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The answers to Kerry's manifold holes [message #281526] Sun, 05 July 2015 20:06 Go to next message
kerry pinkerton is currently offline  kerry pinkerton   United States
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
Senior Member
If you don't know what hole I'm talking about, read this thread:

http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&th=34552&start=0&rid=2555

OK, I found these holes because I was chasing a vacuum leak that had to be in the intake, intake gaskets, or carb. The motor had low (13) inches of vacuum, ran rough, and ran better with the choke partially closed, indicating a lean condition. Changing the mixture screws on the carb has no impact. The carb is a BRAND NEW Patterson and I doubt that is the problem. I was wondering if I had a crack in the manifold when I spotted the holes. You may remember I had a burned exhaust valve (#7) and had no explanation. After stumping Ken Henderson, Chuck Boyd, and Bob Dunahugh, I called Jim Hupy. Before I even finished describing things he said:

You've got a California EGR manifold, probably off a Toronado. I'd throw that thing as far as you can. My EGR has a block off plate and I never even thought about it or noticed the holes before. Apparently the block off plate gasket has sprung a leak and is allowing outside air to be sucked into the intake. Hence the lower vacuum and the lean condition. The lean condition is probably the reason that I burned the valve in #7.

Today, my compression readings vary from 200 PSI to 188 PSI...pretty dang good.

My first inclination was to pull the block off plate and replace the gasket. The two 5/16 bolts are rusted in place and the heads are rounded. It isn't going to come off easy and I'd prefer not to pull the intake until I KNOW this is the source of the vacuum leak. I'm thinking I will drill and tap for a 1/2" pipe plug, stake the threads and put them in with non-removable high heat thread locker. If that solves the low vacuum and rough running problems I'll know that is the problem. I can then decide if the pipe plugs are permanent enough. I absolutely CANNOT take the chance of one of the plugs coming out and finding it's way down to an intake valve and taking out the engine. CANNOT! So I've got to be 100% POSITIVE that the solution is permanent.

Here are some options.

1- Braze or TIG weld (Tack)the pipe plugs in place. The wall thickness of the holes appears to be about 1/8" so I'm concerned about getting enough threads to seal and also will have to be careful not to over tighten the tapered pipe thread so I don't crack the cast iron. I can tack the plugs with the manifold on the engine but it will be a pain to get the equipment close enough.

2- Cut off the EGR blocking plate and pour the passage with water jacket filler or epoxe or ????

3- Replace the manifold with another cast iron (non-EGR) or an Eldebrock. Anyone got a good 403 manifold?

4- ??????? PLEASE let me have your thoughts!!!



Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
Re: The answers to Kerry's manifold holes [message #281530 is a reply to message #281526] Sun, 05 July 2015 21:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
winter is currently offline  winter   United States
Messages: 247
Registered: September 2007
Location: MPLS MN
Karma: 0
Senior Member
I have a few 403 toronado manifolds if you need one. I was just looking at throwing them in the steel bin this afternoon.

Jerrod Winter
1977 Palm Beach
Green Jelly Bean
Twin Cities, Minnesota
Re: The answers to Kerry's manifold holes [message #281531 is a reply to message #281526] Sun, 05 July 2015 21:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerry pinkerton is currently offline  kerry pinkerton   United States
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
Senior Member
Please hold on to them until I get going Jerrod. I'm going to try and find one closer. I shipped a 455 manifold the other day and it's expensive and heavy.

Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
Re: The answers to Kerry's manifold holes [message #281536 is a reply to message #281526] Sun, 05 July 2015 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wally is currently offline  wally   United States
Messages: 643
Registered: August 2004
Location: Omaha Nebraska
Karma: 5
Senior Member
kerry pinkerton wrote on Sun, 05 July 2015 20:06
If you don't know what hole I'm talking about, read this thread:

http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&th=34552&start=0&rid=2555

OK, I found these holes because I was chasing a vacuum leak that had to be in the intake, intake gaskets, or carb. The motor had low (13) inches of vacuum, ran rough, and ran better with the choke partially closed, indicating a lean condition. Changing the mixture screws on the carb has no impact. The carb is a BRAND NEW Patterson and I doubt that is the problem. I was wondering if I had a crack in the manifold when I spotted the holes. You may remember I had a burned exhaust valve (#7) and had no explanation. After stumping Ken Henderson, Chuck Boyd, and Bob Dunahugh, I called Jim Hupy. Before I even finished describing things he said:

You've got a California EGR manifold, probably off a Toronado. I'd throw that thing as far as you can. My EGR has a block off plate and I never even thought about it or noticed the holes before. Apparently the block off plate gasket has sprung a leak and is allowing outside air to be sucked into the intake. Hence the lower vacuum and the lean condition. The lean condition is probably the reason that I burned the valve in #7.

Today, my compression readings vary from 200 PSI to 188 PSI...pretty dang good.

My first inclination was to pull the block off plate and replace the gasket. The two 5/16 bolts are rusted in place and the heads are rounded. It isn't going to come off easy and I'd prefer not to pull the intake until I KNOW this is the source of the vacuum leak. I'm thinking I will drill and tap for a 1/2" pipe plug, stake the threads and put them in with non-removable high heat thread locker. If that solves the low vacuum and rough running problems I'll know that is the problem. I can then decide if the pipe plugs are permanent enough. I absolutely CANNOT take the chance of one of the plugs coming out and finding it's way down to an intake valve and taking out the engine. CANNOT! So I've got to be 100% POSITIVE that the solution is permanent.

Here are some options.

1- Braze or TIG weld (Tack)the pipe plugs in place. The wall thickness of the holes appears to be about 1/8" so I'm concerned about getting enough threads to seal and also will have to be careful not to over tighten the tapered pipe thread so I don't crack the cast iron. I can tack the plugs with the manifold on the engine but it will be a pain to get the equipment close enough.

2- Cut off the EGR blocking plate and pour the passage with water jacket filler or epoxe or ????

3- Replace the manifold with another cast iron (non-EGR) or an Eldebrock. Anyone got a good 403 manifold?

4- ??????? PLEASE let me have your thoughts!!!


Kerry, a while back guys were filling the crossover with Aluminum or zinc. That might be overkill for egr passages. Ken Henderson posted about filling with zinc. I wonder if jacket filler would be abrasive if it got loose. You could plug the holes and test to see if they are indeed a leak before going permanent. Whoever plated over the egr valve should have plugged the orifice that goes into the crossover.


Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook
Re: The answers to Kerry's manifold holes [message #281537 is a reply to message #281526] Sun, 05 July 2015 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
winter is currently offline  winter   United States
Messages: 247
Registered: September 2007
Location: MPLS MN
Karma: 0
Senior Member
I'll check what my cost for shipping is tomorrow. Do you have access to a dock?

Jerrod Winter
1977 Palm Beach
Green Jelly Bean
Twin Cities, Minnesota
Re: The answers to Kerry's manifold holes [message #281538 is a reply to message #281537] Sun, 05 July 2015 21:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerry pinkerton is currently offline  kerry pinkerton   United States
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
Senior Member
winter wrote on Sun, 05 July 2015 21:30
...Do you have access to a dock?


I have a forklift Jerrod.


Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
Re: The answers to Kerry's manifold holes [message #281539 is a reply to message #281526] Sun, 05 July 2015 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerry pinkerton is currently offline  kerry pinkerton   United States
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
Senior Member
I'm concerned about an air tight plug and am not sure that filling it with zinc or aluminum or the concrete water block would expand and contract at the same rate as the manifold and therefore not stop the vacuum leak.

What about filling the passage with a high temp silicone? I'm not sure that would seal a vacuum leak either. I can clean the cone around the hole on the top but the inner passage is probably full of carbon...

The pipe thread will certainly work for a short term test but it scares me for a long term solution. If it backed out and went downstream it would eat the engine.

If I (WE) can come up with a SAFE permanent solution that keeps me from pulling the manifold, I'm for it. Otherwise I'll be replacing the manifold with Jerrod's or another one closer.


Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
Re: The answers to Kerry's manifold holes [message #281547 is a reply to message #281526] Mon, 06 July 2015 07:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SeanKidd is currently offline  SeanKidd   United States
Messages: 747
Registered: June 2012
Location: Northern Neck Virginia
Karma: 4
Senior Member
Kerry, I know it sound a little, shade tree, but a dollop of hi-temp exhaust sealant would do the trick, and if you find one with a long applicator, you could squeeze some in the hole, it will never come out.

Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, P.Huber TBs, 3.70:1 LSD Honda 6500 inverter gen.
Colonial Travelers
Re: The answers to Kerry's manifold holes [message #281549 is a reply to message #281526] Mon, 06 July 2015 07:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larry is currently offline  Larry   United States
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
Senior Member
Kerry,
Look at this and the next 4 pics in that album. JFWIW

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/cad-500-intake-manifold/p12343.html


Larry Smile
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
Re: The answers to Kerry's manifold holes [message #281557 is a reply to message #281549] Mon, 06 July 2015 09:39 Go to previous message
thesmith is currently offline  thesmith   United States
Messages: 589
Registered: February 2015
Location: Cary, NC
Karma: 6
Senior Member
If the manifold is off the motor I'd be tempted to simply drill and tap them and add set screw secured with High temp LOCTITE 2620.

Cary, NC 1978 Center Kitchen Royale.
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