Half Moon Bay.
>
> I was driving both times — and I never want to be that frightened in a vehicle ever again. (I fly airplanes, and am very hard to rattle. But the second time is what finally put me off driving the GMC.) No matter what we did, or how many different people we had work on various aspects of the braking system, they just kept failing. The main source of failure was in the lines, but it’s not good from the pedal right on back.
>
> If we keep the coach, this will need to be fixed. If we sell it, we’d like to be able to present the next owner with a clear idea of how to handle this (and a sense of what it might cost to get it right). Fortunately, looking around the GMC sites, it appears that there are more and better options than were available when Jim installed that brake system back in 2002. I’m seeing the stainless steel brake line kit, devices to help bleed the lines, and other things that seem to promise a better experience than we’ve had.
>
> So here’s the question: If you were looking to put the most bulletproof, dead-reliable braking system into your GMC, using today’s available parts, what would that look like? Assume that the entire system is up for renewal, and money is not an issue. We’re spit-balling here.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298532 is a reply to message #298531] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 07:25 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Another vote for replacing the combination valve. If yours is still the iron OEM, it is likely to be fouled with rust. Mine would not move, even when removed from the vehicle and tapped with a persuader.
Tom, MS II
Off to Dothan.
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298534 is a reply to message #298526] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 07:31 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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Note, however, that there has been some failures with the new valves soon after installation. I know JimB had a couple.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298536 is a reply to message #298526] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 08:36 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Parts only. You can replace all brakes inwould say for $1500. From the pedal to the rear wheels, get new master, booster, lines, hoses, cylinders, shoes, pads and valve
These are coaches are old, But there is no reason it should be fail on stopping if everything is done right.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298538 is a reply to message #298526] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 08:38 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Sara,
Chuck Boyd and I just finished replacing the following components in the brake system on the Kingsley:
Booster
Master Cylinder
Stainless Steel Brake Lines
Brass Combination Valve
Braided Stainless Steel Flex Lines
Rear Wheel Cylinders
We did not replace the front calipers (80mm) as they worked fine.
I drove it yesterday afternoon and the brakes work PERFECTLY!
Regards,
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - No Name Yet TZE267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Sara Robinson
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 12:00 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Brake question
The reason the Engine got mothballed is that we got to a point where we could no longer trust her brakes. They went out on us twice
- once on I-10 west of Tonopah, AZ at about 60 mph, the other time coming up California 1 on a windy road south of Half Moon Bay.
I was driving both times - and I never want to be that frightened in a vehicle ever again. (I fly airplanes, and am very hard to
rattle. But the second time is what finally put me off driving the GMC.) No matter what we did, or how many different people we had
work on various aspects of the braking system, they just kept failing. The main source of failure was in the lines, but it's not
good from the pedal right on back.
If we keep the coach, this will need to be fixed. If we sell it, we'd like to be able to present the next owner with a clear idea of
how to handle this (and a sense of what it might cost to get it right). Fortunately, looking around the GMC sites, it appears that
there are more and better options than were available when Jim installed that brake system back in 2002. I'm seeing the stainless
steel brake line kit, devices to help bleed the lines, and other things that seem to promise a better experience than we've had.
So here's the question: If you were looking to put the most bulletproof, dead-reliable braking system into your GMC, using today's
available parts, what would that look like? Assume that the entire system is up for renewal, and money is not an issue. We're
spit-balling here.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298540 is a reply to message #298526] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 09:57 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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Senior Member |
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Sara Robinson wrote on Sat, 02 April 2016 22:59...If you were looking to put the most bulletproof, dead-reliable braking system into your GMC, using today's available parts, what would that look like? ...money is not an issue. ... Replace all the lines, both solid and flexible. As Jim Hupy says, try to fix the combination valve, fail, and replace it with a new one. Replace master cylinder and booster IF THEY NEED TO BE REPLACED (new might not be any better than old OEM). And the coop dee grass, wider shoes and larger rear wheel cylinders from Tom Hampton, and reaction arm for drum brakes from Jim K.
http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/images/Parts%20For%20Sale/betterbrakes.jpg
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1285
If your state law does not require or enforce the law for a parking brake, rear disk brakes with reaction arm:
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1188
Or a hybrid set that is half and half (supposedly half of the rear wheels with drums/parking brake will work for a parking brake):
http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1510
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298543 is a reply to message #298540] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 10:17 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Sara, if you want some solid advice about braking systems and what works,
call Jim K. and talk to him. It is a toll free call. Or you can drive down
to Salem and talk to me face to face. Might even feed you a meal or share a
beverage. I have some braking systems in stock that I can show you to help
you make up your mind. Just a suggestion. I am not trying to drum up any
work, as I am still in cardio rehab for a couple of weeks at least.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 7:57 AM, A. wrote:
> Sara Robinson wrote on Sat, 02 April 2016 22:59
>> ...If you were looking to put the most bulletproof, dead-reliable
> braking system into your GMC, using today's available parts, what would that
>> look like? ...money is not an issue. ...
> Replace all the lines, both solid and flexible. As Jim Hupy says, try to
> fix the combination valve, fail, and replace it with a new one. Replace
> master cylinder and booster IF THEY NEED TO BE REPLACED (new might not be
> any better than old OEM). And the coop dee grass, wider shoes and larger
> rear wheel cylinders from Tom Hampton, and reaction arm for drum brakes
> from Jim K.
>
>
> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/images/Parts%20For%20Sale/betterbrakes.jpg
> http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1285
>
> If your state law does not require or enforce the law for a parking brake,
> rear disk brakes with reaction arm:
>
> http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1188
>
> Or a hybrid set that is half and half (supposedly half of the rear wheels
> with drums/parking brake will work for a parking brake):
>
> http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1510
> --
> '73 23' Sequoia For Sale
> '73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit For Sale
> Upper Alabama
> Why don't they sell spray paint that washes off with soap and water for
> graffiti vandals to use?
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298547 is a reply to message #298543] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 13:07 |
Sara Robinson
Messages: 17
Registered: March 2016
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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Jim, I’d be delighted to take you up on that offer. Let’s plan to meet up in May, when you’re feeling better.
It’s been long enough since Jim Bounds rebuilt this system that I’m not even sure what we have in it. I’m pretty sure we added proportional spacers, and there may be a hydro-boost in there somewhere.
Having someone who actually knows GMC braking systems take a look at it would be well worth it. We’ll buy the meal, and probably give you the work, too.
> On Apr 3, 2016, at 8:17 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>
> Sara, if you want some solid advice about braking systems and what works,
> call Jim K. and talk to him. It is a toll free call. Or you can drive down
> to Salem and talk to me face to face. Might even feed you a meal or share a
> beverage. I have some braking systems in stock that I can show you to help
> you make up your mind. Just a suggestion. I am not trying to drum up any
> work, as I am still in cardio rehab for a couple of weeks at least.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, OR
> 78 GMC Royale 403
>
> On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 7:57 AM, A. wrote:
>
>> Sara Robinson wrote on Sat, 02 April 2016 22:59
>>> ...If you were looking to put the most bulletproof, dead-reliable
>> braking system into your GMC, using today's available parts, what would that
>>> look like? ...money is not an issue. ...
>> Replace all the lines, both solid and flexible. As Jim Hupy says, try to
>> fix the combination valve, fail, and replace it with a new one. Replace
>> master cylinder and booster IF THEY NEED TO BE REPLACED (new might not be
>> any better than old OEM). And the coop dee grass, wider shoes and larger
>> rear wheel cylinders from Tom Hampton, and reaction arm for drum brakes
>> from Jim K.
>>
>>
>> http://www.grandviewmotorhome.com/images/Parts%20For%20Sale/betterbrakes.jpg
>> http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1285
>>
>> If your state law does not require or enforce the law for a parking brake,
>> rear disk brakes with reaction arm:
>>
>> http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1188
>>
>> Or a hybrid set that is half and half (supposedly half of the rear wheels
>> with drums/parking brake will work for a parking brake):
>>
>> http://www.appliedgmc.com/prod.itml/icOid/1510
>> --
>> '73 23' Sequoia For Sale
>> '73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit For Sale
>> Upper Alabama
>> Why don't they sell spray paint that washes off with soap and water for
>> graffiti vandals to use?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298566 is a reply to message #298547] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 18:35 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Sara,
I'm late to the party, and you've wound up on the right track anyway, but I
want to reinforce your plan: When Jim Hupy is up to it, have him go
through the suspension from front to rear: 1-Ton front end; "Manny Brakes"
rear reaction arm system; SS brake lines and flex lines; Hydroboost; and
34mm MC; and, new proportioning valve.
That's assuming you can get by without a parking brake. If you can't, I'd
suggest all of the above except use Applied GMC's reaction arms for drum
brakes at the rear 2 wheels, using Albert Branscombe's SS brake cables
(probably with booster).
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com
>> Sara Robinson wrote on Sat, 02 April 2016 22:59
>>>> ...If you were looking to put the most bulletproof, dead-reliable
>>> braking system into your GMC, using today's available parts, what would
> that
>>>> look like? ...money is not an issue. ...
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298595 is a reply to message #298526] |
Mon, 04 April 2016 09:17 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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"I was driving both times -- and I never want to be that frightened in a vehicle ever again. (I fly airplanes, and am very hard to rattle. But the second time is what finally put me off driving the GMC.)"
You've good advice in this thread, I'll add a bit to the above. If you approach the GMC experience the way you were (hopefully) taught to fly, you'll get the same result. Remember, physically driving the airplane through the air is much easier than driving anything down the road - the bulk of the training is to cover the 'what ifs'. Play the same game as "Where will I land if it quits?" and "What will I do if soandso happens?" It's already settled in your mind, all you have to do is act. "Where will I stop if the brakes were to fail?", "Where will I put it if the engine quits?" etc. And, if you give your coach the same preflight and annual care, you'll forestall the bulk of the problems people have.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Brake question [message #298608 is a reply to message #298595] |
Mon, 04 April 2016 14:00 |
Sara Robinson
Messages: 17
Registered: March 2016
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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It’s a good way to think about it — and it’s even possible I took well to flying because I’d already developed an attenuated sense of caution about taking off in the GMC. Covering large distances in complex, fussy machinery was something I already felt pretty competent to do.
I’ve often told people that flying small planes offers you a thousand stupid ways to die -- and about 70% of flight training is about learning how to avoid or deal with them, one by one. So is the entire preflight process. I do my walkaround and checklist with this in mind, a meditation with the mantra that reinforces the stakes: “An oil leak will not kill me today. A busted alternator belt will not kill me today. A disintegrating prop will not kill me today. A blocked pitot tube will not kill me today….” With good observation and planning, you can eliminate about 900 of those thousand ways, reducing your overall risk to a level where it’s worth taking.
We’re young retirees now, at a stage where very long trips (by both air and land) are starting to eat up more of our lives. For 7100-mile, 7-week epic wanders like the one we just completed in our car, we’d like to be able to drive at a somewhat lower level of vigilance. ; ) And we’re ready for something much, much smaller (and more fuel-efficient) now that there are just two of us and a dog. As soon as the taxes are done this week, we’ll start shopping for a tiny Pleasure-Way van conversion — the one built on the smallest Mercedes Sprinter chassis. We’re stepping down in search of reliability, efficiency, and nimbleness. For the kind of trips we’re taking, we don’t really need a full-sized RV; we need a glorified road-trip car that happens to have a wet bath, minimal galley, and a bed — and gets 22 mpg on average, and is easy to park downtown.
Between that and a Cirrus, we figure we can get to wherever we want to go. The GMC is about another kind of travel entirely, though. We’re still deciding how much of that kind of travel figures into our plans. If it does, more than a couple times a year, it’ll be worth it to keep her.
> On Apr 4, 2016, at 7:17 AM, Johnny Bridges via Gmclist wrote:
>
> "I was driving both times -- and I never want to be that frightened in a vehicle ever again. (I fly airplanes, and am very hard to rattle. But the
> second time is what finally put me off driving the GMC.)"
>
> You've good advice in this thread, I'll add a bit to the above. If you approach the GMC experience the way you were (hopefully) taught to fly, you'll
> get the same result. Remember, physically driving the airplane through the air is much easier than driving anything down the road - the bulk of the
> training is to cover the 'what ifs'. Play the same game as "Where will I land if it quits?" and "What will I do if soandso happens?" It's already
> settled in your mind, all you have to do is act. "Where will I stop if the brakes were to fail?", "Where will I put it if the engine quits?" etc.
> And, if you give your coach the same preflight and annual care, you'll forestall the bulk of the problems people have.
>
> --johnny
>
> --
> '76 23' transmode Norris upfit
> Braselton, Ga.
>
> "Sometimes I wonder what tomorrow's gonna bring when I think about my dirty life and times" --Warren Zevon
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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