Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Converter Charger (How to Troubleshoot)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Converter Charger [message #296064 is a reply to message #296063] |
Tue, 23 February 2016 20:25   |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Jerry,
Unless I've missed it on your posts, you haven't told us where you're
located. From your questions, it would probably be VERY useful for you to
spend at least a couple of hours with an experienced GMCer. If your
signature block included your coach year and model with any unique
features, plus at least a city, we'd have a better chance of finding
someone to act as a "mentor" for you.
As for your current question, I'm curious as to why you're plugging into an
inverter+battery instead of a 120 vac "shore power" source? Beyond that,
there are a number of possible reasons for your missing voltages, but you
run the risk, by applying abnormal voltages a random locations, of
unintentionally doing serious damage to something. Do you have the wiring
diagrams for your coach? If not, we need to get some to you -- trying to
do 'most anything without them is risky & time-wasting.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:08 PM, jerry wrote:
> I plugged the motorhome (23' 1973 Canyonlands 230) into a 1200 watt
> inverter connected to a fresh 12v Duralast battery. I get AC current at the
> dinette and the ceiling but not the kitchen. No DC to the interior. I
> also get no DC power to the coach lights, control panel etc from the 2
> batteries in the engine compartment (I am assuming one is for the engine
> and one for the coach) even with the motor running. I can get the lights
> and
> water pump running by connecting a 12v battery pack to the fuse box. Onan
> generator does not work and I have given up trying to repair it. :cry: Is
> this the converter/charger or what? Thanks.
>
> _______________________________________________
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Converter Charger [message #296068 is a reply to message #296063] |
Tue, 23 February 2016 21:20 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I am a little confused as to what he is doing. It sounds to me that he is powering the shore power cable with a 12 volt battery and inverter rather than plugging it in to 240 volt 50 amp shore power. If so I'll bet that he is only powering 1/2 of the circuit breaker panel. He probably needs a 240 volt 50 amp to 120 volt 30 or 15 amp adapter to power both sides of the CB box.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Converter Charger [message #296071 is a reply to message #296068] |
Tue, 23 February 2016 21:31 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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As good a guess as any. :-) Wish we could lay eyes on it.
Ken H.
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
> I am a little confused as to what he is doing. It sounds to me that he
> is powering the shore power cable with a 12 volt battery and inverter rather
> than plugging it in to 240 volt 50 amp shore power. If so I'll bet that
> he is only powering 1/2 of the circuit breaker panel. He probably needs a
> 240 volt 50 amp to 120 volt 30 or 15 amp adapter to power both sides of
> the CB box.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Converter Charger [message #296074 is a reply to message #296070] |
Wed, 24 February 2016 00:59 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Since that is the way it came from the factory (240 Ac on a 50 amp plug), I am assuming that he is applying power to the shore power cord and only has 1//2 of it powered. I haven't seen anything in his posting stating that it is wired differently. As Colonel Ken says we need more information.
James Hupy wrote on Tue, 23 February 2016 21:28Ah huh, are you sure that you want to plug a GMC into a 240 volt circuit?
Especially if it has a non stock electrical system? Just Wondering?
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Feb 23, 2016 7:21 PM, "Ken Burton" wrote:
> I am a little confused as to what he is doing. It sounds to me that he
> is powering the shore power cable with a 12 volt battery and inverter rather
> than plugging it in to 240 volt 50 amp shore power. If so I'll bet that
> he is only powering 1/2 of the circuit breaker panel. He probably needs a
> 240 volt 50 amp to 120 volt 30 or 15 amp adapter to power both sides of
> the CB box.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Converter Charger [message #296087 is a reply to message #296063] |
Wed, 24 February 2016 08:25 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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OK Jerry,
Have you downloaded the wiring diagrams yet? You really should.
The Onans are very stout machines. Try are simple to repair and maintain, but regular maintenance is a MUST. Get it running. You will probably need to replace the fuel lines as they have certainly will need it if they have not been.
The lack of AC power in places that it should be is strange. That is, unless you were not powering the entire coach with the inverter. Did you have a 6/15 to 14/50 adapter (what sometimes gets called a 20 to 50 amp adapter) or did you gin something up? In either case, it sounds like you don't have both sides of the AC powered. Do yourself a big favor. Power the coach down get a screwdriver and a flashlight and go into the breaker box and try to tighter every screw you can find. I have to do this about once a year or things get flaky.
If you are going to be in living non-FHU places at all, get or make a three battery tray for the front and make the house bank to be two each golf cart batteries.
The house DC obviously works, but if either the shore power through the converter or engine power through the isolator brings it up, those are problems that should be corrected.
Speak of which, the installed convert was the best there was in the day. That day was over 40 years ago. If it is still a big gray box, haul it out. If it isn't dead, it will destroy your house battery if left connected. And what ever is there will have a hard time recharging the house bank because there just is not enough copper to do it right. (And to make it right will take A LOT of copper.)
Again, Please build and use a sigfile as recommend. Do this in Control Panel/Account Settings. Scroll down and fill it in and scroll down more to more to "update".
Please include a complete name, your screen name will do you no good when you get to a rally and you should do that as soon as one is in striking range. A bit about the coach so others know what you are dealing with. (Please take the word of another 73-23, this is the strange one of the clan.) A geographic reference is good because the half of the community that does not work the forum reads this as e-mail and does not see your header.
Keep at it Jerry, it is worth doing.
Matt
mechanic007 wrote on Tue, 23 February 2016 21:08I plugged the motorhome (23' 1973 Canyonlands 230) into a 1200 watt inverter connected to a fresh 12v Duralast battery. I get AC current at the dinette and the ceiling but not the kitchen. No DC to the interior. I also get no DC power to the coach lights, control panel etc from the 2 batteries in the engine compartment (I am assuming one is for the engine and one for the coach) even with the motor running. I can get the lights and water pump running by connecting a 12v battery pack to the fuse box. Onan generator does not work and I have given up trying to repair it.  Is this the converter/charger or what? Thanks.
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Converter Charger [message #296662 is a reply to message #296655] |
Thu, 03 March 2016 20:16 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Jerry,
I'm going to tell you my GUESS about the cables under the dinette seat,
then I'm going to brutally honest with you:
My GUESS: The two cables were probably installed to connect a large
inverter (probably larger than your 1200 watt) to the battery. That's an
educated guess.
Brutal honesty: If you don't know immediately how to determine where those
wires are connected, and guess why they're there, you definitely need help
from someone with more experience.
Seriously, right now you're concerned with 12 VDC circuits which are
relatively innocuous, but can still be the source of a serious short and
consequent fire -- especially with those large wires "laying loose". When
you start fooling with the 120 vac circuits, you're risking more than that
-- potentially life-threatening shocks. Don't try to learn to deal with
all that without more knowledge than you've recited here.
Sorry if you find this offensive, but I'm concerned about you. There are a
lot of knowledgeable GMCers near you -- reach out for their help.
JMHO,
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 8:46 PM, jerry wrote:
> Thanks for all of your kind replies.
>
> I am trying to power the interior by using a 12v battery attached to a
> 1200 watt inverter for the situation when there is no shore AC power. I
> have
> given up on the Onan which I find too noisy even if I could get it running.
>
> Another point: there are two heavy gauge (thickness of a battery cable)
> cables lying loose under the seat of the dinette behind the driver's seat.
> Each with a copper end with a large hole. They are live when there is a
> 12v battery under the hood. One positive, one negative. Any idea what they
> are for or how they should be connected? Also I get no power to the
> control panel or monitor in the hallway. Yes, I am in Venice, CA. Sunny
> and
> warm ;) :d
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Converter Charger [message #296690 is a reply to message #296655] |
Fri, 04 March 2016 09:18 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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mechanic007 wrote on Tue, 23 February 2016 21:08I plugged the motorhome (23' 1973 Canyonlands 230) into a 1200 watt inverter connected to a fresh 12v Duralast battery. I get AC current at the dinette and the ceiling but not the kitchen. No DC to the interior. I also get no DC power to the coach lights, control panel etc from the 2 batteries in the engine compartment (I am assuming one is for the engine and one for the coach) even with the motor running. I can get the lights and water pump running by connecting a 12v battery pack to the fuse box. Onan generator does not work and I have given up trying to repair it. Is this the converter/charger or what? Thanks.
mechanic007 wrote on Thu, 03 March 2016 20:46Thanks for all of your kind replies.
I am trying to power the interior by using a 12v battery attached to a 1200 watt inverter for the situation when there is no shore AC power. I have given up on the Onan which I find too noisy even if I could get it running.
Another point: there are two heavy gauge (thickness of a battery cable) cables lying loose under the seat of the dinette behind the driver's seat. Each with a copper end with a large hole. They are live when there is a 12v battery under the hood. One positive, one negative. Any idea what they are for or how they should be connected? Also I get no power to the control panel or monitor in the hallway. Yes, I am in Venice, CA. Sunny and warm  
Jerry,
You happen to have another 73-23 here.... The 73&4 23s were special animals and there are some confounding differences between those and all others.
First Question; By "fuse box" do you mean the 12v house panel in the cabinet under the drawers? That should be in the same place as the 120VAC breaker panel, a switch for the water heater and the outlet for the existing converter. (Check?) If yes, we are good, but I have still have to ask where you put the ground of you battery pack. The only good one is the skin frame in the back of that space.
Second question: Did the PO (Previous Owner) put a second battery tray in the left (driver's side) front? This was a common mod to add house bank. If he did not, then those cables (at least the hot (+))will have to run across the coach to the house bank under the right side floor. It would be my guess that you should be able to find these by opening the engine hatch and looking/feeling as the best route is through that area.
Third question: Have you found where the heavy hot cable under the dinette front goes? Please do so and disconnect it as it is a dangerous fire and/or battery explosion risk.
Question Four: What do you hope to power with a 1200watt inverter? There is very little in a stock coach that runs on 120VAC, and none of those should be run with an inverter unless a lot of other things have been done.
Question Five: Is the stock converter still in place? This was installed in that same electrical cabinet. It is a huge and heavy gray box. If it is still there, you might as well remove it and replace it with something newer than flint-lock technology. It was a good device in its day - forty years ago.
Question Six (and last): How are you feeding your inverter back into the house 120V? There is only one safe way to do this and it would be massively inconvenient. but you can feed part of the system safely with some added parts.
In a stock 73-23 there are only three things that have to have 120VAC to run: The Roof A/V (can be 1500 watts), the Water Heater (750 Watts stock) and the Converter
(~500Watts on a low battery). Most originally had a AC/DC reefer. So run that on DC. I think of why you would try to run any of those on an inverter. If PO installed a microwave and it remains, that would be a reason for a big inverter, but that will also require serious battery.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Converter Charger [message #296696 is a reply to message #296063] |
Fri, 04 March 2016 09:53 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Oye. Never heard this scenario you have presented before. You need to get all systems working properly in a normal configuration before trying to run off an inverter. My armchair guess is that the inverter is not true sine wave, more like square wave and that the 12V convertor is not powering up as it is trying to protect itself, hence no 12V to the coach. Even if you have the OEM convertor by Triad corp (buzz box) that may not work on invertor square wave source power as it is a unique sine wave resonant type circuit.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Converter Charger [message #296699 is a reply to message #296063] |
Fri, 04 March 2016 11:10 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Jerry, it's less than 60 miles over to MGM-GMC in Ontario, straight down I 10. Whyncha buzz your coach over there and let Miguel figure it out for you. A couple hours of his time and fifteen gallons of gas is way cheaper than setting the coach on fire or ruining something inside it. And before you go, how's to tape up the two heavy cables under the dinette? It will save you grief later.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Converter Charger [message #297228 is a reply to message #296063] |
Sat, 12 March 2016 21:09 |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Hi,
Trying to power a space heat on an inverter is not a viable solution.
Let me take you though the math... you say you have one "fresh" duralast battery. I'm going to assume that is a 100 Amp/hr battery fully charged. The 100 Amp/ hour rating is based on a current draw of 5 amps over 20 hour. I'll assume your low power setting on the 1500 watt heater is 1/2 power (750 watts). At at a nominal 12 volts (under load) that's 62.5 amps (round up to 65). The inverter is maybe 85% efficient, but more like 80% so that's now 82 amps.
So at 82 Amps, your 100 Amp/hr battery may only be able to deliver 50-60% of its rated capacity so lets say best case 60% = 60 Amp/hrs .... but you don't want to go below 50% as that really shortens you battery life so now you only have 30Amp/hrs. So you can expect to run you heater at low power for 30/82 = 0.36hrs x 60 = 22 minutes.
But in real life your inverter will shut-down when it sees under 10.5 volts or so. You will likely lose 0.5 volts in your heavy wiring and connectors, plus maybe another 0.5 volts across the 150 Amp fuse you will want to put in line in case something shorts! So your 22 minutes may only last 10 before the inverter cuts out. It may only last for 8 minutes or so before the inverter starts "beeping" because of low voltage. Remember as voltage goes down, current goes up so all the above calculations get shorter and shorter as well.
I'm just an ex-farmboy, not an engineer, so feel free to correct my assumptions and experience.
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: Converter Charger [message #297258 is a reply to message #297223] |
Sun, 13 March 2016 10:17 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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mechanic007 wrote on Sat, 12 March 2016 19:58Correct. Packaging on the 1200 watt inverter says "modified sine wave". I am trying to run a 1500 watt space heater turned on the low setting when I have no household current to get some heat. Previous owner has a cheater cord going from the big 4 prong outlet on the motorhome to a standard 3 prong cord. Is there a problem with this? Will it make any difference if a buy a 4 prong to 3 prong converter from an Rv dealer?
OK Jerry,
It seems we need to clear up some nomenclature as to three and four pin things and you will soon know more about this than many other RV people.
Some years back, a group called NEMA decided to standardize both wiring devices (plugs and sockets) and the designations for same. They are now identified by the service voltage and current capacity.
NEMA = National Electrical Manufactures Association
NEMA Voltage Current
5-15 120 15 = Standard "household" grounding
5-20 120 20 = Looks similar but has the right (ground pin up) turned 90°
14-50 120/240 50 = The four pin as stock in the coach
TT-30 120 30 = Non Nema but grandfathered in for RV 30 amp service - also 3 prong****
Now, all that said, the 4-prong (14-50R) outlet in the service door of your coach is the output of the generator. The plug (14-50P) on the shore power cable is where you want to connect. To accomplish what you seem to want to do the best answer is to get an adapter for 5-15 to 14-50 this will probably be called a 20amp (it isn't) to 50 amp adapter and few RV places sell them over the counter, but they are available on line.
To power things like a heater, you will also want a 12awg extension cord ($$) but that is the lightest that will survive and the receptacle that you choose to go into may also not be up to the task, just keep an eye out for heating.
If you are going to campgrounds, you should also acquire a TT-30 to 14-50 adapter.
**** If you get one of these installed anywhere, make sure it is only 120 volt (a single 30 amp breaker). Tradesmen frequently get this mixed up with a 30 amp dryer receptacle (6-30) and connect it as 240V to two breakers and the results are always catastrophic.
Ok, if I lost you in this, come on back and I will try again.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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