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| Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285695] |
Mon, 24 August 2015 01:29  |
jturbo
Messages: 76
Registered: August 2013
Location: Socal
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What has been done so far that works the best?
1. Stock Pump is it good ?
2. Flow Kooler Gen 2 is this worth the price?
3. Electric water pump? has anyone tried?
4. Edelbrock Water Pump
5.
1978 Royal 403
1977 Birchaven 455
1977 Kingsley 455
All under Upgrading and restoration
Rosemead California
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| Re: Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285711 is a reply to message #285695] |
Mon, 24 August 2015 05:00  |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
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1. Stock pump is good.
jturbo wrote on Mon, 24 August 2015 02:29What has been done so far that works the best?
1. Stock Pump is it good ?
2. Flow Kooler Gen 2 is this worth the price?
3. Electric water pump? has anyone tried?
4. Edelbrock Water Pump
5.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285724 is a reply to message #285695] |
Mon, 24 August 2015 09:30 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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Having tried to run electric WP on the street, my advice is...don't.
Good at idle as the pump rpm is higher than engine RPM. but not at highway speeds
Only useful for drag racing.
Never run one on an olds...but Flow kooler is an upgrade if your stock impeller is a stamped part with no back plate, as opposed to a cast one. Of course, you wont know unless you pull it off and apart to look. Not sure what the original ones were but rebuilds vary.
That being said, more flow does not necessarily equate to better cooling
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285741 is a reply to message #285724] |
Mon, 24 August 2015 11:44 |
Jon payne
Messages: 495
Registered: May 2008
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I have the flow cooler WP that I purchased from Applied GMC back in 09. After a year or so, less then 2000 miles, it started to leak out the weep hole. Back then the Flow cooler WP had only a one year warranty but being that I purchased Applied GMC, good ole JimK provide me warranty anyway (that is the kind of support you can expect from our vendors, JimK especially). Since then I put 11K miles on the 2nd one and have had no problems.
Jon Payne
76 Palm Beach
Westfield,IN
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| Re: Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285761 is a reply to message #285741] |
Mon, 24 August 2015 15:55 |
jhb1
Messages: 303
Registered: February 2004
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I put a flowkooler one on mine when I rebuilt the engine in 07 so far so good 85000 miles
Jon Payne wrote on Mon, 24 August 2015 12:44I have the flow cooler WP that I purchased from Applied GMC back in 09. After a year or so, less then 2000 miles, it started to leak out the weep hole. Back then the Flow cooler WP had only a one year warranty but being that I purchased Applied GMC, good ole JimK provide me warranty anyway (that is the kind of support you can expect from our vendors, JimK especially). Since then I put 11K miles on the 2nd one and have had no problems.
John H. Bell
77 Royale; QuadBag,Manny OneTon,Honda EV4010, FITech
Montreal Qc.
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| Re: Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285770 is a reply to message #285767] |
Mon, 24 August 2015 18:15 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
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Francois wrote on Mon, 24 August 2015 14:57Chris Tyler stated:
"More flow does not necessarily equate to better cooling"
That statement, which I had been asking myself, is the one which has held me back from purchasing a high volume water pump. I suppose it is basically about a certain question " Did GM use an iron pump because it was good enough, even though not perfect"?
I am picturing the GM auto engineers with formulas and slide rules (in the 70s) testing and then calculating coolant flow. I see no reason they could not have made the stock iron pump have a greater coolant flow for the same cost. For a given speed and temperature, the coolant has to spend a certain amount of time in the radiator, and then a certain amount of time in the engine.
Is more flow always better? I'd say not. I think I changed my mind. For my engine swap, I am going with the stock water pump.
If you manage to get one with the larger motor home impeller
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285841 is a reply to message #285695] |
Tue, 25 August 2015 18:53 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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The "correct stock one" is different or may be different than an "auto parts store stock one".
On the topic of flow--- more flow will transfer more BTU's of heat. ( ok sticklers - if you put a 300 Horsepower water pump on the system there will be increased frictional heating like in a torque converter, but I mean increased nominal circulation.) If you ever lived in an old home with hot water heat and simple manual baklite handle valves at each radiator, if you want more heat transferred into the room, you open the valve to increase the flow. There would be no case where closing the valve to slow the hot water flow and "give it more time to heat the radiator and room" would make it warmer in the room. Think about it.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285845 is a reply to message #285695] |
Tue, 25 August 2015 19:32 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
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John, I'm sounding like a busted record here. Empirically, the H/P car we played with would overheat with the thermostat housing open, but could be set to pretty much any temp within a reasonable range by installing some restriction in the housing and varying the hole size. Why? I note the local round track guys did the same.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
[Updated on: Tue, 25 August 2015 19:33] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285849 is a reply to message #285695] |
Tue, 25 August 2015 20:41 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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I knew that one would get you Emery! I'm going to use that logic to try to finally explain the same broken record to the turbo Buick guys where the myth won't die. Johnny I don't doubt that what you experienced was happening, only debating the reason for it. I think Matt addressed this a while back. Most likely cause is water pump cavitation caused by removing the stat and creating a low pressure area or eddy anywhere in the pump system where the system was designed and lab tested to run with an open stat in place during cooling high demand. This can also entice hot coolant to boil by aerating it, further propagating the problem. Once that happens it carries less heat. In extreme cases in certain engine designs the type of flow through the engine is poor at higher than designed volumes due to sharp edged castings and non smooth curves creating undedireable flow characteristics. Even a well dedigned system can exhibit oddities. The C4 Corvette LT5 by Lotus has a computer set red line rev limiter at about 7100 RPM and it is perfectly happy in the 5-7000 range all day where the power is really wonderfull, except for one thing. If you keep them over 6000 for any period of time they overheat due to water pump cavitation, which lowers the actual coolant flow.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285858 is a reply to message #285853] |
Tue, 25 August 2015 22:35 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
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USAussie wrote on Tue, 25 August 2015 21:13Emery,
The funny bit to your response was I was among the guys that got it wrong and I worked for a company that made heat exchangers and
had somehow formed the incorrect opinion!
The bottom line is that the greater the flow the more heat can be transferred!
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Emery Stora
Thank you John for your example.
I have posted many times in the past that those that assume that faster flow of the coolant will not allow it to pick up enough heat
are very much wrong
I got tired of posting the reasons that was untrue so I now usually just ignore those postings.
Hopefully those reading your reply will finally get it.
Emery I don't think there have been any physical laws repealed since I was in college. Back then, if the fluid flow rate in the heat exchanger was infinite, the heat transfer was zero. If the flow rate was zero, the heat transfer was zero. Somewhere in between is a flow rate that will transfer the maximum heat. Every other rate will transfer less heat than that maximum.
I have to guess the premise that more flow transfers more heat comes about because the water pump in a production internal combustion engine will never exceed that flow rate of maximum heat transfer, always below or at it, and never above it.
Otherwise, a higher flow rate can result in less heat transfer.
If I am wrong, someone please point me at a source that I can use to correct my erroneous understanding.
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| Re: Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285867 is a reply to message #285695] |
Wed, 26 August 2015 05:44 |
Joe Weir
Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC
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To get back to the original question, the stock pump is fine - if you can find one with the correct impeller. None of the stores here had the correct impeller.
The aluminum pump has the correct impeller, as does the stock one from Applied. I got the aluminum, but I'm funny that way. I doubt the 20% or so increase in flow exceeds the maximum heat transfer capability of the radiator.
Your mileage may vary.
If money is tight, get the stock one from one of the vendors on the list.
76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center...
Columbia, SC.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285874 is a reply to message #285858] |
Wed, 26 August 2015 08:14 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Mark,
Please tell me where I can buy a heat exchanger with an INFINITE flow rate?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of A.
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 1:36 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Water Pumps Upgrades etc
I don't think there have been any physical laws repealed since I was in college. Back then, if the fluid flow rate in the heat
exchanger was infinite, the heat transfer was zero. If the flow rate was zero, the heat transfer was zero. Somewhere in between is a
flow rate that will transfer the maximum heat. Every other rate will transfer less heat than that maximum.
I have to guess the premise that more flow transfers more heat comes about because the water pump in a production internal
combustion engine will never exceed that flow rate of maximum heat transfer, always below or at it, and never above it.
Otherwise, a higher flow rate can result in less heat transfer.
If I am wrong, someone please point me at a source that I can use to correct my erroneous understanding.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285883 is a reply to message #285695] |
Wed, 26 August 2015 09:09 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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At "infinite flow rate" you would have more than a Flow-jet and could cut out custom steel parts for Chip Foose. In theory your premise makes perfect sense because at infinity there would be no time constant in the equation for heat transfer to happen. Long long before that you would be raising the temperature of the liquid by the pump adding energy (heat) into the system. If you have a 11.5 Amp Vitamix in your kitchen you know that you can boil cold water in the blender in a matter of minutes just by the friction the blades have in the water. That's why I made that stipulation in the earlier post about nominal (attainable) flow rates we can reach in an internal combustion engine cooling system.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285917 is a reply to message #285915] |
Wed, 26 August 2015 15:33 |
Francois
Messages: 161
Registered: October 2012
Location: Southern California
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A Hamilto wrote on Wed, 26 August 2015 13:04USAussie wrote on Wed, 26 August 2015 08:14Mark,
Please tell me where I can buy a heat exchanger with an INFINITE flow rate?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic Theoretical. The point is there is a one single flow rate for maximum heat transfer, and any faster flow rate, or slower flow rate, results in LESS heat transfer.
If I am wrong, please help identify a source of information where I can correct my ignorance/stupidity.
This whole thread has been an interesting discussion. Of course, the GM engineers were not thinking about single flow rates for engines going at a certain RPM with the vehicle going at a certain speed with the air at a certain specific temperature. The system has to work at a wide range of speeds and conditions. Heat, rain, snow, wind, speed, load, etc. This kind of leads you to the conclusion that the flow rate is more governed by the thermostat than anything else - assuming you have one. Is it better to have the thermostat opening and closing? Does it open halfway? Is it preferable to have a steady flow rather than an intermittent flow brought on by the opening and closing of the thermostat?
Now I'm not sure. I went ahead and ordered the Flow Cooler pump, but will decide later on whether the stock iron pump or the aluminum will go on the rebuilt engine. I think I will look at thermostats now and analyze as best I can the factors involved.
[Updated on: Wed, 26 August 2015 15:38] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Water Pumps Upgrades etc [message #285918 is a reply to message #285915] |
Wed, 26 August 2015 15:40 |
Daniel Starks
Messages: 20
Registered: April 2015
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Heat transfer, either from the engine to the fluid, or from the fluid to
the air in the radiator, is based on the difference in temperature. The
greater the difference in temperature, the greater heat transfer. If
you have ever been outside on a cold day, I think you can appreciate
this. In the engine, the faster the fluid flows through, the less
temperature rise per unit of fluid, this is obvious. However, do not
stop there, as that unit of fluid departs, another cooler unit replaces
it. Because of the greater difference in temperature, more heat energy
is transferred. This works equally well in the radiator, but in the
opposite direction. The more volume of fluid you can move in a given
time interval the better. There is a catch, in fact two of them. In
theory, you can generate enough heat by the movement of the fluid to
reduce the cooling. I do not think we will ever be able to move the
fluid fast enough for this to be a real world problem. The other catch
is, that eventually so much energy is required to move the fluid for a
smaller and smaller gain, that it is just not worth it. This is not
likely to be a real world problem either with off the shelf water pumps
One comment on restricting cooling in race cars. The higher the
temperature a combustion engine operates at, the more power you get for
a given amount of fuel. It is a little hard on the engine, which is why
my neighbor who races professionally, changes engines between races, and
completely rebuilds them before the next meet.
Daniel
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of A.
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 2:04 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Water Pumps Upgrades etc
USAussie wrote on Wed, 26 August 2015 08:14
> Mark,
> Please tell me where I can buy a heat exchanger with an INFINITE flow
rate?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
Theoretical. The point is there is a one single flow rate for maximum
heat transfer, and any faster flow rate, or slower flow rate, results in
LESS heat transfer.
If I am wrong, please help identify a source of information where I can
correct my ignorance/stupidity.
--
'73 23' Sequoia For Sale
'73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
Upper Alabama
There will always be a demand for scapegoats. The job sucks, but the
work is steady.
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