Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps
| Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #286955] |
Wed, 09 September 2015 15:09  |
Francois
Messages: 161
Registered: October 2012
Location: Southern California
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The first thing I did when I undertook this challenge, was to access and print out one of the sets of instructions. That guide told me to drop the front - right axle, to remove the fender liners, and to do several other things. As far as removing the fender liners, there is plenty of room in the engine compartment without removing those. I had no problem reaching anything. Things I couldn't quite reach from the top, I got from the bottom. I should mention that I have the front wheels of the coach up a foot or so on wooden ramps I constructed.
Where I must really disagree with the guide was in the lowering of the right side front axle. I could not crack that axle nut and didn't do it. However, and following the suggestion by C Boyd on this site, I went in through the starter port and took out the three flywheel/torque converter bolts, turning the flywheel to get at them with a big screwdriver. The bottom line is, using this method, I got the old engine out and the new one in with no surprises. The whole engine only has to move forward an inch or less in order for the flywheel to clear the transmission and for it to raise out of there unobstructed. Going in with the new was similar in reverse.
The hardest thing was in constructing the 2x8 gantry, and in modifying the Harbor Freight trolley to roll on it. As far as what you have to take apart in the coach, I have to say it's many fewer than I expected, and the whole project was much easier than I would have predicted.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #286962 is a reply to message #286955] |
Wed, 09 September 2015 16:28  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Sigmund,
I don't mean to be argumentative, however, your comments below are kinda one sided. Since you did not take out the fender wells how
do you know if the job wouldn't have been easier if you had.
As far as not cracking the axle nut goes; sooner or later you're going to have to remove it to service the CV joints and the wheel
bearings.
I had suggested you rent a 1" pneumatic impact wrench to remove the axle nuts, however, I guess there were none available in your
area. I would like to make another suggestion; when you get the engine back in and running drive your GMC to a truck servicing
company and have them remove both axle nuts and retorque them as per the maintenance manual. You will then be able to service the CV
joints and wheel bearings.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: Sigmund Frankenfelter
The first thing I did when I undertook this challenge, was to access and print out one of the sets of instructions. That guide told
me to drop the front - right axle, to remove the fender liners, and to do several other things. As far as removing the fender
liners, there is plenty of room in the engine compartment without removing those. I had no problem reaching anything. Things I
couldn't quite reach from the top, I got from the bottom. I should mention that I have the front wheels of the coach up a foot or so
on wooden ramps I constructed.
Where I must really disagree with the guide was in the lowering of the right side front axle. I could not crack that axle nut and
didn't do it.
However, and following the suggestion by C Boyd on this site, I went in through the starter port and took out the three
flywheel/torque converter bolts, turning the flywheel to get at them with a big screwdriver. The bottom line is, using this method,
I got the old engine out and the new one in with no surprises. The whole engine only has to move forward an inch or less in order
for the flywheel to clear the transmission and for it to raise out of there unobstructed. Going in with the new was similar in
reverse.
The hardest thing was in constructing the 2x8 gantry, and in modifying the Harbor Freight trolley to roll on it. As far as what you
have to take apart in the coach, I have to say it's many fewer than I expected, and the whole project was much easier than I would
have predicted.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #286965 is a reply to message #286962] |
Wed, 09 September 2015 16:46 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Sigmund,
Rob beat me to it: I was also about to suggest that NOW is the time to
loosen your too-tight axle nuts, not when it's a must and you're not in a
position to bring enough leverage to bear on the problem.
Ken H.
On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Robert Mueller
wrote:
> Sigmund,
> ...
>
As far as not cracking the axle nut goes; sooner or later you're going to
> have to remove it to service the CV joints and the wheel
> bearings.
>
> I had suggested you rent a 1" pneumatic impact wrench to remove the axle
> nuts, however, I guess there were none available in your
> area. I would like to make another suggestion; when you get the engine
> back in and running drive your GMC to a truck servicing
> company and have them remove both axle nuts and retorque them as per the
> maintenance manual. You will then be able to service the CV
> joints and wheel bearings.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #287034 is a reply to message #287028] |
Thu, 10 September 2015 16:27 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Sigmund,
Sounds like you never saw one of these (worth printing and posting in the
shop):
http://unlimited-usa.com/ftpgetfile.php?id=29
Generally, torque specifications are for dry threads unless specified
otherwise.
Ken H.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Sigmund Frankenfelter <
ziggy.frankenf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Wow. This is the very first time in my life that I have been advised not
> to lubricate the threads of, well, anything.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #287041 is a reply to message #287034] |
Thu, 10 September 2015 17:20 |
Francois
Messages: 161
Registered: October 2012
Location: Southern California
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Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 10 September 2015 14:27Sigmund,
Sounds like you never saw one of these (worth printing and posting in the
shop):
http://unlimited-usa.com/ftpgetfile.php?id=29
Generally, torque specifications are for dry threads unless specified
otherwise.
Ken H.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Sigmund Frankenfelter <
ziggy.frankenf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Wow. This is the very first time in my life that I have been advised not
> to lubricate the threads of, well, anything.
>
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Nope, never did. First time I ever read it. Learn somethin every day
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| Re: [GMCnet] Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #287043 is a reply to message #286962] |
Thu, 10 September 2015 17:48 |
rjw
Messages: 697
Registered: September 2005
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[quote title=USAussie wrote on Wed, 09 September 2015 17:28]Sigmund,
USAussie wrote on Wed, 09 September 2015 17:28Sigmund,
I don't mean to be argumentative, however, your comments below are kinda one sided. Since you did not take out the fender wells how
do you know if the job wouldn't have been easier if you had.
Regards,
Rob M.
to remove the fender liners, and to do several other things. As far as removing the fender
liners, there is plenty of room in the engine compartment without removing those. I had no problem reaching anything. Things I
couldn't quite reach from the top, I got from the bottom. I should mention that I have the front wheels of the coach up a foot or so
on wooden ramps I constructed.
Removing an engine without removing the "wheel well liners"? It can be done of course, but the job is so much easier with them out. I remove the liners for just about everything I do to the engine. Engine, tranny, final drive, spark plugs, AC compressor, exhaust manifold work, electronic cruise control, EFI etc. etc. It is just so much easier to work on that stuff with the liners out. I can have them out in less than 5 minutes and back in place in another 5 minutes.
Richard
76 Palm Beach
SE Michigan
www.PalmBeachGMC.com
Roller Cam 455, TBI+EBL, 3.42 FD, 4 Bag, Macerator, Lenzi (brakes, vacuum system, front end stuff), Manny Tranny, vacuum step, Tankless + OEM water heaters.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #287047 is a reply to message #287045] |
Thu, 10 September 2015 18:29 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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John,
You have a paired Timken roller bearing (set# 23). It requires a pre-load
on the bearing for optimum performance and longevity. The torque required
is necessary to be sure that the spacer between the bearing is tight
against the races and providing proper load on the bearings.
This article will give you a better understanding of why pre-loads are
needed.
http://www.vehicleservicepros.com/article/10712957/why-preload-settings-on-wheel-end-bearings-are-favored-over-endplay-settings
When bearings are set to a measured light preload:
- Expenditures on tires are reduced because tires wear evenly and last
longer.
- Seals don’t leak because preload provides truer motion between the hub
and spindle, subjecting the seal to less movement geometry for sealing
mechanisms to follow.
- Brake systems perform as designed because vibrations are reduced.
- Risk of catastrophic failure is reduced from the consequences of
misadjusted bearings.
- Unscheduled and emergency maintenance goes down, resulting in less
downtime and more uptime.
On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 5:07 PM, John R. Lebetski
wrote:
> As far as the big axle nut goes, doesn't that just locate the splined
> shaft, which has no real in/out forces, just rotational torque?
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> Source America First
>
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>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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| Re: [GMCnet] Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #287053 is a reply to message #287045] |
Thu, 10 September 2015 19:45 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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John,
The CV joint / Axle nut provides the clamping force on the wheel bearing / spacer stack.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56759-steering-axis.html
IIRC the Timken Set #23 has a clearance of 0.009 in. when torqued as per the MM X-7625 / Section 3A - Front Suspension / Page 3A-21
/ Torque Specifications:
Drive Axle Nut *
110-140 ft lb (Do not exceed 280 ft. lbs.)
*NOTE: After reaching the minimum torque required, nut must always be tightened to insert cotter pin, Never back off nut.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
PS - Timken Set #23 bearing clearance information plagerized from Emery Stora. ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: John R. Lebetski
As far as the big axle nut goes, doesn't that just locate the splined shaft, which has no real in/out forces, just rotational
torque?
--
John
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #287062 is a reply to message #287053] |
Thu, 10 September 2015 22:39 |
Dave Mumert
Messages: 272
Registered: February 2004
Location: Olds, AB, Canada
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Hi
From that drawing it appears to me that the bearing and spacer are actually clamped together by the outer seal and the bearing
retainer. One outer race sits against the ridge in the knuckle, next is the spacer, then another outer race, then the outer seal,
and finally the bearing retainer. The axle nut and CV joint clamp the bearings (inner races) to the CV joint to be sure they always
rotate with the axle, just in case the press fit is not up to the job.
I doubt you could affect the bearing spacing by any significant amount by the torque on the axle nut.
140 ft. lbs. does not seem to be that much for the size of the nut and 'bolt'. Most of us could apply 140 ft. lbs. with a 12 inch
wrench, and 280 with an 18" swing handle.
Dave Mumert
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Mueller
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 6:45 PM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps
>
> John,
>
> The CV joint / Axle nut provides the clamping force on the wheel bearing / spacer stack.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p56759-steering-axis.html
>
> IIRC the Timken Set #23 has a clearance of 0.009 in. when torqued as per the MM X-7625 / Section 3A - Front Suspension / Page
3A-21
> / Torque Specifications:
>
> Drive Axle Nut *
>
> 110-140 ft lb (Do not exceed 280 ft. lbs.)
>
> *NOTE: After reaching the minimum torque required, nut must always be tightened to insert cotter pin, Never back off nut.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
>
> PS - Timken Set #23 bearing clearance information plagerized from Emery Stora. ;-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John R. Lebetski
>
> As far as the big axle nut goes, doesn't that just locate the splined shaft, which has no real in/out forces, just rotational
torque?
> --
> John
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #287072 is a reply to message #287062] |
Fri, 11 September 2015 08:27 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Dave,
I edited the photo to clarify how the front bearings are clamped and bring it in line with what you've noted below.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/aa-miscellaneous-photos/p59128-bearing-clamping-load.html
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Mumert
Hi
From that drawing it appears to me that the bearing and spacer are actually clamped together by the outer seal and the bearing
retainer. One outer race sits against the ridge in the knuckle, next is the spacer, then another outer race, then the outer seal,
and finally the bearing retainer. The axle nut and CV joint clamp the bearings (inner races) to the CV joint to be sure they always
rotate with the axle, just in case the press fit is not up to the job.
I doubt you could affect the bearing spacing by any significant amount by the torque on the axle nut.
140 ft. lbs. does not seem to be that much for the size of the nut and 'bolt'. Most of us could apply 140 ft. lbs. with a 12 inch
wrench, and 280 with an 18" swing handle.
Dave Mumert
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #287079 is a reply to message #286955] |
Fri, 11 September 2015 12:23 |
cbryan
Messages: 451
Registered: May 2012
Location: Ennis, Texas
Karma: 3
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Sigmund,
If I remember correctly (remembering correctly at times is not a strong suit with me.), The history of that axle nut and its tightening is that somehow there was a conflict between or among service manuals as to how tight it should be. The numbers that stick in my mind is that some tightened to 240 lb-ft, (too tight), and some to 150 lb-ft, (correct). This was found and lost information over the years, found again. (I wonder if Billy could find and correct the incorrect figure in his archives and lose this problem once and for all.) So, you may have an overtightened nut. Some have found that the overtightening (or some unrelated process, that's possible) has weakened the spindle enough to crack it. (An episode I read here in the forum some years ago.)
Second, I had understood from Matt Colie that threads should always be lubricated and torqued to specs. As he was on the requisite SAE "nut and bolt tightening committee", I accepted what he said as gospel, though probably I misunderstood his advice.
Thanks for your advice on the fender wells. It is primarily a matter of easy access to the exhaust manifold bolts if I remember what people said rightly. How is your 455 running now? It's good to hear about your adventures about pulling the engine. I think now I will pull mine rather than try to fool with it in situ. (Valve train woes). I have a trolley setup.
Best,
Carey
Carey from Ennis, Texas
78 Royale, 500 Cadillac, Rance Baxter EFI.
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| Re: Just a word on "out the top" engine swaps [message #287080 is a reply to message #287079] |
Fri, 11 September 2015 12:41 |
cbryan
Messages: 451
Registered: May 2012
Location: Ennis, Texas
Karma: 3
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OK, found Matt's post on fasteners. I derived from it that in rebuilding especially, get the crud and rust out of the threads as best you can and lubricate, especially under the head. You will see from the below he mentions a "specific lubricant". What is that? It's time for Matt to elaborate on what he does.
Rob, et al,
ARP fasteners say, I think, that for accurate torque, we should lubricate the threads in a cleaned environment. Be sure to lubricate under the head of the bolt if it is a cap screw.
I think that the engine builders on the assembly line just use the as-machined threads and hardware, with residual cutting oil and assembly lube on the threads and don't pay attention to the underside of cap screws.
So, what is the correct way? And what happens to torque when Loctite is used? That means clean threads.
Or does it make a particle of difference?
Thanks for your kind response.
carey
Oh Judas Priest...
carey,
You have just pried open a can of worms that has plagued manufacturing since threaded fasteners were first used.
I still have the ASTM report that delineates the fifty six (Yes - 56) variables that significantly affect the torque-tension relationship.
Lubrication in the fasteners is critical. Cleanliness is critical. When an engine line receives a bin of fasteners, those fasteners were cleaned and sprayed with a specific lubricant at the supplier. I have worked on a few of these.
Fastener tension is what it is all about. Tensioning by torque and torque alone has about a +/- scatter of 35%. GOT THAT? So the scatter is 70% of the total? Yeapers, it sure is. This is why almost all production is done as torque and turn. This is why I always tell people, if you feel like it is going poorly, stop. If a manufacturer has a specified method. Stay with it, even if you think it is in error. To say that everything matters is an understatement of the actual situation.
This is a lot of what I am going to try to explain in the paper I am trying to put together for a future tech session. It is taking a lot longer to put together than I had initially expected because I keep having to go back and put things back in that had hoped I could leave out so as to make the entire picture less daunting.
I hope this was some clarification. If I have raised another question, I will be back after a short stop.
We are at the Quad-cities Botanical in Rockford Il right now.
Matt - Ex - International Fastener Institute and ASTM Fastener Technology Committee
Carey from Ennis, Texas
78 Royale, 500 Cadillac, Rance Baxter EFI.
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