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Finding those timing marks [message #281097]

Tue, 30 June 2015 15:57

thainglo

Messages: 132
Registered: March 2015
Location: Iowa

Karma: 2

Senior Member

I'm going my new coach piece by piece, just wrapping up rear brake rebuild and planning to do a thorough tune up back to spec. In preparation, I marked the slit in the balancer since it was accessible and started the hunt for the timing marks. found Gene's photo of what it should look like:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p30454-timing455.html

Hard to get a frame of reference from this shot, I'm guessing it is from looking down on the engine from the driver side of the hatch? Sure not a lot of space to get a good look at the balancer!

I've felt all the way around the balancer from below and couldn't feel anything that I could discern as the pointer. Am I missing something?

If it is gone, any idea why it might have been removed? Water pump replacement maybe?

Lastly, assuming it is gone, does anyone have an extra I could purchase?

Thanks for any help!
Matt

Matt Sladek 1976 Eleganza II Coralville, IA

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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281101 is a reply to message #281097]

Tue, 30 June 2015 16:21

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Matt (nice name),

On my 455, the timing marks are best viewed from the top. (Cut a belly board before you even start.)
I have to wedge the timing light between radiator hoses and stuff to see it. It can be a bear.

GM used the same "timing saw" on lots of engines over lots of years. Some are plastic and so are easily broken and lost.

Matt

thainglo wrote on Tue, 30 June 2015 16:57

I'm going my new coach piece by piece, just wrapping up rear brake rebuild and planning to do a thorough tune up back to spec. In preparation, I marked the slit in the balancer since it was accessible and started the hunt for the timing marks. found Gene's photo of what it should look like:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p30454-timing455.html

Hard to get a frame of reference from this shot, I'm guessing it is from looking down on the engine from the driver side of the hatch? Sure not a lot of space to get a good look at the balancer!

I've felt all the way around the balancer from below and couldn't feel anything that I could discern as the pointer. Am I missing something?

If it is gone, any idea why it might have been removed? Water pump replacement maybe?

Lastly, assuming it is gone, does anyone have an extra I could purchase?

Thanks for any help!
Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: [GMCnet] Finding those timing marks [message #281103 is a reply to message #281097]

Tue, 30 June 2015 16:21

w schurman

Messages: 49
Registered: June 2015

Karma: 1

Member

An extra coach ??

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Matt Sladek wrote:

> I'm going my new coach piece by piece, just wrapping up rear brake rebuild
> and planning to do a thorough tune up back to spec. In preparation, I
> marked the slit in the balancer since it was accessible and started the
> hunt for the timing marks. found Gene's photo of what it should look like:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p30454-timing455.html
>
> Hard to get a frame of reference from this shot, I'm guessing it is from
> looking down on the engine from the driver side of the hatch? Sure not a
> lot
> of space to get a good look at the balancer!
>
> I've felt all the way around the balancer from below and couldn't feel
> anything that I could discern as the pointer. Am I missing something?
>
> If it is gone, any idea why it might have been removed? Water pump
> replacement maybe?
>
> Lastly, assuming it is gone, does anyone have an extra I could purchase?
>
> Thanks for any help!
> Matt
> --
> Matt Sladek
> 1976 Eleganza II
> Coralville, IA
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

--
William S. Schurman
box 772806
Steamboat Springs, CO
80477
1978 Palm Beach
TZE168V100258
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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281114 is a reply to message #281097]

Tue, 30 June 2015 18:24

George Beckman

Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA

Karma: 11

Senior Member

thainglo wrote on Tue, 30 June 2015 13:57

I'm going my new coach piece by piece, just wrapping up rear brake rebuild and planning to do a thorough tune up back to spec. In preparation, I marked the slit in the balancer since it was accessible and started the hunt for the timing marks. found Gene's photo of what it should look like:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p30454-timing455.html

Hard to get a frame of reference from this shot, I'm guessing it is from looking down on the engine from the driver side of the hatch? Sure not a lot of space to get a good look at the balancer!

I've felt all the way around the balancer from below and couldn't feel anything that I could discern as the pointer. Am I missing something?

If it is gone, any idea why it might have been removed? Water pump replacement maybe?

Lastly, assuming it is gone, does anyone have an extra I could purchase?

Thanks for any help!
Matt

Belly board suggestion really helps. I also rewired my timing light so it can plug into a cigar lighter. Saves looking for 12V. Also, take time to put a white stripe of paint on the timing notch on the balancer.

As far as seeing the little notched guy, it is really hard to see. I doubt it is gone. It might be covered with grease. It is closer to the top than I thought and after standing on my head I finally saw it. No way to read what it says. I have to count notches to set timing. Even then, with hoses and stuff it is difficult to see the notch you need to see. Always seems to be "just around the corner" from where I can see and get the light to shine. Be careful not to get the light or wires in any moving parts... there are lots of them around there.

If it is really gone, I believe JimK has a nylon replacement.

'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George

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Re: [GMCnet] Finding those timing marks [message #281121 is a reply to message #281097]

Tue, 30 June 2015 18:58

Len Novak

Messages: 676
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Karma: -3

Senior Member

The number on the box in front of me says

00419048

http://www.tonkinonlineparts.com/p/Pontiac__Grand-Prix/INDICATOR-Engine-Fron
t-Cover-Engine-Front-Cover-Timing-POINTER-Timing/5841292/00419048.html

http://www.kakapart.com/parts/gm-00419048.html

Len and Pat Novak
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Fallbrook, CA new email: B52Rule@Roadrunner.Com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375

www.bdub.net/novak/

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Matt
Sladek
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 1:58 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Finding those timing marks

I'm going my new coach piece by piece, just wrapping up rear brake rebuild
and planning to do a thorough tune up back to spec. In preparation, I marked
the slit in the balancer since it was accessible and started the hunt for
the timing marks. found Gene's photo of what it should look like:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p30454-timing455.html

Hard to get a frame of reference from this shot, I'm guessing it is from
looking down on the engine from the driver side of the hatch? Sure not a
lot of space to get a good look at the balancer!

I've felt all the way around the balancer from below and couldn't feel
anything that I could discern as the pointer. Am I missing something?

If it is gone, any idea why it might have been removed? Water pump
replacement maybe?

Lastly, assuming it is gone, does anyone have an extra I could purchase?

Thanks for any help!
Matt
--
Matt Sladek
1976 Eleganza II
Coralville, IA
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Version: 2015.0.6037 / Virus Database: 4365/10131 - Release Date: 06/30/15

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Len and Pat Novak 1978 GMC Kingsley The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see! Las Vegas, NV new email: B52sRule@Gmail.com http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375 www.bdub.net/novak/

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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281125 is a reply to message #281097]

Tue, 30 June 2015 19:32

kerry pinkerton

Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al

Karma: 15

Senior Member

Matt, I made a belly board with about a 6" square on the left front. This covers the alternator and the spinning belt that is RIGHT FIGGING THERE when you're working on the timing. This lets me get much closer to where I need to be without worrying about getting the timing light wires or my arm caught in something. If you can ever find the right saw tooth, you can mark it with some yellow or other bright color fingernail polish.

Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L

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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281146 is a reply to message #281097]

Tue, 30 June 2015 22:32

wally

Messages: 643
Registered: August 2004
Location: Omaha Nebraska

Karma: 5

Senior Member

thainglo wrote on Tue, 30 June 2015 15:57

I'm going my new coach piece by piece, just wrapping up rear brake rebuild and planning to do a thorough tune up back to spec. In preparation, I marked the slit in the balancer since it was accessible and started the hunt for the timing marks. found Gene's photo of what it should look like:

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/misc/p30454-timing455.html

Hard to get a frame of reference from this shot, I'm guessing it is from looking down on the engine from the driver side of the hatch? Sure not a lot of space to get a good look at the balancer!

I've felt all the way around the balancer from below and couldn't feel anything that I could discern as the pointer. Am I missing something?

If it is gone, any idea why it might have been removed? Water pump replacement maybe?

Lastly, assuming it is gone, does anyone have an extra I could purchase?

Thanks for any help!
Matt

Here is a pic of the metal version of the timing tab. This view is from the front of a 455 with the water pump and pulley not present.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/power-level-valve-fitting/p58275-timing-tab.html
To see the tab you look down from the hatch on the drivers side of the water pump, the darn thing is hard to see being almost under the water pump. Looks like this with the belts off. I've dinged a timing light on moving stuff so be careful.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/power-level-valve-fitting/p58276-timing-tab.html
Plastic tab up close with numbers
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/power-level-valve-fitting/p58277-timing-tab.html
HTH

Wally Anderson
Omaha NE
75 Glenbrook

[Updated on: Tue, 30 June 2015 22:36]

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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281153 is a reply to message #281101]

Wed, 01 July 2015 00:47

Ken Burton

Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana

Karma: 10

Senior Member

If you still need one and Jim K. does nto have them, Dickpaterson had some on his table at the last rally he attended. Give him a call.

If you do have one installed the left hand most point looking down from the top is 0 degrees. Every point after that is 4 degrees BTDC. 0-4-8-12-16-20 and 24 (I believe)

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281180 is a reply to message #281097]

Wed, 01 July 2015 10:38

thainglo

Messages: 132
Registered: March 2015
Location: Iowa

Karma: 2

Senior Member

Thanks for the great tips guys on the belly board, and special thanks to Wally for the photos he posted. They were a HUGE help to confirm that my timing marks are utterly, and completely, missing in action. Will give Dick or Jim a call on getting a replacement. Rob Burkitt pointed me to a Mondello part as well, in case I need that as an option.

At least it looks like the pointer can be installed without removing the balancer. Thank goodness for that!

Matt

Matt Sladek 1976 Eleganza II Coralville, IA

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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281181 is a reply to message #281180]

Wed, 01 July 2015 11:01

larry.whisler

Messages: 356
Registered: August 2005

Karma: 8

Senior Member

white out correction fluid from your office supplies works great
for marking both the pulley and the timing mark.

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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281182 is a reply to message #281181]

Wed, 01 July 2015 11:07

Ken Burton

Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana

Karma: 10

Senior Member

I have bottles of white out in most of my tool boxes. It works great for marking most things. It is available at Walamrt for around $.99 .

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281186 is a reply to message #281180]

Wed, 01 July 2015 11:11

C Boyd

Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006

Karma: 18

Senior Member

Yes it can be installed with balancer on, but it is held on with the stud that mounts the power steering pump. So you have to remove the 3 bolts that mount the pump so you can pull it forward enough to get the stud out. The
Olds timing Mark is specific and is nylon with a pressed in steel spacer.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/dean-26amp-3b-cheri/p50419-ready-to-install.html
You can see it better in the enlarged photo.

thainglo wrote on Wed, 01 July 2015 11:38

Thanks for the great tips guys on the belly board, and special thanks to Wally for the photos he posted. They were a HUGE help to confirm that my timing marks are utterly, and completely, missing in action. Will give Dick or Jim a call on getting a replacement. Rob Burkitt pointed me to a Mondello part as well, in case I need that as an option.

At least it looks like the pointer can be installed without removing the balancer. Thank goodness for that!

Matt

C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee

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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281202 is a reply to message #281097]

Wed, 01 July 2015 14:56

bwevers

Messages: 597
Registered: October 2010
Location: San Jose

Karma: 5

Senior Member

My waterpump blocks the view of timing marks beyond 8º.
So I marked the pulley 10º ATDC from the slit. Now
when my mark is at TDC I have 10º of advance.

Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States 1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon 455 F Block, G heads San Jose

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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281205 is a reply to message #281101]

Wed, 01 July 2015 15:18

A Hamilto

Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011

Karma: 39

Senior Member

Matt Colie wrote on Tue, 30 June 2015 16:21

...I have to wedge the timing light between radiator hoses and stuff to see it. It can be a bear. ...

Would a borescope camera make this job easier?

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Re: [GMCnet] Finding those timing marks [message #281220 is a reply to message #281205]

Wed, 01 July 2015 17:56

James Hupy

Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010

Karma: -62

Senior Member

I have a borescope that will fit in a hole smaller than 3/8". I agree that
a timing light is a pita to use on a gmc. Dangerous also. I thought about
making a sheath for the scope that you could snake down near the pointer
for viewing and just point the timing light so it illuminates the marks. I
can lay the display near the distributor for adjustments and not put my
head near those moving parts up front. EZ PZ. Next time I time something,
I'm gonna try it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Jul 1, 2015 1:19 PM, "A." wrote:

> Matt Colie wrote on Tue, 30 June 2015 16:21
>> ...I have to wedge the timing light between radiator hoses and stuff to
> see it. It can be a bear. ...
> Would a borescope camera make this job easier?
> --
> '73 23' Sequoia For Sale
> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
> Upper Alabama
> After all is said and done, a helluva lot more is said than done.
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Re: Finding those timing marks [message #281232 is a reply to message #281097]

Wed, 01 July 2015 20:57

Chris Tyler

Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL

Karma: 7

Senior Member

It is possible to create your own timing mark and pointer in another more accessible location once you verify TDC with a piston stop [which is always a good idea in any case.]
You can use a timing tape from any engine with hte same diameter balancer. They don't last but you can make your hash marks with it as a reference

76 Glenbrook

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Re: [GMCnet] Finding those timing marks [message #281236 is a reply to message #281182]

Wed, 01 July 2015 21:35

k2gkk

Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009

Karma: -8

Senior Member

Clean the wheel/pully with the timing marks of all grease and oil really well and put the stripe of white out at the number of degrees from TDC that you desire. That Whyte-Out mark will probably outlast the engine! Paint the "pointer" in the same way and timing the engine will be child's play.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ Since 30 November '53 ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ Member GMCMI and Classics ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
|[ ]~~~[][ ][]\
"--OO--[]---O-"

> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 10:07:16 -0600
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: n9cv@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Finding those timing marks
>
> I have bottles of white out in most of my tool boxes. It works great for marking most things. It is available at Walamrt for around $.99 .
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

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Re: [GMCnet] Finding those timing marks [message #281242 is a reply to message #281220]

Thu, 02 July 2015 06:25

thainglo

Messages: 132
Registered: March 2015
Location: Iowa

Karma: 2

Senior Member

James Hupy wrote on Wed, 01 July 2015 17:56

I have a borescope that will fit in a hole smaller than 3/8". I agree that
a timing light is a pita to use on a gmc. Dangerous also. I thought about
making a sheath for the scope that you could snake down near the pointer
for viewing and just point the timing light so it illuminates the marks. I
can lay the display near the distributor for adjustments and not put myl
head near those moving parts up front. EZ PZ. Next time I time something,
I'm gonna try it.

I've got one of those little guys in the shop as well. Great idea, will give that a try and report back.

Matt Sladek 1976 Eleganza II Coralville, IA

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Re: [GMCnet] Finding those timing marks [message #281255 is a reply to message #281242]

Thu, 02 July 2015 08:13

USAussie

Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Karma: 6

Senior Member

Guys,

This sounds like a "fiber optic' timing light?

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Sladek

James Hupy wrote on Wed, 01 July 2015 17:56
> I have a borescope that will fit in a hole smaller than 3/8". I agree that
> a timing light is a pita to use on a gmc. Dangerous also. I thought about
> making a sheath for the scope that you could snake down near the pointer
> for viewing and just point the timing light so it illuminates the marks. I
> can lay the display near the distributor for adjustments and not put myl
> head near those moving parts up front. EZ PZ. Next time I time something,
> I'm gonna try it.

I've got one of those little guys in the shop as well. Great idea, will give that a try and report back.
--
Matt list

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

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Re: [GMCnet] Finding those timing marks [message #281274 is a reply to message #281255]

Thu, 02 July 2015 10:38

hal kading

Messages: 642
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Cruces NM

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Matt,

Be aware that the balancer is known to slip on these old engines. If things don't seem right check to be sure that TDC mark is correct.

Hal Kading 78 Buskirk Las Cruces NM

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