Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » towd brake systems
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291729 is a reply to message #291712] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 00:01   |
welterweight
Messages: 1
Registered: August 2014
Location: Central Wisconsin
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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After evaluating a number of braking systems in early 2014 we selected the Ready Brake because of its simplicity, zero electrical connections, and proportional braking. We have been towing a Mini Cooper for around 15,000 miles coast to coast using a Ready Brake in front of a Roadmaster tow bar and mounting bracket. The combination has worked fine; braking performance is not noticeably affected by the towd.
We shortened the Roadmaster tongue to reduce the overall length of the Ready Brake/tow bar combination. Also made the clip that secures the tow bar in the stowed position removable to prevent the clip from snagging the Ready Brake cable during turns. All in all, no complaints.
Paul Welter
76 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] towd brake systems [message #291731 is a reply to message #291712] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 00:47 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Karen,
There are so many braking systems out there, that we explain the merits of
each and let the customer pick them.
The one that has been a great all around one is the Air Force One.
When it comes to Tow bars, we favor the Blue Ox as they are user friendly.
I have been towing for over 30 years so I have been in odd situations and
have learned.
On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 4:41 PM, KB wrote:
> I've been looking for a towd for a couple of years, and finally this past
> weekend
> got a 2001 Chevy tracker zr2 2-door 4x4. It took so long because the ones
> that are
> most suitable tend to sell instantly. Funny thing: we won out over the
> other
> folks clamoring to buy this tracker by simply being more polite :)
>
> Now of course, I'm looking into towd brakes, tow bars, etc.
>
> This surge brake system caught my eye as being really simple and easy to
> install and use.
> Anybody here have experience with it? It's the Ready-Brake RB-4000:
> http://www.amazon.com/NSA-RV-Products-RB-4000-Receiver/dp/B00IK56OC0
>
> thanks,
> Karen
> 1975 26'
>
>
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291733 is a reply to message #291712] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 06:06 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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I have one Karen. Like it a lot and like the idea of a surge brake.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291737 is a reply to message #291712] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 09:54 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Karen
As a Canadian Northwest mountain repair tech and driver I have had and repaired many trailers (including larger boats) with surge brakes and they all have burned the brakes out.
When driving appropriately in mountainous regions the towing vehicle should be placed in a lower gear when decending grades, allowing the compression of the engine to control the speed. (Not using and overheating the service brakes resulting in fade) The towd or trailer simply sees the action as needing to apply the towd or trailer brakes down the entire decent. At the bottom of the hill the towd brakes are usually smoking and glowing red because the brakes have been controlling the decent of the towd.
The towing vehicle can easily control the entire unit speed fown a hill when going the appropriate speed and keeping the transmission in the appropriate gear. Having a braking system in the towd or trailer that allows you to keep the brakes off until you ask for it (automatically of course) is a better choice out here.
If you live and drive in the central and eastern "flat" Areas, this probably is not a problem for you but you should keep this in mind.
I have a US Gear model braking system in my Sunfire Convertible that I tow and ince it is installed I do not need to do anything but hook up my car and go. There is no evidence that it is there.
Have fun with your new aquistion!!
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] towd brake systems [message #291739 is a reply to message #291731] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 10:16 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
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Senior Member |
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jimk wrote on Tue, 08 December 2015 22:47Karen,
There are so many braking systems out there, that we explain the merits of
each and let the customer pick them.
The one that has been a great all around one is the Air Force One.
When it comes to Tow bars, we favor the Blue Ox as they are user friendly.
I have been towing for over 30 years so I have been in odd situations and
have learned.
I'm confused (nothing new there...). It looks like the Air Force One system is for coaches with air brakes -- it uses the coach air brake system to power the towd's brake booster.
Do you add a vacuum pump to it to make it work with a GMC? Or am I missing something?
thanks,
Karen
1975 26'
[Updated on: Wed, 09 December 2015 10:17] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291744 is a reply to message #291712] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 11:49 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Karen
I just want to add that the US gear system uses a vacuum pump and cable connection to the brake peddle and coach power to the Towd system so that it uses the power brakes of the towd to help with braking. The added 4 wheels actually increases the braking capacity of the combined vehicle. Surge brakes only brake enough to stop or control the towd. The surge brakes that you identified actually have cables that go to the brake peddle to actuate them. The cable connections is more hassle than plugging in an umbilical (wire)
All this being said however, the system is more expensive. 
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] towd brake systems [message #291747 is a reply to message #291744] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 12:52 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Pete,
You did the right thing by shorting the assembly as further out, more the
side moment is transferred to the towed and to the MH.
There is a device that also firms up the connection to remove sise slack as
it all makes a difference.
Since were a authorized dealer for Blue Ox, we are requested by them to fix
problems on people with SOB coaches and find really sad situations.
On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 9:49 AM, John Heslinga wrote:
> Karen
> I just want to add that the US gear system uses a vacuum pump and cable
> connection to the brake peddle and coach power to the Towd system so that it
> uses the power brakes of the towd to help with braking. The added 4
> wheels actually increases the braking capacity of the combined vehicle.
> Surge
> brakes only brake enough to stop or control the towd. The surge brakes
> that you identified actually have cables that go to the brake peddle to
> actuate them. The cable connections is more hassle than plugging in an
> umbilical (wire)
>
> All this being said however, the system is more expensive. :(
>
> --
> John and Cathie Heslinga
> 1974 Canyonlands 260
> 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
> Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
> Edmonton, Alberta
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] towd brake systems [message #291750 is a reply to message #291747] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 12:58 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Karen, The US Air force comes two ways, so One is for non air brake.
WE are now a dealer for them so I need to start moving them, so I can quote
them at cost , should you find them to work for you.
The US Gear Unified Kit is no longer available due to IN HOUSE fighting of
agreement, parts are still available.
On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Jim Kanomata wrote:
> Pete,
> You did the right thing by shorting the assembly as further out, more the
> side moment is transferred to the towed and to the MH.
> There is a device that also firms up the connection to remove sise slack
> as it all makes a difference.
> Since were a authorized dealer for Blue Ox, we are requested by them to
> fix problems on people with SOB coaches and find really sad situations.
>
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 9:49 AM, John Heslinga wrote:
>
>> Karen
>> I just want to add that the US gear system uses a vacuum pump and cable
>> connection to the brake peddle and coach power to the Towd system so that it
>> uses the power brakes of the towd to help with braking. The added 4
>> wheels actually increases the braking capacity of the combined vehicle.
>> Surge
>> brakes only brake enough to stop or control the towd. The surge brakes
>> that you identified actually have cables that go to the brake peddle to
>> actuate them. The cable connections is more hassle than plugging in an
>> umbilical (wire)
>>
>> All this being said however, the system is more expensive. :(
>>
>> --
>> John and Cathie Heslinga
>> 1974 Canyonlands 260
>> 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
>> Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
>> Edmonton, Alberta
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291752 is a reply to message #291737] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 14:10 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""As a Canadian Northwest mountain repair tech and driver I have had and repaired many trailers (including larger boats) with surge brakes and they all have burned the brakes out.
When driving appropriately in mountainous regions the towing vehicle should be placed in a lower gear when decending grades, allowing the compression of the engine to control the speed. (Not using and overheating the service brakes resulting in fade) The towd or trailer simply sees the action as needing to apply the towd or trailer brakes down the entire decent. At the bottom of the hill the towd brakes are usually smoking and glowing red because the brakes have been controlling the decent of the towd.""
Although what you describe can happen, it doesn't have to happen if the surge assembly is adjusted and designed/calibrated for a certain load range.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291766 is a reply to message #291712] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 16:26 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Bob
Quote: Although what you describe can happen, it doesn't have to happen if the surge assembly is adjusted and designed/calibrated for a certain load range.
You've got me curious. Even the last U-Haul RV series trailer was stinking pretty hot the last time i rented one. (Wouldn't reverse once the trailer would get into loose sand or grass either.) It had a disc brake surge system) As an aside, my stainless disks in my boat have a solinoid that dumps pressurized brake fluid into the reservoir in reverse)
Can you elaborate please. I don't think I noticed or seen any surge brake systems that have adjustment that allow the brakes to release when the towed unit is pushing on the tow vehicle going down hill. (incuding the towd unit from amazon listed here) the best Ive seen is shocks that stop brake grab and release.
Hmmmm?
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291773 is a reply to message #291766] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 19:54 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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John Heslinga wrote on Wed, 09 December 2015 15:26Bob
Quote: Although what you describe can happen, it doesn't have to happen if the surge assembly is adjusted and designed/calibrated for a certain load range.
You've got me curious. Even the last U-Haul RV series trailer was stinking pretty hot the last time i rented one. (Wouldn't reverse once the trailer would get into loose sand or grass either.) It had a disc brake surge system) As an aside, my stainless disks in my boat have a solinoid that dumps pressurized brake fluid into the reservoir in reverse)
Can you elaborate please. I don't think I noticed or seen any surge brake systems that have adjustment that allow the brakes to release when the towed unit is pushing on the tow vehicle going down hill. (incuding the towd unit from amazon listed here) the best Ive seen is shocks that stop brake grab and release.
Hmmmm?
No U-haul RV trailers have disk brakes. They are all drum and have a "hold off" spring which prevents actuation in reverse and downhill grades unless the tow vehicle brakes are actuated. The highest brake pressure I have seen on steep downhill runs is 12 psi and it takes 70 psi to start to move the shoes off the pin. Many surge brakes have adjustable master cylinder push rods.It's all about how much inertia it takes during decel before the trailer brakes are actuated--a function of the surge brake springs, the master cylinder adjustment and the pull back springs on the brake shoes. The only U-Haul disk brake trailers are early auto transports and they have a built in relief valve that opens during reverse movement.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291781 is a reply to message #291712] |
Wed, 09 December 2015 20:27 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Bob!
I assumed the U haul RV to have disc brakes because it locked up everytime I tried to back up into the grass or sand (or anything that was a bit resistive.).
It may have needed servicing.
Most drum surge brakes use a uniservo type of shoe actuation that is basicly useless in reverse such that they do not apply in reverse. I see what your getting at, though. The master cylinder needs to overcome the return springs. M must be that many of the trailers with atwood,titan, or tie down may have unbalance parts. I sure fixed a lot though. And they had a lot of evidence of overheat. Maybe I needed to replace return springs on each of those repairs? But they did not appear to be compromised. Oh well:
The system on my boat is tie down stainless disc and going down a hill while in low gear sure applies its brakes and cooks the disk. (No springs in the calipers).
All this is simply what Ive experienced.
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291849 is a reply to message #291712] |
Thu, 10 December 2015 17:23 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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I have my Ready Brake system set up fairly 'loose'. There is a red light that goes on your dash that tells you when it has engaged. Mine only comes on when I get on the brakes fairly hard. For just easing up to a stop they won't come on.
If you have it too tight, the red light would be on a lot and that should alert an attentive driver that there is a problem. If someone is one of those "I never check the dash gauges" guys, they probably don't want a Ready Brake (or perhaps a GMC for that matter)
Be aware that on the other types of brake systems, you have to press the brake pedal in the toad to dump the vacuum or it will lock up the toad brakes and flat spot your tires if you do a hard stop from speed while vacuum is still in the booster. My cousin forgot that in his SOB and it cost him a set of toad tires.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] towd brake systems [message #291895 is a reply to message #291781] |
Fri, 11 December 2015 19:35 |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409
Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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It appears you do not understand Bob's explanation....All surge brakes have a manual lockout mechanism to stop the brakes from applying themselves during backup of the unit or on long downhills...As Bob said ...there are also other adjustments...Brian 77 ele 455 and some trailers
> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 19:27:14 -0700
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> From: rbeeper@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] towd brake systems
>
> Thanks Bob!
>
> I assumed the U haul RV to have disc brakes because it locked up everytime I tried to back up into the grass or sand (or anything that was a bit
> resistive.).
> It may have needed servicing.
>
> Most drum surge brakes use a uniservo type of shoe actuation that is basicly useless in reverse such that they do not apply in reverse. I see what
> your getting at, though. The master cylinder needs to overcome the return springs. M must be that many of the trailers with atwood,titan, or tie
> down may have unbalance parts. I sure fixed a lot though. And they had a lot of evidence of overheat. Maybe I needed to replace return springs on
> each of those repairs? But they did not appear to be compromised. Oh well:
>
> The system on my boat is tie down stainless disc and going down a hill while in low gear sure applies its brakes and cooks the disk. (No springs in
> the calipers).
>
> All this is simply what Ive experienced.
>
>
> --
> John and Cathie Heslinga
> 1974 Canyonlands 260
> 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
> Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
> Edmonton, Alberta
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291906 is a reply to message #291712] |
Sat, 12 December 2015 00:49 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Brian:
I did understand his explanation. I am also aware that most have a manual lock out to disable the brakes until the lockout is removed) . As I said earlier most drum brakes are designed to be ineffective when reversing (but will apply in more resistive situations where a lockout will need to be actuated) Disc brake systems disable the system with the reverse light (mine dumps the line pressure into the reservoir through a solinoid valve.)
I personally, would not manually disable trailer brakes when beginning a down hill decent.(for many reasons) often braking is required. The brakes on the trailer or towd should not apply until the service brakes on the tow vehicle are applied. (Not when engine braking is occuring) Bob is indicating if the towd vehicle return Springs are heavy enough, the towd should not begin braking until there is a significant more pressure between the towd vhicle and the tow vehicle. ( hense increased brake line pressure) (I'm absolutely confident that he has measured this in his position) This also implies as stated that during all light braking situations the surge brakes do not apply.
The problem for me is simply: I've repaired a lot of overheated surge brake applications. (The ones I haven't needed to repair were probably working correctly.)
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] towd brake systems [message #291910 is a reply to message #291906] |
Sat, 12 December 2015 06:35 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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At least two highly capable GMCer come to mind whose toad brakes have been
burned out by binding surge brakes. One pulled into Bean Station with a
near-new Saturn having no brakes left after coming from Florida with a
binding cable. The other lives in Florida, where he rebuilds airplanes; I
don't remember details of his problem. I have no other experience of them
-- nor intend to.
For my part, my $30 toad brakes have served me well on both the S-10 and
the CRV since 2003. While they do not react quickly enough to be of much
help in a panic stop, they definitely do help on normal stops and in
mountainous terrain. Perhaps their best feature is that they require no
hookup; they work with the stop lights. That, and the fact that I have,
literally, have not serviced them during those 12 years. But I do
occasionally, when driving the vehicles, depress the dash button to test
them. They always provide a stop slightly shorter than I normally make.
I HAVE burned up the front brakes on the CRV twice by inadvertently
tripping the breakaway cable which activates the dead man switch -- purely
my carelessness.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g3291-2430-toad-brake.html
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:49 AM, John Heslinga wrote:
> Brian:
>
> I did understand his explanation. I am also aware that most have a manual
> lock out to disable the brakes until the lockout is removed) . As I said
> earlier most drum brakes are designed to be ineffective when reversing
> (but will apply in more resistive situations where a lockout will need to be
> actuated) Disc brake systems disable the system with the reverse light
> (mine dumps the line pressure into the reservoir through a solinoid valve.)
> ...
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] towd brake systems [message #291913 is a reply to message #291910] |
Sat, 12 December 2015 07:40 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Ken Henderson wrote on Sat, 12 December 2015 06:35At least two highly capable GMCer come to mind whose toad brakes have been
burned out by binding surge brakes. ...
I suspect those were an early version of Ready Brake without the 'brakes applied' light or perhaps they were not monitoring the light or had not installed it. A person would have to really be obviously to the red light being on to drag a car long enough to burn out the brakes....not to mention feeling the drag and wondering why their power was way down.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291930 is a reply to message #291712] |
Sat, 12 December 2015 14:05 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I spoke with Demco and Blue Ox when I was hunting towbars. Both were most helpful. I bought the Demco because it's a somewhat easier install on a Soul than the Blue Ox, but I'd be comfortable with either. I run mostly flatlands, so I eschew toad brakes - with floated backing plates (Some call torque arms) the brakes will stand the coach on its head. If I ran hilly terrain, I'd look at a surge system, which I've used elsewhere to good effect. Simple and reliable.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: towd brake systems [message #291995 is a reply to message #291712] |
Sun, 13 December 2015 16:42 |
Darryl
Messages: 144
Registered: December 2011
Location: Northern California
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I use the Ready-Brake with my 95 Tracker and have had no problems. Very happy with it. The tracker came with a triangular tow-bar so I got the receiver style system that just extends the receiver by about a foot. They make a tow bar with the braking system built into it and if I had needed a tow bar I probably would have got that. Installation was easy - probably only a couple of hours including the bread-away kit.
Darryl Meyers
1978 Eleganza II
El Dorado Hills, CA
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