Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Ethanol
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| Re: Ethanol [message #290702 is a reply to message #290634] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 02:24   |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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Bob de Kruyff wrote on Fri, 20 November 2015 08:56Many of you may sleep better if this happens:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101082_epa-proposes-to-cut-ethanol-requirement-for-gasoline
The trouble with "pure" gasoline is that it won't work in internal combustion engines. It knocks like crazy. So, since day one, gasoline has been laced with something. Tetra-ethyl lead was a favorite but not real good for humans. (Patented by GM by the way) Then they tried MTBE. (Did we gripe when gas was 15% MTBE?) Not sure I want MTBE in my well water.
So, what are they putting in that "pure" gas? Toluene? Trimethylpentane? Butanol? (another alcohol)
Grumpy George because I wasn't paying attention and paid 45 cents a gallon extra to get "pure" gas when I was in the midwest in September. What a chump!
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: Ethanol [message #290704 is a reply to message #290702] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 05:03 |
gladius
Messages: 48
Registered: November 2015
Karma: 0
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"The trouble with "pure" gasoline is that it won't work in internal combustion engines."
Sure it will--as long as it's well formulated with the right alkanes.
Neither tetraethyl lead nor MTBE nor any other "additive" is required to formulate high octane gasoline. High octane fuel can be, and is created with 100% hydrocarbons.
Tetraethyl lead has not been used in road gasoline for years, and was only used in the beginning due to the ease of creating knock-resistant fuels with it, and inexperience/lack of knowledge of how to formulate high octane fuels without it. MTBE was only used in California to my knowledge, and yes, it was a disaster. It's never been used in Alabama, and we've had 93-94 octane gasoline for years, long before ethanol came along.
Ethanol is not used at all in many premium gasoline formulations. It was only introduced to begin with as a stealthy way of subsidizing gasoline cost through an indirect route (farm subsidies), thus helping to mask the effects of ever-increasing oil prices, in a world where all the low hanging fruit has been picked and we have to resort to ever more expensive fossil fuel sources (shale oil, etc) to continue to feed our enormous appetite for oil.
The future is in direct conversion of biomass into synthetic oil. It won't be as cheap as fossil oil, but it will actually be sustainable. Back in the 1920s Germany invented the Fischer-Tropsch process which they used to convert their coal reserves into diesel and gasoline during times of shortage, especially during WW2. The process was relatively inefficient and produced low quality fuels. 90+ years later, we have found new ways to improve this process , and these days it can be used to produce gasoline and diesel fuels (as well as other hydrocarbon products; waxes, lubricating oils, etc) that are even higher quality than what can be made from fossil oil.
[Updated on: Sun, 22 November 2015 05:12] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #290711 is a reply to message #290704] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 07:20 |
Dolph Santorine
Messages: 1236
Registered: April 2011
Location: Wheeling, WV
Karma: -41
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Senior Member |
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MTBE was used to oxygenate fuels for "clean air"
MTBE was federally mandated in 48 states, and fouled well water in ALL of them.
Leaded fuels are still used in Aircraft and racing applications. I use 100LL in my lawn equipment. It's less expensive than fixing it.
Dolph Santorine
DE N8JPC
Wheeling, West Virginia
1977 ex-Palm Beach TZE167V100820
1-ton, Sullybuilt Bags, Reaction Arms, 3.70 LSD, Manny Transmission, EV-6010,
> On Nov 22, 2015, at 6:03 AM, Nathan Cline wrote:
>
> "The trouble with "pure" gasoline is that it won't work in internal combustion engines."
>
> Sure it will--as long as it's well formulated with the right alkanes.
>
> Neither tetraethyl lead nor MTBE nor any other "additive" is required to formulate high octane gasoline. High octane fuel can be, and is created with
> 100% hydrocarbons.
>
> Tetraethyl lead has not been used in road gasoline for years, and was only used in the beginning due to the ease of creating knock-resistant fuels
> with it, and inexperience/lack of knowledge of how to formulate high octane fuels without it. MTBE was only used in California to my knowledge, and
> yes, it was a disaster. It's never been used in Alabama, and we've had 93-94 octane gasoline for years, long before ethanol came along. Ethanol is not
> used at all in many premium gasoline formulations.
>
>
>
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| Re: Ethanol [message #290716 is a reply to message #290634] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 08:47 |
bobby5832708
Messages: 237
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winter Springs FL
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I've always used the cheapest regular-grade gasoline in all my vehicles and lawn equipment and haven't had any issues yet. Some examples:
1. I gave my son my old 1994 Lowes lawn tractor with a Briggs 14 (or something like that) engine few years ago. Nothing had ever been changed on it except for the oil once a year. Being a tightwad, long ago when it needed an air filter I choked at the price Lowes wanted for a genuine Briggs replacement, ripped the paper out of the old one, and with a roll of gauze I made a crude imitation of a K&N. It's still there today, just needs cleaning every couple of years. Last weekend the engine started acting up, the 21 year old fuel line was coming apart and it clogged the original fuel filter with black pieces. My son replaced the fuel filter and the black fuel lines and the old Lowesmobile runs fine once again. So, was it the ethanol or just the fact that the fuel lines were 21 years old? I say old age had something to do with it, I can't complain when we get 21 years of service from fuel line and filter.
2. I got a Craftsman leaf blower for Christmas 1988, still use it regularly. Many years ago I had to replace the fuel lines and learned that if you buy Tygon labeled fuel lines instead of the generic unlabeled yellow crap there would be no problems. I don't remember how many years it's been since I installed the Tygon fuel lines, the leaf blower still runs fine. Other than the fuel lines I had to replace the pull cord once. That's it. Coming up on 27 years of use, the air filter foam is barely there, and it still runs fine. When I hear people talk about ethanol killing 2 cycle engines I laugh and tell them about my 1988 Craftsman leaf blower. Maybe it's the 2 cycle oil for water-cooled outboard engines I use, it's cheaper to buy a gallon of it at Sam's Club than to buy the small cans of the air-cooled engine oil at Lowes. I get an even bigger laugh when I see Lowes and Depot selling really expensive pre-mixed 2 cycle ethanol-free fuel for like $5 a quart. Reminds me of that old saying... a fool and his money are soon parted.
3. The 2011 John Deere lawn tractor with a Briggs 20 (or something like that) runs fine. It gets an oil change once a year.
4. Donna's 2004 Toyota Avalon is coming up on 200k miles. Still has the original fuel filter, it's a pain to get to so I am going to wait until I really NEED to change it. Nothing has been done to the engine or fuel system except for normal maintenance. Still runs great. I guess the ethanol really doesn't dissolve lots of gunk and clog fuel filters.
5. My 2005 Crown Vic P71 was a fleet vehicle for most of it's life and when I bought it in 2012 it appeared to have had it's fuel filter changed fairly recently. Apparently fleet managers follow a more stringent maintenance schedule than I do. I only know the cars history from 2012-on and it runs fine on whatever cheap gas I put in it. It hasn't died yet.
6. My GMC had it's fuel system replumbed in 2006 using Gates fuel line, two Carter 4070 pumps, check valves, and a Magnafuel pressure regulator. I bypass the pumps through about a .020 orifice (to ensure the pumps are full of liquid, no vapor) back to the rear tank. The GMC runs fine, no hesitation or stalling even in hot weather city driving. Still has the same engine GM put in it back in 1973 except for the timing chain, valve covers, and aluminum Rockwell intake. Ethanol hasn't killed it yet. Next month it will be 42 years old and it still runs fine. When it finally quits do I blame the ethanol or just old age? I think 42 years and 140k miles is pretty good service for a car engine, especially in this application.
Anyway, enough typing for this month. Just my opinion and my experiences.
Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: Ethanol [message #290717 is a reply to message #290634] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 09:01 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Best thing about this is it may kill the E15 debate. There are TV commercials running now about removing the E10 mandate. If you read the fine print at the end one of the sponsers is the Chain restaurant assn. I guess the price of corn syrup has heen driven up by fuel use. I can tolerate E10, and E85, but E15 has no place and creates a whole set of problems
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Ethanol [message #290721 is a reply to message #290704] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 09:41 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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gladius wrote on Sun, 22 November 2015 03:03"The trouble with "pure" gasoline is that it won't work in internal combustion engines."
Sure it will--as long as it's well formulated with the right alkanes.
Neither tetraethyl lead nor MTBE nor any other "additive" is required to formulate high octane gasoline. High octane fuel can be, and is created with 100% hydrocarbons.
Tetraethyl lead has not been used in road gasoline for years, and was only used in the beginning due to the ease of creating knock-resistant fuels with it, and inexperience/lack of knowledge of how to formulate high octane fuels without it. MTBE was only used in California to my knowledge, and yes, it was a disaster. It's never been used in Alabama, and we've had 93-94 octane gasoline for years, long before ethanol came along.
Ethanol is not used at all in many premium gasoline formulations. It was only introduced to begin with as a stealthy way of subsidizing gasoline cost through an indirect route (farm subsidies), thus helping to mask the effects of ever-increasing oil prices, in a world where all the low hanging fruit has been picked and we have to resort to ever more expensive fossil fuel sources (shale oil, etc) to continue to feed our enormous appetite for oil.
The future is in direct conversion of biomass into synthetic oil. It won't be as cheap as fossil oil, but it will actually be sustainable. Back in the 1920s Germany invented the Fischer-Tropsch process which they used to convert their coal reserves into diesel and gasoline during times of shortage, especially during WW2. The process was relatively inefficient and produced low quality fuels. 90+ years later, we have found new ways to improve this process , and these days it can be used to produce gasoline and diesel fuels (as well as other hydrocarbon products; waxes, lubricating oils, etc) that are even higher quality than what can be made from fossil oil.
Thank you. I learned a great deal from this. As you can tell, I am not a chemist.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #290738 is a reply to message #290737] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 17:10 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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I went to use my pole chain saw to clear some brush last week. When last
used, I drained fuel and ran the carb until it quit running. Poulan saw.
Went to fill the fuel tank, the "clunk" on the fuel pickup line in the tank
was stuck to the plastic tank. Hmmm? WTF? Used a small wire to dislodge it.
Fuel line turned to small bits and pieces. Followed it to the carb. Same
deal . Tank looks to be the last thing to come off, so, filling the fuel
tank turns into a major pita. So much for just grabbing the saw and cutting
brush that day. Let's see, do I want to screw around with a totally screwed
up fuel system?
Nah, I went to Bi-mart and bought a new pole saw. Remington brand this
time. Came with several pages of warnings, Do NOT LEAVE GAS IN THE TANK
AFTER USE. DO NOT USE OLD FUEL, DO NOT USE ALCOHOL BLENDED FUEL IF OTHER
FUELS WITHOUT ALCOHOL ARE AVAILABLE. Several paragraphs dedicated to fuel
related problems caused by alcohol blended fuels. No warranty if higher
than 10% alcohol content fuel is used. Usual cautions on pre mixing oil
with fuel. They make em, I think they know what they have had warranty and
service problems with. Good enough for me.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Nov 22, 2015 2:36 PM, "Matt Colie" wrote:
> There were a rush of little 2-stokes that failed early in the ethanol fuel
> time. An you are about to understand why with one word.
>
> Permatex.
>
> Just about everything but the OMC built little engines of the day got the
> crankcase halves sealed with Permatex.
>
> Problem:
> What is the solvent for Permatex #2 & #3??
> Alcohol Either ethyl or methal will do. (Or more accurately - Undo.)
>
> It was originally rumored that it was somehow damaging the lubricity of
> the oil in the fuel mix, but that turned out to be wrong. The problem was
> simply that with the leaky crankcase, they went lean and self-destructed
> in normal fashion.
>
> In my current collection are a pair of K-301 Kohler engines. Both have
> had carburetor and fuel pump issues that I can prove were related to
> ethanol.
> I have had similar difficulties with the Onan's carburetor.
>
> I regularly store fuel in 5 gallon GI cans and have done so for years.
> The best for long term was no-lead regular. Old leaded regular was maybe
> good
> for less than a year in a shed. High test was maybe good for six months,
> but you had to be ready to deal with it. If it turned orange and stank,
> save it for starting fires or cleaning things (dangerous). I have had
> reason success storing 8~10% fuel - again in sealed GI cans - for a year. I
> try to get rid of it before that. I have to store more fuel than I like
> to because we can get snow and/or a power outage either of which can require
> fuel for the house power or to do the snow battle and it has been that
> there were 3~4 days that no fuel dealer could be accessed.
>
> So, if like living where you can shoot a center fire rifle in the
> backyard, you learn to be prepared.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
> '73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #290799 is a reply to message #290797] |
Mon, 23 November 2015 18:11 |
Dolph Santorine
Messages: 1236
Registered: April 2011
Location: Wheeling, WV
Karma: -41
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Senior Member |
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But Rob, the customer is ALWAYS right.
Dolph Santorine
DE N8JPC
Wheeling, West Virginia
1977 ex-Palm Beach TZE167V100820
1-ton, Sullybuilt Bags, Reaction Arms, 3.70 LSD, Manny Transmission, EV-6010,
> On Nov 23, 2015, at 7:06 PM, Robert Mueller wrote:
>
> Pete,
>
> With all due respect, EVERYBODY that claims warranty is 100% honest about how they used the product?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Pete Smith
>
> " They make em, I think they know what they have had warranty and
> service problems with. Good enough for me."
>
> Never underestimate a Corporations willingness to avoid paying for their "warranty".......most of that text is likely
> simply to give them an excuse to say "sorry but you voided the warranty".
> Since most of us have no way of knowing whats in the gas we buy or checking when they say it had ethanol/whatever it
> means we have to rely on the goodwill of the Corporation...
>
> Pete
>
>
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