Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » How much oil will our filters flow (But wait...there's more)
| How much oil will our filters flow [message #281433] |
Sat, 04 July 2015 09:13  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Woke up at 3:30 and got to thinking...I hate when that happens. Then I started looking for information.
Regarding this whole sudden infant engine death, oil cooler, oil filter bypass, high volume oil pump thing that we've been kicking around recently. Rob Muller has been saying for some time that if oil went to the cooler it HAD to come back to the filter. What finally clicked for me, and some others, was the realization that the oil filter bypass valve would open at about 6 PSI differential pressure and UNFILTERED OIL WOULD GO BACK TO THE ENGINE. Rob has designed a test scenario and Tom Pryor is going to execute it on a test stand motor.
HOWEVER, what got me thinking this morning is what kinds of things cause differential pressure. We know the oil cooler and lines have some restrictions and clearly the oil filter does also. What we don't know, at least what I was unable to find this morning, was any data that tells how much volume our standard oil pump puts out and how much various oil filters can flow. I did find that the basic Melling High Volume pump is 20% more than stock.
If we are under the suspicion that the bypass is open frequently, then a high volume oil pump will make this worse!!!! Guess what I put in last summer?
Plus, I suspect that there are oil filters and there are oil filters in terms of filtration and flow capability. I found this article about oil pumps
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-0911-small-block-chevy-oil-pumps/
But the links to the results time out.
I also looked for specifications on my AC PF-24 filter for what it will flow but had no luck. I can call someone after the holiday.
So here are the questions rattling around in my head this morning:
1- What is the flow rate (volume) of the standard pump?
2- What is the rated flow rate of various filters?
If our filters can't handle the volume it's obviously going to increase the differential pressure and increase the time the bypass is open. High volume pumps will probably make this worse I think.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: How much oil will our filters flow [message #281435 is a reply to message #281433] |
Sat, 04 July 2015 09:39  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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OK, so I found max flow rate for the WIX version of the PF24 and others and it appears that 9-11 GPM is the magic number. Obviously that would be a clean filter. As it trapped stuff it would have to flow less. So what is the volume of our standard oil pump? If it's more than 10 GPM than at 40 PSI it isn't going to take much to open the bypass and, again, the HV pump with it's 20% more volume will only make that worse.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow [message #281445 is a reply to message #281435] |
Sat, 04 July 2015 12:02 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Kerry,
I don't thing that flow rate means anything without a corresponding drop
across the filter -- which is really the parameter we're interested in.
Perhaps the SAE standards Bob mentioned have those specs.?
And I'm not sure the HV pump will have a significant effect: The various
restrictions in the engine, including the filter and cooler, are probably
going to be enough to raise the pressure of either a standard or HV pump to
the bypass pressure of the pump's internal "regulator" so that the filter
and bypass will see the same pressure with either.
That's not to say the HV doesn't have an effect on the circulation of oil
and carried contaminants: All the oil that flows through the pump bypass
has to come out of the oil pan, so it's already been through the moving
parts and passages, regardless of whether it's been through the filter.
Continuing that thought, though: If we assume that the OEM and HV pumps
have the same regulated pressure, and that either is capable of supplying
more than the engine's needs at that pressure, then both of them will be
bypassing internally; the HV more than the OEM. Since the bypass dumps
right back into the oil pan, that's just churning the pan's contents, not
adding to the circulation of oil and abrasives through the moving parts of
the engine.
I think there's a point in there somewhere! :-)
Ken H.
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Kerry Pinkerton
wrote:
> OK, so I found max flow rate for the WIX version of the PF24 and others
> and it appears that 9-11 GPM is the magic number. Obviously that would be a
> clean filter. As it trapped stuff it would have to flow less. So what is
> the volume of our standard oil pump? If it's more than 10 GPM than at 40
> PSI it isn't going to take much to open the bypass and, again, the HV pump
> with it's 20% more volume will only make that worse.
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow [message #281475 is a reply to message #281445] |
Sat, 04 July 2015 22:21 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I just got an email from Tom advising GOOD news! The oil pump in his 455 is a Melling M-22FHV - HIGH VOLUME pump so we'll be testing
the worst case scenario.
http://omnitek.co/mellingcatalog/#ag/part/M-22FHV/from/make%3Doldsmobile%252COldsmobile%26model%3Dtoronado%252CToronado%26year%3D197
5%252C1975%26engine%3D8cyl%252520455cid%252C8Cyl%252520455Cid/1
Does anyone have a spare oil filter base; we need to modify one to be able to change the bypass valve spring setting while the is
engine running and I want to install a temperature sensor and fittings we can connect to a PSID gage.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Kerry,
I don't thing that flow rate means anything without a corresponding drop
across the filter -- which is really the parameter we're interested in.
Perhaps the SAE standards Bob mentioned have those specs.?
And I'm not sure the HV pump will have a significant effect: The various
restrictions in the engine, including the filter and cooler, are probably
going to be enough to raise the pressure of either a standard or HV pump to
the bypass pressure of the pump's internal "regulator" so that the filter
and bypass will see the same pressure with either.
That's not to say the HV doesn't have an effect on the circulation of oil
and carried contaminants: All the oil that flows through the pump bypass
has to come out of the oil pan, so it's already been through the moving
parts and passages, regardless of whether it's been through the filter.
Continuing that thought, though: If we assume that the OEM and HV pumps
have the same regulated pressure, and that either is capable of supplying
more than the engine's needs at that pressure, then both of them will be
bypassing internally; the HV more than the OEM. Since the bypass dumps
right back into the oil pan, that's just churning the pan's contents, not
adding to the circulation of oil and abrasives through the moving parts of
the engine.
I think there's a point in there somewhere! :-)
Ken H.
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Kerry Pinkerton
wrote:
> OK, so I found max flow rate for the WIX version of the PF24 and others
> and it appears that 9-11 GPM is the magic number. Obviously that would be a
> clean filter. As it trapped stuff it would have to flow less. So what is
> the volume of our standard oil pump? If it's more than 10 GPM than at 40
> PSI it isn't going to take much to open the bypass and, again, the HV pump
> with it's 20% more volume will only make that worse.
> --
>
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow [message #281476 is a reply to message #281445] |
Sat, 04 July 2015 22:25 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I may have a filter base; I'll check tomorrow.
Ken H.
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 11:21 PM, Robert Mueller
wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I just got an email from Tom advising GOOD news! The oil pump in his 455
> is a Melling M-22FHV - HIGH VOLUME pump so we'll be testing
> the worst case scenario.
>
>
> http://omnitek.co/mellingcatalog/#ag/part/M-22FHV/from/make%3Doldsmobile%252COldsmobile%26model%3Dtoronado%252CToronado%26year%3D197
> 5%252C1975%26engine%3D8cyl%252520455cid%252C8Cyl%252520455Cid/1
>
> Does anyone have a spare oil filter base; we need to modify one to be able
> to change the bypass valve spring setting while the is
> engine running and I want to install a temperature sensor and fittings we
> can connect to a PSID gage.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Henderson
>
> Kerry,
>
> I don't thing that flow rate means anything without a corresponding drop
> across the filter -- which is really the parameter we're interested in.
> Perhaps the SAE standards Bob mentioned have those specs.?
>
> And I'm not sure the HV pump will have a significant effect: The various
> restrictions in the engine, including the filter and cooler, are probably
> going to be enough to raise the pressure of either a standard or HV pump to
> the bypass pressure of the pump's internal "regulator" so that the filter
> and bypass will see the same pressure with either.
>
> That's not to say the HV doesn't have an effect on the circulation of oil
> and carried contaminants: All the oil that flows through the pump bypass
> has to come out of the oil pan, so it's already been through the moving
> parts and passages, regardless of whether it's been through the filter.
> Continuing that thought, though: If we assume that the OEM and HV pumps
> have the same regulated pressure, and that either is capable of supplying
> more than the engine's needs at that pressure, then both of them will be
> bypassing internally; the HV more than the OEM. Since the bypass dumps
> right back into the oil pan, that's just churning the pan's contents, not
> adding to the circulation of oil and abrasives through the moving parts of
> the engine.
>
> I think there's a point in there somewhere! :-)
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Kerry Pinkerton
> wrote:
>
>> OK, so I found max flow rate for the WIX version of the PF24 and others
>> and it appears that 9-11 GPM is the magic number. Obviously that would
> be a
>> clean filter. As it trapped stuff it would have to flow less. So what
> is
>> the volume of our standard oil pump? If it's more than 10 GPM than at 40
>> PSI it isn't going to take much to open the bypass and, again, the HV
> pump
>> with it's 20% more volume will only make that worse.
>> --
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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> _______________________________________________
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>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: How much oil will our filters flow [message #281482 is a reply to message #281433] |
Sun, 05 July 2015 00:16 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Hi All
I would like to add a comment to the discussion that might have an impact on the interpretations and the tests you are doing.
Has anyone really checked the Oil Pump and how it controls pressure? (There are stated assumptions that the oil pump dumps the excess oil back into the oil pan.)
Im pretty sure the Oil Pump does NOT dump oil back into the oil pan. It feeds the output back into the input side of the pump. (Circulates through the pump) The oil pump really does not increase the flow of oil through the cooler / filter. The actual flow of oil through the system is totally controlled by the amount that "Leaks" out the oil passages . This means that the actual GPM of oil flowing is less than what might be expected. (in a fuly open ended system) Lower flow rates would mean that the pressure drop accross the the filter / cooler may not be as high as assumed. The filter / cooler system is also using 1/2 inch tubing (significantly larger than the oil passages in the engine itself) That would also mean that the preasure drop across the filter / cooler would be significantly less. (Exactly the same as using large gauge wires in low current electrical systems)
Best Regards
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow [message #281485 is a reply to message #281482] |
Sun, 05 July 2015 03:00 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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John,
Comments below in CAPS for clarity, I'm not shouting.
Regards,
Rob M
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of John Heslinga
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:16 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow
Hi All
I would like to add a comment to the discussion that might have an impact on the interpretations and the tests you are doing.
Has anyone really checked the Oil Pump and how it controls pressure? (There are stated assumptions that the oil pump dumps the
excess oil back into the oil pan.)
I'm pretty sure the Oil Pump does NOT dump oil back into the oil pan. It feeds the output back into the input side of the pump.
(Circulates through the pump)
I AGREE I JUST UPLOADED THIS PHOTO OF THE OIL PUMP WITH THE GEARS REMOVED AND ANNOTATED WHAT I BELIEVE THE OIL PUMP RELIEF VALVE
FLOW PATH TO BE.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58337-oil-pump-relief-flow-path.html
AFTER I ANNOTATED THE PHOTO ABOVE I FOUND THESE TWO PHOTOS THAT BOB DREWES POSTED WHICH CLEARLY SHOW THE OIL FLOW PATH WHEN THE
RELIEF VALVE IS OPEN:
OIL PUMP RELIEF VALVE CLOSED: http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/mechanical/p50100-pv-closed.html
OIL PUMP RELIEF VALVE HALF OPEN: http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/mechanical/p50101-pv-half-open.html
IT DOES NOT DUMP INTO THE OIL PAN IT LOOPS BACK TO THE OIL PUMP INLET.
IN ADDITION HERE'S A LINK TO THE MELLING WEBSITE FOR THE M22FHV PUMP:
TINY URL: http://tinyurl.com/ne6rznz
FULL URL:
http://omnitek.co/mellingcatalog/#ag/part/M-22F/from/make%3Doldsmobile%252COldsmobile%26model%3Dtoronado%252CToronado%26year%3D1975%
252C1975%26engine%3D8cyl%2525207.5%252520455cid%252C8Cyl%2525207.5%252520455Cid/1
THERE ARE THREE VIEWS AND AS YOU CAN SEE THERE ARE ONLY TWO PORTS
1) THE FLANGE THAT BOLTS TO NUMBER 5 MAIN BEARING CAP
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/texas/p57446-crankshaft.html
2) THE ROUND PORT THE INLET SCREEN FITS INTO
THERE IS NO PORT FOR THE OIL TO DUMP BACK INTO THE OIL PAN.
The oil pump really does not increase the flow of oil through the cooler / filter.
I THINK YOU MEAN THE OIL PUMP REALLY DOES NOT CONTROL THE OIL FLOW THROUGH THE COOLER / FILTER.
The actual flow of oil through the system is totally controlled by the amount that "Leaks" out the oil passages.
AGREE: MELLING VIDEO (LINK BELOW) DEMONSTRATES WHAT YOU'VE NOTED ABOVE CLEARLY:
http://www.mellingengine.com/Tech-Support/Tech-Tip-Videos
SCROLL DOWN TO: Oil Pump Pressure vs. Flow
THE OIL FLOW IS CONTROLLED BY CLEARANCES IN THE ENGINE.
This means that the actual GPM of oil flowing is less than what might be expected. (in a fully open ended system) Lower flow rates
would mean that the pressure drop accross the the filter / cooler may not be as high as assumed. The filter / cooler system is also
using 1/2 inch tubing (significantly larger than the oil passages in the engine itself) That would also mean that the pressure drop
across the filter / cooler would be significantly less. (Exactly the same as using large gauge wires in low current electrical
systems)
AGREE; HOWEVER, FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DETERMINE THE OIL FILTER BASE FOR THE TORONADO AND GMC WERE THE SAME. THE TORONADO
RADIATOR DID NOT HAVE AN OIL COOLER IN IT. THEREFORE ONLY THE OIL FILTER CREATED A PRESSURE DROP ACROSS THE BYPASS VALVE IN THE OIL
FILTER BASE. THE GMC ADDED THE OIL COOLER ADAPTER, 4 1/2 FEET OF LINE TO THE OIL COOLER, AN OIL COOLER, 4 1/2 FEET OF LINE BACK TO
THE OIL COOLING ADAPTER. THE FLOW HAVING TO GO THROUGH THOSE ADDITIONAL COMPONENTS WOULD ADD RESISTANCE TO THE FLOW AND CREATE
ADDITIONAL PRESSURE DROP. THE TESTING I HAVE PROPOSED IS TO DETERMINE IF THE 5.3 TO 6.3 SETTING OF THE BYPASS VALVE IS SUFFICIENT TO
KEEP IT CLOSED DURING NORMAL ENGINE OPERATION.
THE TESTS WILL BE PERFORMED ON A NEWLY REBUILT ENGINE SERVICED WITH ROTELLA T 15W-40 OIL, ADDITIONAL ZDDP; AND A WIX 51049 FILTER.
THE ENGINE WILL BE RUN FOR 20 MINUTES AT 2000 RPM TO BREAK IN THE CAM. AFTERWARDS THE OIL WILL BE DRAINED, THE OIL FILTER WILL BE
REMOVED, CUT OPEN, THE FILTER MEDIA UNFOLDED AND INSPECTED FOR CONTAMINATION. A SAMPLE OF THE BREAK IN OIL WILL BE SENT TO
BLACKSTONE.
THE ENGINE WILL BE REFILLED WITH SHELL ROTELLA T 10W-40, ADDITIONAL ZDDP, AND A NEW WIX 51049 OIL FILTER WITH FILTER MAGS ATTACHED
TO IT. PRESSURE DROP READINGS ACROSS THE OIL FILTER BASE BYPASS VALVE WILL BE TAKEN AS WELL AS PRESSURE DROP READINGS FROM THE
OUTLET OF THE OIL COOLER ADAPTER TO THE OIL COOLER AND BACK TO THE OIL COOLER ADAPTER. FLOW READINGS WILL ALSO BE TAKEN.
THESE TESTS WILL DETERMINE IF THE BYPASS VALVE SETTING OF 5.3 TO 6.3 PSI IS CORRECT FOR OUR GMC'S OR NOT.
Best Regards
John
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow [message #281490 is a reply to message #281485] |
Sun, 05 July 2015 09:13 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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John, Rob,
I agree with you both -- I was dead wrong in my statement about the pump
dumping back into the pan. That comment was made without really thinking
about what I was saying! Obviously, recirculating excess oil rather than
"passing it on" creates an entirely different situation. Sorry 'bout that!
Ken H.
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 4:01 AM, Robert Mueller
wrote:
> John,
>
> Comments below in CAPS for clarity, I'm not shouting.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of John
> Heslinga
> Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:16 PM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow
>
> Hi All
>
> I would like to add a comment to the discussion that might have an impact
> on the interpretations and the tests you are doing.
>
> Has anyone really checked the Oil Pump and how it controls pressure?
> (There are stated assumptions that the oil pump dumps the
> excess oil back into the oil pan.)
>
> I'm pretty sure the Oil Pump does NOT dump oil back into the oil pan. It
> feeds the output back into the input side of the pump.
> (Circulates through the pump)
>
> I AGREE I JUST UPLOADED THIS PHOTO OF THE OIL PUMP WITH THE GEARS REMOVED
> AND ANNOTATED WHAT I BELIEVE THE OIL PUMP RELIEF VALVE
> FLOW PATH TO BE.
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58337-oil-pump-relief-flow-path.html
>
> AFTER I ANNOTATED THE PHOTO ABOVE I FOUND THESE TWO PHOTOS THAT BOB DREWES
> POSTED WHICH CLEARLY SHOW THE OIL FLOW PATH WHEN THE
> RELIEF VALVE IS OPEN:
>
> OIL PUMP RELIEF VALVE CLOSED:
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/mechanical/p50100-pv-closed.html
>
> OIL PUMP RELIEF VALVE HALF OPEN:
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/mechanical/p50101-pv-half-open.html
>
> IT DOES NOT DUMP INTO THE OIL PAN IT LOOPS BACK TO THE OIL PUMP INLET.
>
> IN ADDITION HERE'S A LINK TO THE MELLING WEBSITE FOR THE M22FHV PUMP:
>
> TINY URL: http://tinyurl.com/ne6rznz
>
> FULL URL:
>
>
> http://omnitek.co/mellingcatalog/#ag/part/M-22F/from/make%3Doldsmobile%252COldsmobile%26model%3Dtoronado%252CToronado%26year%3D1975%
>
> 252C1975%26engine%3D8cyl%2525207.5%252520455cid%252C8Cyl%2525207.5%252520455Cid/1
>
> THERE ARE THREE VIEWS AND AS YOU CAN SEE THERE ARE ONLY TWO PORTS
>
> 1) THE FLANGE THAT BOLTS TO NUMBER 5 MAIN BEARING CAP
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/texas/p57446-crankshaft.html
>
> 2) THE ROUND PORT THE INLET SCREEN FITS INTO
>
> THERE IS NO PORT FOR THE OIL TO DUMP BACK INTO THE OIL PAN.
>
> The oil pump really does not increase the flow of oil through the cooler /
> filter.
>
> I THINK YOU MEAN THE OIL PUMP REALLY DOES NOT CONTROL THE OIL FLOW THROUGH
> THE COOLER / FILTER.
>
> The actual flow of oil through the system is totally controlled by the
> amount that "Leaks" out the oil passages.
>
> AGREE: MELLING VIDEO (LINK BELOW) DEMONSTRATES WHAT YOU'VE NOTED ABOVE
> CLEARLY:
>
> http://www.mellingengine.com/Tech-Support/Tech-Tip-Videos
>
> SCROLL DOWN TO: Oil Pump Pressure vs. Flow
>
> THE OIL FLOW IS CONTROLLED BY CLEARANCES IN THE ENGINE.
>
> This means that the actual GPM of oil flowing is less than what might be
> expected. (in a fully open ended system) Lower flow rates
> would mean that the pressure drop accross the the filter / cooler may not
> be as high as assumed. The filter / cooler system is also
> using 1/2 inch tubing (significantly larger than the oil passages in the
> engine itself) That would also mean that the pressure drop
> across the filter / cooler would be significantly less. (Exactly the same
> as using large gauge wires in low current electrical
> systems)
>
> AGREE; HOWEVER, FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DETERMINE THE OIL FILTER
> BASE FOR THE TORONADO AND GMC WERE THE SAME. THE TORONADO
> RADIATOR DID NOT HAVE AN OIL COOLER IN IT. THEREFORE ONLY THE OIL FILTER
> CREATED A PRESSURE DROP ACROSS THE BYPASS VALVE IN THE OIL
> FILTER BASE. THE GMC ADDED THE OIL COOLER ADAPTER, 4 1/2 FEET OF LINE TO
> THE OIL COOLER, AN OIL COOLER, 4 1/2 FEET OF LINE BACK TO
> THE OIL COOLING ADAPTER. THE FLOW HAVING TO GO THROUGH THOSE ADDITIONAL
> COMPONENTS WOULD ADD RESISTANCE TO THE FLOW AND CREATE
> ADDITIONAL PRESSURE DROP. THE TESTING I HAVE PROPOSED IS TO DETERMINE IF
> THE 5.3 TO 6.3 SETTING OF THE BYPASS VALVE IS SUFFICIENT TO
> KEEP IT CLOSED DURING NORMAL ENGINE OPERATION.
>
> THE TESTS WILL BE PERFORMED ON A NEWLY REBUILT ENGINE SERVICED WITH
> ROTELLA T 15W-40 OIL, ADDITIONAL ZDDP; AND A WIX 51049 FILTER.
> THE ENGINE WILL BE RUN FOR 20 MINUTES AT 2000 RPM TO BREAK IN THE CAM.
> AFTERWARDS THE OIL WILL BE DRAINED, THE OIL FILTER WILL BE
> REMOVED, CUT OPEN, THE FILTER MEDIA UNFOLDED AND INSPECTED FOR
> CONTAMINATION. A SAMPLE OF THE BREAK IN OIL WILL BE SENT TO
> BLACKSTONE.
>
> THE ENGINE WILL BE REFILLED WITH SHELL ROTELLA T 10W-40, ADDITIONAL ZDDP,
> AND A NEW WIX 51049 OIL FILTER WITH FILTER MAGS ATTACHED
> TO IT. PRESSURE DROP READINGS ACROSS THE OIL FILTER BASE BYPASS VALVE WILL
> BE TAKEN AS WELL AS PRESSURE DROP READINGS FROM THE
> OUTLET OF THE OIL COOLER ADAPTER TO THE OIL COOLER AND BACK TO THE OIL
> COOLER ADAPTER. FLOW READINGS WILL ALSO BE TAKEN.
>
> THESE TESTS WILL DETERMINE IF THE BYPASS VALVE SETTING OF 5.3 TO 6.3 PSI
> IS CORRECT FOR OUR GMC'S OR NOT.
>
> Best Regards
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow [message #281491 is a reply to message #281476] |
Sun, 05 July 2015 09:15 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Oops! Nope, the two gray lumps on the shelf with the oil filter flanges
were an aftermarket cooler adapter and a Cad 500 external oil pump/filter
adapter.
Ken H.
On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 11:25 PM, Ken Henderson
wrote:
> I may have a filter base; I'll check tomorrow.
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 11:21 PM, Robert Mueller
> wrote:
>
>> Ken,
>>
>> I just got an email from Tom advising GOOD news! The oil pump in his 455
>> is a Melling M-22FHV - HIGH VOLUME pump so we'll be testing
>> the worst case scenario.
>>
>>
>> http://omnitek.co/mellingcatalog/#ag/part/M-22FHV/from/make%3Doldsmobile%252COldsmobile%26model%3Dtoronado%252CToronado%26year%3D197
>> 5%252C1975%26engine%3D8cyl%252520455cid%252C8Cyl%252520455Cid/1
>>
>>
>> Does anyone have a spare oil filter base; we need to modify one to be
>> able to change the bypass valve spring setting while the is
>> engine running and I want to install a temperature sensor and fittings we
>> can connect to a PSID gage.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>> The Pedantic Mechanic
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ken Henderson
>>
>> Kerry,
>>
>> I don't thing that flow rate means anything without a corresponding drop
>> across the filter -- which is really the parameter we're interested in.
>> Perhaps the SAE standards Bob mentioned have those specs.?
>>
>> And I'm not sure the HV pump will have a significant effect: The various
>> restrictions in the engine, including the filter and cooler, are probably
>> going to be enough to raise the pressure of either a standard or HV pump
>> to
>> the bypass pressure of the pump's internal "regulator" so that the filter
>> and bypass will see the same pressure with either.
>>
>> That's not to say the HV doesn't have an effect on the circulation of oil
>> and carried contaminants: All the oil that flows through the pump bypass
>> has to come out of the oil pan, so it's already been through the moving
>> parts and passages, regardless of whether it's been through the filter.
>> Continuing that thought, though: If we assume that the OEM and HV pumps
>> have the same regulated pressure, and that either is capable of supplying
>> more than the engine's needs at that pressure, then both of them will be
>> bypassing internally; the HV more than the OEM. Since the bypass dumps
>> right back into the oil pan, that's just churning the pan's contents, not
>> adding to the circulation of oil and abrasives through the moving parts of
>> the engine.
>>
>> I think there's a point in there somewhere! :-)
>>
>> Ken H.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Kerry Pinkerton
>> wrote:
>>
>>> OK, so I found max flow rate for the WIX version of the PF24 and others
>>> and it appears that 9-11 GPM is the magic number. Obviously that would
>> be a
>>> clean filter. As it trapped stuff it would have to flow less. So what
>> is
>>> the volume of our standard oil pump? If it's more than 10 GPM than at
>> 40
>>> PSI it isn't going to take much to open the bypass and, again, the HV
>> pump
>>> with it's 20% more volume will only make that worse.
>>> --
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow [message #281505 is a reply to message #281485] |
Sun, 05 July 2015 13:19 |
Adrien G.
Messages: 474
Registered: May 2008
Location: Burns Flat, OK 73624
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Part of Rob M. quotes
"AGREE; HOWEVER, FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DETERMINE THE OIL FILTER BASE FOR THE TORONADO AND GMC WERE THE SAME. THE TORONADO
RADIATOR DID NOT HAVE AN OIL COOLER IN IT. THEREFORE ONLY THE OIL FILTER CREATED A PRESSURE DROP ACROSS THE BYPASS VALVE IN THE OIL FILTER BASE. THE GMC ADDED THE OIL COOLER ADAPTER, 4 1/2 FEET OF LINE TO THE OIL COOLER, AN OIL COOLER, 4 1/2 FEET OF LINE BACK TO THE OIL COOLING ADAPTER. THE FLOW HAVING TO GO THROUGH THOSE ADDITIONAL COMPONENTS WOULD ADD RESISTANCE TO THE FLOW AND CREATE
ADDITIONAL PRESSURE DROP. THE TESTING I HAVE PROPOSED IS TO DETERMINE IF THE 5.3 TO 6.3 SETTING OF THE BYPASS VALVE IS SUFFICIENT TO
KEEP IT CLOSED DURING NORMAL ENGINE OPERATION."
Rob,
The filter adapter, the oil lines to and from the oil cooler and oil cooler, are all upstream of the oil filter bypass valve. They can have an effect on flow and pressure, but not on the oil filter bypass valve action.
The oil filter bypass valve is located between the filter inlet and outlet (in parallel to the filter element), and the filter element is the only item between that can create the pressure differential to cause the valve to open, irrigardless of what the flow or pressure the incoming oil to the filter is.
As long as the pressures are equal on both sides of the filter oil bypass valve disc, the valve will remain closed (unless there's debris holding it open). As the filter element does its duty of capturing the particles, the pressure differential begins to occur, when it becomes the preset pressure difference the valve opens. Hopefully not before the next oil/filter change.
There may be a correlation between filter element (micron size), oil viscosity, and pressure drop through the oil filter element. 10w oil will flow easier through the filter element then 40w oil. Also using the largest possible oil filter can delay/reduce the pressure difference.
Check the oil passages in the oil filter adapter, when I rebuilt my engine, I cleaned and checked the adapter I noticed that the outlet passage (a drilled hole in 2 directions) was not fully drilled through, flow was very much restricted, and that could have caused the bypass to open or stay open constantly. In my mind I do attribute that to the cause of the PO engine failure (rods and mains).
Just my thoughts, and always interested on others thoughts also.
Adrien & Jenny Genesoto
75 Glenbrook (26-3) Mods LS3.70 FD / Reaction Sys / 80mm Front&Intermidiate / Hydroboost / 16" Tires / Frame Rebuild / Interior Rebuild
Yuba City,Ca. Text 530-nine-3-three-3-nine-nine-6
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| Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow [message #281506 is a reply to message #281505] |
Sun, 05 July 2015 15:28 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Adrien,
Comments below in CAPS for clarity, I'm not shouting.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrien Genesoto
Rob,
The filter adapter, the oil lines to and from the oil cooler and oil cooler, are all upstream of the oil filter bypass valve.
I AGREE
They can have an effect on flow and pressure, but not on the oil filter bypass valve action.
I DISAGREE
The oil filter bypass valve is located between the filter inlet and outlet (in parallel to the filter element),
I DISAGREE; THE BYPASS VALVE IS IN SERIES WITH THE FILTER. OIL FLOWS INTO THE OIL FILTER BASE AND CAN GO TWO DIRECTIONS:
1) FROM THE OIL PUMP INTO THE OIL FILTER BASE - DOWN TO THE OIL COOLER ADAPTER - THROUGH THE LINE TO THE OIL COOLER - THROUGH THE
OIL COOLER - BACK THROUGH THE LINE TO THE OIL COOLER ADAPTER - AROUND THE OD OF THE OIL FILTER - UP THROUGH THE CENTER OF THE OIL
FILTER - INTO THE CENTER PORT OF THE OIL FILTER BASE - INTO THE ENGINE.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58336-oil-filter-base-cooler-adapter-26amp-3b-filter.html
2) FROM THE OIL PUMP INTO THE OIL FILTER BASE - BACK INTO THE ENGINE THROUGH THE BYPASS VALVE
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58294-oil-filter-base.html
and the filter element is the only item between that can create the pressure differential to cause the valve to open, irrigardless
of what the flow or pressure the incoming oil to the filter is.
I DISAGREE; THE OUTLET AREA OF THE OIL COOLER ADAPTER, LINE TO THE OIL COOLER, OIL COOLER, LINE BACK TO THE OIL COOLER ADAPTER, THE
INLET AREA OIL COOLER, AND THE OIL FILTER ALL WILL CONTRIBUTE TO THE PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL ACROSS THE BYPASS VALVE.
As long as the pressures are equal on both sides of the filter oil bypass valve disc, the valve will remain closed (unless there's
debris holding it open). As the filter element does its duty of capturing the particles, the pressure differential begins to occur,
when it becomes the preset pressure difference the valve opens.
I DISAGREE; RESTRICTION IN THE LINES AND CONTAMINATION IN OIL COOLER WILL CAUSE THE PRESSURE DROP ACROSS THE BYPASS TO INCREASE.
Hopefully not before the next oil/filter change.
There may be a correlation between filter element (micron size), oil viscosity, and pressure drop through the oil filter element.
10w oil will flow easier through the filter element then 40w oil. Also using the largest possible oil filter can delay/reduce the
pressure difference.
Check the oil passages in the oil filter adapter, when I rebuilt my engine, I cleaned and checked the adapter I noticed that the
outlet passage (a drilled hole in 2 directions) was not fully drilled through, flow was very much restricted,
I THINK THE PASSAGE YOU MENTION ABOVE IS THE INLET NOT THE OUTLET:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path/p58294-oil-filter-base.html
and that could have caused the bypass to open or stay open constantly. In my mind I do attribute that to the cause of the PO engine
failure (rods and mains).
Just my thoughts, and always interested on others thoughts also.
Adrien
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: How much oil will our filters flow [message #281615 is a reply to message #281433] |
Tue, 07 July 2015 07:00 |
bobby5832708
Messages: 237
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winter Springs FL
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I was on another site this morning and ran across this. They were discussing changing the oil filter every oil change or do it like the manual says and replace the filter every other oil change. I found it interesting that on a Ford forum an example of an Olds 455 came up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let me tll you a story about oil filters, and how long they're really good for...
I've built many engines thru the years, and I'm not afraid of a little experimentation when i think I have a better idea. One time on an Olds 455 I put together, I thought it would be a good idea to modify the oil filter adapter (bolts to the side of the block, oil filter installs onto it - it incorporates the bypass valve) to eliminate the bypass valve altogether and block off the return port so ALL the oil would go thru the filter ALL the time - good in theory, not so functional in the real world!
Turns out that most any filter I used - and I tried a few - would essentially clog to the point of reducing oil pressure within 200-300 miles. It got to the point that as soon as I noticed that gauge not quite topping out the way it should, I'd just fill and install another new filter.
This got old rapidly, and I went back to running a stock filter adapter so the filter would 'last' the entire oil change interval, and chalked it up to a lesson learned.
What it showed me was that regardless of filter used, it is essentially becoming full of the crud it's there to filter out and bypassing and not filtering much of anything after a very brief time in service.
I always changed oil much more frequently after that, since even at a very reasonable time between oil & filter changes, you're pretty much driving around on unfiltered oil the majority of the time.
Granted, some of these parameters may well be different or at least improved today with more modern synthetic oils and filter designs, but I'd need to try that experiment again to prove that to myself.
Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow [message #281628 is a reply to message #281615] |
Tue, 07 July 2015 09:20 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
Would you please provide a link to the website you found this information on?
I do not doubt your veracity I just want to read what else the guy that posted the info below has noted in other email to that
website, assuming of course, he has sent I a number of messages and the one below is not a one off.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Heller
I was on another site this morning and ran across this. They were discussing changing the oil filter every oil change or do it like
the manual says and replace the filter every other oil change. I found it interesting that on a Ford forum an example of an Olds 455
came up.
>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let me tll you a story about oil filters, and how long they're really good for...
I've built many engines thru the years, and I'm not afraid of a little experimentation when i think I have a better idea. One time
on an Olds 455 I put together, I thought it would be a good idea to modify the oil filter adapter (bolts to the side of the block,
oil filter installs onto it - it incorporates the bypass valve) to eliminate the bypass valve altogether and block off the return
port so ALL the oil would go thru the filter ALL the time - good in theory, not so functional in the real world!
Turns out that most any filter I used - and I tried a few - would essentially clog to the point of reducing oil pressure within
200-300 miles. It got to the point that as soon as I noticed that gauge not quite topping out the way it should, I'd just fill and
install another new filter.
This got old rapidly, and I went back to running a stock filter adapter so the filter would 'last' the entire oil change interval,
and chalked it up to a lesson learned.
What it showed me was that regardless of filter used, it is essentially becoming full of the crud it's there to filter out and
bypassing and not filtering much of anything after a very brief time in service.
I always changed oil much more frequently after that, since even at a very reasonable time between oil & filter changes, you're
pretty much driving around on unfiltered oil the majority of the time.
Granted, some of these parameters may well be different or at least improved today with more modern synthetic oils and filter
designs, but I'd need to try that experiment again to prove that to myself.
Bob
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: How much oil will our filters flow [message #281631 is a reply to message #281433] |
Tue, 07 July 2015 09:31 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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If that turns out to be correct it is pretty telling about the condition of our (or at least his) oil and the amount of 'stuff' that is in them. If the filter starts to restrict after a few hundred miles as opposed to running 5-6K that would say volumes about how often our oil actually gets filtered.
Generally speaking I'm of the opinion that oil cannot be too clean.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow [message #281684 is a reply to message #281672] |
Tue, 07 July 2015 19:00 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
Thanks!
I clicked on the long link below and read the entire thread, I wanted to read more of the writers posts to determine his credibility
but unfortunately you have to be registered and logged in to do that and I didn't want to bother.
Email on Ford forum pasted below with COMMENTS IN CAPS.
I've built many engines thru the years, and I'm not afraid of a little experimentation when i think I have a better idea. One time
on an Olds 455 I put together, I thought it would be a good idea to modify the oil filter adapter (bolts to the side of the block,
oil filter installs onto it - it incorporates the bypass valve) to eliminate the bypass valve altogether and block off the return
port so ALL the oil would go thru the filter ALL the time - good in theory, not so functional in the real world!
Turns out that most any filter I used - and I tried a few - would essentially clog to the point of reducing oil pressure within
200-300 miles.
I BELIEVE THAT THE FIRST FILTER AFTER REBUILD COULD GET CONTAMINATED QUICKLY; HOWEVER, AFTER THAT AN OIL FILTER THAT "NEEDS TO BE
CHANGED" EVERY 200-300 MILES DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME. EITHER THE ENGINE IS GENERATING LOTS OF CONTAMINATION OR THE FILTER MEDIA
AREA IS TOO SMALL OR TOO FINE.
It got to the point that as soon as I noticed that gauge not quite topping out the way it should, I'd just fill and install another
new filter.
IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO KNOW HOW MUCH THE OIL PRESSURE DROPPED BEFORE HE CHANGED THE FILTER.
This got old rapidly, and I went back to running a stock filter adapter so the filter would 'last' the entire oil change interval,
and chalked it up to a lesson learned.
HE COULD HAVE JUST USED AN OIL FILTER WITH A BYPASS IN IT.
What it showed me was that regardless of filter used, it is essentially becoming full of the crud it's there to filter out and
bypassing and not filtering much of anything after a very brief time in service.
IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE TO SEE SOME PHOTOS OF THE MEDIA OF THE OIL FILTERS REMOVED TO SEE WHAT THE CRUD LOOKED LIKE AND HOW MUCH
THERE WAS.
I always changed oil much more frequently after that, since even at a very reasonable time between oil & filter changes, you're
pretty much driving around on unfiltered oil the majority of the time.
THIS IS POSSIBLE AND WHY I'VE PROPOSED TESTING WITH TOM PRYOR.
Granted, some of these parameters may well be different or at least improved today with more modern synthetic oils and filter
designs, but I'd need to try that experiment again to prove that to myself.
ANYBODY WANT TO REMOVE THEIR OIL FILTER BASE AND PLUG THE BYPASS VALVE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS?
ONCE AGAIN DOES ANYONE HAVE AN OIL FILTER BASE THAT THEY WOULD BE WILLING TO PART WITH SO IT CAN BE MODIFIED TO INCLUDE PORTS TO
CHECK THE PRESSURE ACROSS IT AND A WAY TO FORCE THE BYPASS VALVE CLOSED?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Heller
Rob,
http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2905728&gonew=1#UNREAD
should get you there.
Or go to www.crownvic.net and look for the topic 'Best oil filter' topic under the '4.6L Based Powertrains'. Even the Crown Vic
guys talk about oil, oil coolers, and oil filters just like us GMCers.
--
Bob
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: How much oil will our filters flow [message #281688 is a reply to message #281433] |
Tue, 07 July 2015 20:19 |
bobby5832708
Messages: 237
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winter Springs FL
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
In my garage I've got a rebuilt 455 on a stand with about 3 hours runtime on it. It's ready for it's second oil change (third filling of oil) and should hopefully be done shedding break-in particles. I will know for sure when I open up the oil filter and take a look. The engine has a new Melling high volume pump and a mechanical pressure gauge. I've got a few 51049 Wix filters too.
I'm not willing to modify the FWD oil filter adapter as they're pretty scarce but if I (or someone else) could find a RWD adapter to modify I would be willing to put it on my engine and do whatever testing you want. In the garage I've also got the oil cooler adapter, a set of Slaten cooler hoses, and the original radiator recored by Bounds 8 years ago. If you want numbers with and without a cooler I could do that too.
Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow [message #281802 is a reply to message #281688] |
Fri, 10 July 2015 07:50 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
Thank you for the offer to run the test that is most kind. As Tom Pryor has already volunteered to run them on an engine he has I'd
like to let him do that. What we could do (if it makes sense) is do two sets of tests one on Tom's engine and one on your engine.
I was not aware that there is a difference between the FWD oil filter base and the RWD oil filter base! Do you happen to have any
part numbers for the RWD unit?
Parts Book 78Z is a bit confusing as there is no line drawing and no Key numbers.
Section 8 - Engine / Page 8-11 / Figure 8.009 - Filter - Oil
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bob Heller
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 11:19 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] How much oil will our filters flow
Rob,
In my garage I've got a rebuilt 455 on a stand with about 3 hours runtime on it. It's ready for it's second oil change (third
filling of oil) and should hopefully be done shedding break-in particles. I will know for sure when I open up the oil filter and
take a look. The engine has a new Melling high volume pump and a mechanical pressure gauge. I've got a few 51049 Wix filters too.
I'm not willing to modify the FWD oil filter adapter as they're pretty scarce but if I (or someone else) could find a RWD adapter to
modify I would be willing to put it on my engine and do whatever testing you want. In the garage I've also got the oil cooler
adapter, a set of Slaten cooler hoses, and the original radiator recored by Bounds 8 years ago. If you want numbers with and without
a cooler I could do that too.
--
Bob Heller
1974 X-Canyonlands 26ft
Original 455 exc for timing chain,
Rockwell intake, valve covers. 136k miles.
Winter Springs FL
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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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