Now I really realize I'm in over my head. I only understand parts of this. So let me work on getting the pin extended. How do I remove the metal pin from the black sleeve that is about 1" in diameter that holds the metal pin?

Ken: Thanks for taking the time to write this up. I know it's time consuming.

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 8:28 AM
To: GMCNet
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Disc brake project still in failure mode

"...can't be this hard." Sorry, but Yes, it can. When I, with the help of highly experienced GMCers Bobby Moore and JR Slaten, installed Eldorado rear discs in 2001, we probably pumped 3+ quarts of fluid through the system before eliminating all the air. Many have encountered worse. I've used "pump & hold", Vacuum at bleeder, Pressure bleeder, and System vacuum on various installations. They've all worked, eventually, but not one has been easy.

First about that 0.100" pushrod clearance (actually, more like 0.120"):
Because of the "pedal ratio" (the length of the pedal arm vs the length of the bell crank that actually pushes on the booster/master cylinder), which is somewhere around 6:1, Add the minimum 0.005" clearance the pushrod should have had before you moved the bracket to the 0.120" and you have 1/8" pushrod clearance MINIMUM. The result is that the pushrod clearance allows the pedal to go down about 3/4" before you even begin to try to apply the brakes. And there is some other play in the system, such as the input clevis on the bellcrank and in the cross-shaft bushings. 3/4" is probably the minimum pedal play you'll see.

Then, before the brakes begin to apply, there's the "slop" in the brakes
themselves:

1. The calipers are designed so that the rubber seals retract the pistons a tiny bit via hysteresis. That's intended to keep the brakes from dragging. I don't think any of us know what that distance is, but remember that it's present at 6 locations, and is amplified by the hydraulic advantage of the system. I don't know that number off hand but it's on the order of 10:1. So, if each caliper moves only 0.005", that's 0.050" at the MC, multiplied by that 6:1 pedal ratio, giving another 0.300" -- over 1/4"
added to your 3/4", or 1" free play.

2. Then there's disc runout. We'd like the rotor to have NO axial runout
-- but every one of them does. And on old equipment like our GMC's, it can be quite significant, even when one has installed new discs, as you did with the Manny Brakes. I've done several of those upgrades and have used a dial indicator to measure the runout. It has not proven unusual to see 0.010", especially if special care is not taken to clean ALL the rust off of the hub where the rotor mounts. If you see more than 0.005" runout on any rotor, it needs correction for optimal brake performance. Remember:
runout causes kick-back of the caliper pistons exactly like in 1., preceding.

3. Finally, there's the inevitable axial rotor movement due to wheel bearing clearance. There shouldn't be much of that at the front wheels, but the middle and rear wheels WILL have some. Manual X7525 specifies 0.001"-0.005" -- I, and many others prefer the 0.005" or more and it's likely that most have at least 0.005". That end play is likewise amplified by the system putting the pedal still lower.

My own brake pedal, even with the newly installed Hydroboost, probably goes down ​ ​1" before achieving any significant braking. I've driven only one GMC that did better; it also had Hydroboost and had been worked on very intently by Bob Stone and probably had 1/2"+ play. If you can make a moderately fast stop with 1/2 pedal, you're probably in pretty good shape.
But you're going to have to fix that push rod to have any chance of getting there.

JMHO,

Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL, Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 7:23 AM, Neil Fonville wrote:

> I have not lengthen the push rod at this point. I feel the .010 gap
> when beginning to push the pedal. I guess I'm clueless on the braking
> system because I don't understand how .010 gap can lead to 2/3 of the
> pedal stroke before braking action occurs? Or the pedal being soft?
>
> I'm very frustrated at this point and must find some on hands help. I
> spent about 20 hours installing the kit. 60 trying to bleed it and get
> the MC replaced. Can't be this hard.
>
> Neil
>
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I have not lengthen the push rod at this point. I feel the .010 gap when
beginning to push the pedal. I guess I'm clueless on the braking system
because I don't understand how .010 gap can lead to 2/3 of the pedal
stroke before braking action occurs? Or the pedal being soft?

I'm very frustrated at this point and must find some on hands help. I
spent about 20 hours installing the kit. 60 trying to bleed it and get the
MC replaced. Can't be this hard.

Neil

So today I created a new pin that is the correct length. I did find it helped some but not as much as I hoped. I ran out of time for more troubleshooting but I did learn the rears are not working at all. After driving a bit and applying the brakes numerous times, I took a temperature reading on all six rotors. The fronts were hot and not touchable at 140+ degrees. All four rears were ambient at 100. That tells me I have the front working and need to troubleshoot the rear. I will apply the pressure gauge on the rear next.

Neil

Update: Went out today and installed the pressure gauge on the Right
Front Rear Caliper. Best pressure reading we saw was about 300 psi. So I
installed the gauge at the MC and was getting 800-900psi. Reinstalled in
the Right front rear caliper and bleed good. Best we got was 400psi. Is
it the combination valve causing me a problem?

I have replaced the valve with what I thought was a PV4 for Disc/Disc
conversions. I did pick this up from a local shop with no markings or
paperwork. I had the PV2 which I removed and replaced with this PV4. Did
I get the wrong part or defective? Is the PV4 the best option?

Thanks,
Neil


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Update: Went out today and installed the pressure gauge on the Right Front Rear Caliper. Best pressure reading we saw was about 300 psi. So I installed the gauge at the MC and was getting 800-900psi. Reinstalled in the Right front rear caliper and bleed good. Best we got was 400psi. Is it the combination valve causing me a problem?

I have replaced the valve with what I thought was a PV4 for Disc/Disc conversions. I did pick this up from a local shop with no markings or paperwork. I had the PV2 which I removed and replaced with this PV4. Did I get the wrong part or defective? Is the PV4 the best option?

Thanks,
Neil

I did not read the front pressure because the fronts are solid and seem to be working. Since I had the front working, no leaks, etc I did not want to open that part of the system up. Not really sure why that would tell me more? 800-900PSI at the MC and 300-400PSI at the caliper. Huge loss somewhere in the rear system and the combination value seems likely. From what I have read, the PV2 value will cut the pressure by 1/2 within a certain range. I¹m thinking I got sold the PV2 instead of the PV4 when I replaced it.