Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Restoration. Dry chemical fire extinguisher's need serviced in RV's
| [GMCnet] Restoration. Dry chemical fire extinguisher's need serviced in RV's [message #298471] |
Sat, 02 April 2016 01:28  |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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Was thinking where to mount the ones inside. Made me think of how many people have them. And there never serviced. When there mounted in RV's. There exposed to vibration all the time. This causes the chemical powder to settle into a mass that can't be expelled if the extinguisher is needed. Sort of like a bag of flour, or sugar after a period of time. It's why I have to have all the extinguisher's at our commercial building serviced by a licensed extinguisher company. And every 5 years they have to be dismantled. And recharged. It's simple to avoid that problem with our units in our GMC's. Flip it upside down. Use a hammer to tap on the bottom. Then shake for about 3 minutes. By then the dry chemical is fluffed up. And ready for service. And get yourself in the habit of checking the gauge before each trip. ( Disclaimer ) Have a licensed service provider do it. Bob Dunahugh
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| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Dry chemical fire extinguisher's need serviced in RV's [message #298478 is a reply to message #298471] |
Sat, 02 April 2016 08:04  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Bob,
The following are comments regarding fire extinguishers from the document below:
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Mueller_GMCer-Fire-Guide.pdf
FIRE EXTINGUISHERS TYPES AND COMMENTS
GAS
Gas extinguishers are good for instant suppressants, but hot metal can reignite that fuel.
The problem with gas type extinguishers, besides being non-environment friendly, is they need
to fill a space to work longer than the minute or so that the gas blast can sustain. In most cases
the fire is started because the metal is hot and the fuel or oil ignited from the heat. The gas does
nothing to cool this.
CO2
Gas (CO2 and Halon) works by starving the fire for oxygen. In an open space, the oxygen
returns quickly. It was used in closed computer rooms because it would not ruin the electronics
the way dry chemicals or water would. In computer rooms, it comes with a warning before it
deploys--starving the fire for oxygen also starves people for oxygen.
HALON
Halon (including Halon 1211 and Halon 1301), is a gaseous agent that inhibits the chemical
reaction of the fire. Classes B&C for lower weight fire extinguishers (2.3 kg; under 9 lbs) and
A:B:C for heavier weights (4.1-7.7 kg; 9-;17 lbs). It was banned from new production, except for
military use, as of January 1, 1994 as its properties contribute to ozone depletion and long
atmospheric lifetime, usually 400 years. Halon was completely banned in Europe and in
Australia as well.
FOAM
AFFF is an organic, non-toxic, non-corrosive, water-based, hi-tech fire retardant recognized and
used because of its qualities by the aircraft, military, marine, and professional, commercial
community.
AFFF sounds like the best fire retardant. But, as it is currently understood, AFFF may have an
issue with colder temperatures. It is not definitely known if there is a solution for GMCers who
live where it freezes. However, the following paragraph may explain the situation adequately.
AFFF is a water-based liquid so yes, it will freeze but the cold does not effect the nitrogen
propellant as much as an air propellant so as the cylinder heats up from the fire and thaws the
AFFF. When 286° F is reached, the cylinder will deploy and the AFFF goes right back to its fire
fighting liquid state. So yes, its OK to let it freeze because it will come back good as new.
Foams may work if they can extinguish and cool the metal before the foam falls off the fire
location. Foam is excellent on a fuel fire because it does not flow and the burning fuel cant float through
it.
Foam is best, but you do have to remove it in the winter. The freezing point is not the problem, as
it is understood, but rather the temperatures closer to the single digits (Fahrenheit) are.
DRY CHEMICAL
Dry chemical will always be followed up by water, and thus it will always cause corrosion
damage. But its better than nothing. As long, that is, as the chemical hasnt solidified in the
bottom of the extinguisher tank.
I have repaired several early 70s VW busses that had engine compartment fires that were
extinguished with dry chemicals. What a big mess it turned into. Minor fires that look to be
simple to repair turn into wiring harness wild-goose chases, bearing failures in alternators and
generators, carbs literally eaten up by the effects of dry chemical and water, etc.
You need to look at the damage caused by dry chemical fire extinguishers. Everything, and I
mean everything, that came close to being contacted with the dry chemical was destroyed. The
only thing I reused was the headers and they were full of deep pits.
SODIUM BICARBONATE (dry chemical variant)
America's Test Kitchen tested fire extinguishers and chose the Kidde FX10K (available at Lowes
or Home Depot) as the best. It is baking soda and not the typical dry chemical variety. So after
the fire is out, you clean up the kitchen without damage to the tools/skillet/range, etc. It is not
destructive like other dry chemical extinguishers. See the following link for additional info on
this extinguisher
http://www.kidde.com/Documents/kitchen%20fire%20extinguisher%20(secondary%20protection).pdf
or see the reference at made about Americas Test Kitchen
http://www.cooksillustrated.com/equipment/overview.asp?docid=21526&Extcode=N00PGN000
According to Kidde, the self-extinguishing agent (which is rated 10-B:C) is a non-toxic, sodium
bicarbonate powder which is electrically non-conductive. It is much easier to clean up after
having been used in an emergency issue in a kitchen.
Other than having to vacuum up or clean up the powder the only other down side to the FZ10K
is that its not quite as effective at putting out the fire when compared to other dry chemical
types. It was noted by a GMC owner that hed use the baking soda extinguisher over the other
type of dry powder any day. He had too much damage to deal after a fire when using a
different dry powder extinguisher.
WATER
Water on a fuel fire is not a good idea, unless you can really bury it in water. In one owners
case, water carried the burning fuel to other parts under the coach.
A water spray/fog system would both put out the fire and cool the metal. Foam is intended to
be sprayed over a fuel pool on the ground to cover it and extinguish it. With a typical small
extinguisher supply, your aim will have to be pretty accurate because you will be out of
extinguishant product pretty fast and if the metal does not cool enough to prevent re-ignition,
the flame will come back.
Question: The coach carries a 30 gallon tank; would it be worth a hookup to a fogger or sprayer
under the hood? Response: Even a hose would be helpful and 30 gallons will last a lot longer
then the 20 second spurt of the fire extinguisher. Of course an automated fogger/spray would
be best. By the time you think about what has to be done, it is already being done.
GENERAL
Hand held fire extinguishers should be located where they can be readily accessible.
Dry chemical will keep the fire out from your stove, genset, wheel well you must keep a
portable fire suppressant. Otherwise you may be fixing one problem while creating a new one.
If you dont suppress the fire in its infancy with non-corrosive, fire fighting agents, you are in
for a long, hard road. I have seen first-hand what Halon, and CO2 and fire fighting foam can do
and I have repaired damage from dry chemical. I will take door No. 1, 2, or 3 and leave the dry
chemical to life saving purposes only.
For more information on fire extinguishers refer to the following website.
http://www.fire-extinguisher101.com/
Rob M.
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2016 2:28 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Restoration. Dry chemical fire extinguisher's needserviced in RV's
Was thinking where to mount the ones inside. Made me think of how many people have them. And there never serviced. When there
mounted in RV's. There exposed to vibration all the time. This causes the chemical powder to settle into a mass that can't be
expelled if the extinguisher is needed. Sort of like a bag of flour, or sugar after a period of time. It's why I have to have all
the extinguisher's at our commercial building serviced by a licensed extinguisher company. And every 5 years they have to be
dismantled. And recharged. It's simple to avoid that problem with our units in our GMC's. Flip it upside down. Use a hammer to tap
on the bottom. Then shake for about 3 minutes. By then the dry chemical is fluffed up. And ready for service. And get yourself in
the habit of checking the gauge before each trip. ( Disclaimer ) Have a licensed service provider do it. Bob Dunahugh
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Dry chemical fire extinguisher's need serviced in RV's [message #298491 is a reply to message #298490] |
Sat, 02 April 2016 11:43 |
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Google is your friend, Mac.
On Apr 2, 2016 11:41 AM, "D C _Mac_ Macdonald" wrote:
> When somebody says to go to "such and such" website,
> the advice is not of much use if the URL is not cited!
>
> Just sayin', doncha know?
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> ~ ~ Since 30 November '53 ~ ~
> ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> ~ Member GMCMI and Classics ~
> ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
> ~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
> ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ______________
> |[ ]~~~[][ ][]\
> "--OO--[]---O-"
>
>
>
>> Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2016 10:21:51 -0600
>> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Dry chemical fire extinguisher's
> need serviced in RV's
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Before you do any thing, go to MAC the Fire Guy's web site,
>> look it over and then please give him a call. He and I read
>> your post this morning and there is a lot of questions that have to be
>> answered to protect Linda.
>>
>> I wish you were going to be at Dothan as he will be giving a fire safety
>> talk and demo that is right up your alley.
>>
>> Please call him.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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bdub
bdub.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Dry chemical fire extinguisher's need serviced in RV's [message #298501 is a reply to message #298471] |
Sat, 02 April 2016 13:16 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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The title of this topic should have been
"DRY CHEMICAL FIRE EXTINGUISHERS in your coach NEED TO BE THROWN OUT."
and replaced with "AR-AFFF foam fire extinguishers.
If you ever have had to clean up and repair the damage from Dry Chem, then you will never use one in your coach again.
After my fire I had to repair and replace almost every thing that the dry chemical touched. Every electrical connection had to be taken apart and the contacts replaced. almost every wire had to be replaced. My exhaust system (headers primarily) are still badly pitted because I did not replace them. Stop by my coach sometime at a rally and I'll show you them. I think I had as much damage the dry chemical as I did from the fire. I know I had more labor time involved repairing the damage from the Dry Chem than I did from the actual fire.
Do NOT use Dry Chemical fire extinguishes unless nothing else is available. I must say that I have never tried or seen a Sodium Bicarbonate Dry Chemical extinguisher. So the above does not apply to them.
The other thing I would never use is bubble wrap insulation (Reflectix) in a coach. If you are insulating, get MicroFoil as it will not accelerate the fire like Reflectix does. I had MicroFoil on my hatch cover and it survived my engine fire very well. If you doubt this take a match to a sample piece of Reflectix and then do the same to a sample piece of MicoFoil.
You can have the soap box back now.
Here are 49 pictures that you can browse through. I wish I had known about AR-AFFF before the fire. I did all of the repair work and it still cost the insurance company just under $10,000 to repair it.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g4521-engine-fire.html
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
[Updated on: Sat, 02 April 2016 15:08] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Dry chemical fire extinguisher's need serviced in RV's [message #298522 is a reply to message #298509] |
Sat, 02 April 2016 21:56 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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That is about the freezing numbers that I have seen for freezing levels.
At the airport we have trucks that mix it on the spot. Our airport fire department is a sub-station of the local fire department and serves both the airport and normal structure and vehicle fires. We have three different mix levels. 0% for structures and fields, 3% (AFFF) for aircraft only because the FAA requires it, (Also aircraft never use ethanol diluted fuel), and 6% AR-AFFF for vehicle fires due to the prevalence of E10 fuel these days. The stuff they mix in in is cheap and they would use AR-AFFF (6%) but to keep the FAA happy they do still have 3% available.
Freezing is never an issue because the trucks are stored indoors and will not freeze on the short trip to a fire.
They ran a local fire academy on the airport for about two weeks a few years back and brought in firefighters from departments for about 150 miles around. It was interesting to watch them. The demonstration / training on extinguishing E10 fires was interesting to watch. The difference between AFFF (3%) and AR-AFFF (6%) was remarkable. Both put out the fire but the AR-AFFF stuff was much quicker and much easier to do. 10% ethanol is the most you are suppose to use AFFF on.
Matt, I carry 3 AR-AFFF portable extinguishers. Two Inside and one stored in the propane cabinet. I forget the size but they are the normal portable size ones of about 6" in diameter and 2 feet long. I think they are 5 lb. ones. I also have one CO2 extinguisher of the same size. Mine were made by Kidde. As far as freezing goes, the ones stored inside the coach will not freeze unless you are not using the coach. If you aren't using the coach then move the extinguishers inside a heated building.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Dry chemical fire extinguisher's need serviced in RV's [message #298535 is a reply to message #298522] |
Sun, 03 April 2016 07:33 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Interesting comment on level used for different grades of fuel. With E-85 attempting to be forced down our gas tanks, what will they use? Prayer might not work.
I do carry several fire extinguishers, but my goal is to get out of the coach with wife and pets intact. I can get another coach easily, but wife is irreplaceable. 46 years last month, I hope she will keep me. LOL
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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