| rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283666] |
Sat, 01 August 2015 12:16  |
budworks521
Messages: 137
Registered: October 2013
Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
Karma: 4
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All I have is a cheap volt meter but the readings were jumping from 8-11 volts. Choke was operating and I decided to lean the engine a bit to get a fully open choke. Again it sounds great until it stalls. Now my new question is my batteries are draining and I have a jumpy volt arrangement. If an alternator is failing and not charging my batteries..... not giving full voltage to the HEI.... hence stalling out....Again rookies questions.... ALWAYS SOMETHING! I need better tools and better knowledge! I should note that I took a stephscope to the fuel pump and secondary fuel pump near the tanks and they are both running....
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283680 is a reply to message #283666] |
Sat, 01 August 2015 17:20  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Bud,
Your description is a little strange.
If you have an electric choke, it only responds to how long it has had what voltage applied to it. Adjusting the carburetor will not change the choke at all.
By a jumpy voltmeter, we need to know where you are testing and when. If it is jumpy at the battery or the alternator terminal, then, you have a bad alternator.
And yes, an HEI begins getting weird at about 8 volts.
If this does not answer your questions, you could call me at 73 four 55two 35two3. That is my cell phone and be sure you tell me who you are as I don't talk to sales people for very long.
Matt
budworks521 wrote on Sat, 01 August 2015 13:16All I have is a cheap volt meter but the readings were jumping from 8-11 volts. Choke was operating and I decided to lean the engine a bit to get a fully open choke. Again it sounds great until it stalls. Now my new question is my batteries are draining and I have a jumpy volt arrangement. If an alternator is failing and not charging my batteries..... not giving full voltage to the HEI.... hence stalling out....Again rookies questions.... ALWAYS SOMETHING! I need better tools and better knowledge! I should note that I took a stephscope to the fuel pump and secondary fuel pump near the tanks and they are both running....
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283696 is a reply to message #283666] |
Sat, 01 August 2015 21:38 |
bobby5832708
Messages: 237
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winter Springs FL
Karma: 3
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Bud,
Are you sure you don't have a bad ignition switch? On my GMC I replaced the switch soon after purchase back in 2006 for the following reasons:
1. It's probably been switched on and off a million times, those contacts don't last forever.
2. It's cheap, probably no more than about $15.
3. It's pretty easy to replace, close to the base of the steering column.
4. I had one fail many years ago on the ex-wifes 1979 TransAm. It would randomly shut off and twisting the key would do nothing until you let it cool for a few minutes then the car would start and run fine for maybe an hour, maybe a half hour, maybe two hours. After the car had acted up a few times I took a guess at the switch being bad, replaced it, and opened the old one up to reveal the burnt contacts. With the new switch the car ran fine for several years afterwards, then I never saw it or the ex again (thank god).
JWID, YMMV.
Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283704 is a reply to message #283666] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 00:12 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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HEI should be fed by its own dedicated source with nothing else connected to it. Especially any heavy current (low resistance) devices (like an electric choke), or any electrically sensitive devices (radios,etc), nor any electrical noise generating devices (electric motors, solenoids,etc.)for best performance and reliability. It should have full charging system voltage present at the distributor terminal (14.3 volts). It will work with less, but like Matt said, strange things can happen below the 8 volt threshold. That's why you have to run a separate power supply wire when converting an older coil/points system to HEI. Make sure you have full charging system voltage on the HEI supply WHEN IT IS PLUGGED IN AND RUNNING. The electric choke will draw down the voltage on that wire if it is connected directly to it near the distributor.
You can use the ignition power circuit to trigger a standard relay (does not consume much current, does not generate electrical noise, and won't be especially susceptible to reverse voltage spikes [electrical backfires] from the ignition system) which will connect fused battery voltage to the electric choke.
You can also trigger the relay off the alternator output if you are using a battery isolator like the GMCs usually have. That's is the way I set mine up, so the choke only gets power when the engine is running. Triggering from the ignition circuit sends power to the choke any time the ignition is on.
The relay is only about 79 cents (to around 3 dollars for the best) from PartsExpress.com or other sources. Napa, AutoZone, O'Reillys or Advance have them too, but may not know how to look them up, depending on personnel of the day.
If you don't have full voltage, find out if using a fused jumper wire to the power terminal WITHOUT THE SWITCHED WIRE CONNECTED solves any of your problem. Keep in mind you will have to disconnect that wire to stop the engine, you will not turn it off with the key.
Measure the switched voltage at different points in the circuit all the way back to the ignition switch and the supply to the switch as well. That switch is a likely culprit for fluctuating voltage readings, especially as it is the human interface to the circuit, it is where movement is present, and a lot of current passes through there.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283706 is a reply to message #283666] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 00:42 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Todd
Sorry but I am going to disagree with some of your posting. The HEI and the electric choke both draw a little less than 1.5 amps each or 3 amps total. I have mine fused at 3 amps and have never blown the fuse. If you are dropping voltage to the HEI with a less than 3 amp combined draw, you have problems elsewhere. One place this can happen is the base of the distributor which is aluminum. It is mounted in the steel engine and over the years this electrical connection sometimes corrodes or oxidizes. Adding a ground wire from the base of the distributor to a bolt on the engine block will take care of the problem if you have it.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283709 is a reply to message #283706] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 02:13 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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That's TERRY here, Ken. Gotta be careful with that or I won't know where to go when I come back home... 
I agree on the ground wire, you don't always get a good ground connection through the distributor clamp or the fit in the block. But that will not change the amount of voltage on the supply wire. That needs full battery voltage and the wire needs to be able to carry the necessary current (please, no 18 gauge wire). Should be to be thicker than that for best performance. I can get by with speaker wire if I had to, but I wouldn't install it with that small of a wire. I would probably use at least 16 gauge (stranded) for the ground wire you mentioned, and use that to feed it, too. What goes in has gotta come out...wish the highway engineers could figure that out when they design roads.
As far as hooking the choke to that feed, I guess my choke element takes a bit more power than yours does, but I put my mess together from spare parts, and I think I robbed the choke from an ancient FORD carb, and maybe it resents being in a GM  Seriously though, I never measured the resistance of it 'cause I was just happy to get the mechanics of it working after futzing with it for about 2 hours to get it to fit well. I get a fair size spark when I connect it to power, so I knew it was going to drain that ignition feed some. Probably about a 5 or 6 amp spark, judging from experience of hooking up hundreds of car stereo systems, alarms, cruise controls, and all that aftermarket stuff.
I like that since I triggered the relay off the alternator output, the choke doesn't draw power until the engine runs. You can't do that in standard car systems because the alternator output always has power on it, even when the engine and key are off.
BTW, I'm not even using HEI on mine, I'm using the Mallory point conversion setup in the original distributor and a separate Mallory ignition amplifier and the Mallory coil that goes with it. Almost the same as a MSD setup, but it's not an E-core coil.
I don't know if Bud's setup was factory or an HEI conversion, but 8 to 11 volts is not right for an HEI (or Mallory or MSD)power feed. It really sounds like he has a converted system and the power feed is the original resistor wire that dropped the voltage to the coil when the engine is running. If that is the case, I would definitely not want to power the choke off that wire as that would drop the voltage even more.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283712 is a reply to message #283666] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 07:11 |
budworks521
Messages: 137
Registered: October 2013
Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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My wire feeding the HEI is thicker wire than the old points/condensor arrangement. 12 gauge I believe. My batteries are 4 years old and all three are drained. My two in front of the coach and the generator battery is dead. I had my choke set up on a seperate feed that was used for the temp gauge since I replaced the electric one with a sensor type one. The choke worked the same as the connection to the HEI. However, I found my engine having a harder time starting upon shutoff and restart and can't tell if it is due to the wiring of the choke to the HEI or the dead batteries. My coach started fine with a jump from my Ford Pickup. My vac has a slight twitch but otherwise strong until dying out on a stall. I really don't have much experience with electrical/mechanical/engine stuff since my area of work is home building. My carb seems better because now it holds fuel after one week of sitting! Slight progress I guess. 1/2 tank of gas, new mufflers, new module/cap/rotor, When my engine idles the engine is still no jumping around like missing or poor firing. These coaches and engines are designed for men that know their way around and I am not that man I guess. Getting close to donating it to charity! I have the choke hooked up about 5 inches from the cap with a three way connection. The choke feed wire is less gauge. I have a small amount of wiring exposed at that junction on purpose so I can read my herbie homeowner meter. It rarely stays constant, usually jumpy. I have tried grounding the meter to the engine block. Everything else around the area is aluminum/fiberglass. I guess I could drop another grand on three batteries and bump my investment in the coach to 12k! Started off at 5K. Sorry for sounding so whiney but I learned a lesson... know your mechanicals if buying a motor home. However, you fine gentlemen have been a wealth of knowledge that have soften the blows....thanks and I meaN IT
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283714 is a reply to message #283712] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 07:35 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Bud,
Hang in there....
Before you do anything else, charge all three batteries.
We still have to find your line voltage instability.
Do you have the manuals?? If no, they can be downloaded. As you are clearly literate and would seem to have an IQ over 80, you are already ahead of many of those you could end up paying to get work done on the coach. These things were build back when one could still use simple tools and plain logic to do an effective diagnosis. You can do it too. We are here to help. If I lived an hour closer, I would come by.
Matt
budworks521 wrote on Sun, 02 August 2015 08:11My wire feeding the HEI is thicker wire than the old points/condensor arrangement. 12 gauge I believe. My batteries are 4 years old and all three are drained. My two in front of the coach and the generator battery is dead. I had my choke set up on a seperate feed that was used for the temp gauge since I replaced the electric one with a sensor type one. The choke worked the same as the connection to the HEI. However, I found my engine having a harder time starting upon shutoff and restart and can't tell if it is due to the wiring of the choke to the HEI or the dead batteries. My coach started fine with a jump from my Ford Pickup. My vac has a slight twitch but otherwise strong until dying out on a stall. I really don't have much experience with electrical/mechanical/engine stuff since my area of work is home building. My carb seems better because now it holds fuel after one week of sitting! Slight progress I guess. 1/2 tank of gas, new mufflers, new module/cap/rotor, When my engine idles the engine is still no jumping around like missing or poor firing. These coaches and engines are designed for men that know their way around and I am not that man I guess. Getting close to donating it to charity! I have the choke hooked up about 5 inches from the cap with a three way connection. The choke feed wire is less gauge. I have a small amount of wiring exposed at that junction on purpose so I can read my herbie homeowner meter. It rarely stays constant, usually jumpy. I have tried grounding the meter to the engine block. Everything else around the area is aluminum/fiberglass. I guess I could drop another grand on three batteries and bump my investment in the coach to 12k! Started off at 5K. Sorry for sounding so whiney but I learned a lesson... know your mechanicals if buying a motor home. However, you fine gentlemen have been a wealth of knowledge that have soften the blows....thanks and I meaN IT
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283718 is a reply to message #283666] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 10:00 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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seeing that you have a 74, i assume this was an HEI conversion?
The original points type hot lead would have had a ballast resister in line, and would not see full voltage. An HEI will work at reduced voltage but not as well
Unless you had tested it before and seen full voltage, that would be my bet.
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283722 is a reply to message #283666] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 11:29 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Back to basics. Is the meter good or giving false readings. Once proven good you should have approx 14VDC actoss the batteries with engine running. If not, you need to get the charging system sorted or all other diagnostic steps will be a waste of time.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283729 is a reply to message #283666] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 11:43 |
budworks521
Messages: 137
Registered: October 2013
Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
Karma: 4
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I might be pushing 90 IQ maybe a little higher! Ok I will look at the manual a little closer and see how to test an altenator and I'll pull the two 750 cca marine batteries and throw them on a charger over the week. I will also swap out the linkage back to the original temp line for a choke voltage line and have a dedicated line for the HEI. My choke worked fine off the line feeding the old temp gauge. So I must determine if my charging system is constant and proper. If the battery is only running 9 volts due to a weak battery my reading should be the same. I did a "systems check" on my panel by the door and it read 9 volts on the batteries after shutting down the engine. Probably worse now. Thanks
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283730 is a reply to message #283718] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 11:45 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Whoa! Chris just hit on something I did not think of. Are you sure it is HEI? How many thick black wires are coming out of the top of the distributor? 8 or 9?
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283732 is a reply to message #283666] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 11:45 |
budworks521
Messages: 137
Registered: October 2013
Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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btw, pretty sure the old owner before me swapped for a new ignition thou I like that idea as well. Thanks again guys
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283733 is a reply to message #283666] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 11:47 |
budworks521
Messages: 137
Registered: October 2013
Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
Karma: 4
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It's a Dick Paterson HEI which has a total report on timing etc after different levels of RPMS and degrees of TDC. Just 8 ignition wires, module, inside mount coil.
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283734 is a reply to message #283733] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 11:52 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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budworks521 wrote on Sun, 02 August 2015 11:47It's a Dick Paterson HEI which has a total report on timing etc after different levels of RPMS and degrees of TDC. Just 8 ignition wires, module, inside mount coil.
Ok. You are correct then. It definitely is HEI.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283737 is a reply to message #283735] |
Sun, 02 August 2015 12:06 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Charging system battery voltage with good, charged batteries should be 13.8 to 14.3 volts with the engine running. Good condition, resting voltage of an automotive lead-acid 6 cell battery should be 12.6 volts (Specific gravity of electrolyte at 1.265). Airplane batteries with a higher specific gravity (1.285) would rest at 12.8 volts. Rest voltage measurements 1/2 hour after charging.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283855 is a reply to message #283666] |
Mon, 03 August 2015 16:19 |
budworks521
Messages: 137
Registered: October 2013
Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
Karma: 4
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OK so I just got one fully charged and working on the second one. How does a guy know if the altenator is charging the battery. Let's say the generator light is not on in the dash??? Can I detect a bad or semi bad alt. easily? I will read the manual just looking for other hints. Maybe this whole time my voltage drop was the cause of stalling thou I had multiple items wrong on the engine in regards to other stuff. When it rains it pours!
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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| Re: rehooked choke to HEI feed per suggestion [message #283878 is a reply to message #283855] |
Mon, 03 August 2015 21:37 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Start the engine an let it idle. Read the voltage at the center post on the isolator. Use the aluminum plate the isolator is mounted on for the ground lead of your meter. Then read the voltage on the upper terminal followed by the lower terminal. Use the aluminum plate as the ground for all readings. The center terminal should read around 14.7 volts while the top and lower terminals should read 13.8 to 14.2 volts.
If you are far off of these readings, post what you read and we will give you more steps to follow from there.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Charge those batteries and then check the charging system! If they are not getting charged with a running engine, it will cut off when the voltage drops.