Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system
| [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #278948] |
Tue, 02 June 2015 16:55  |
Botts Chuck
Messages: 43
Registered: May 2015
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When gas is $3.47/gallon, I have saved $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system that has a patented PWM digital controller by adicorp.net . The systems ROI is less than 1400 miles. Everything is available over the net.
The system can be viewed on gmcws.org/blog/?p=3340 . Test results included. Anyone can download it for free.
My full development story is in my book starting on on page 144. Book and e-book is available on my web page smallrvtouring.com .
It is the new digital technology by adicorp that enables this MileageShop HHO hybrid system to work on a four barreled carburetored GMC modified and Dyno tested by DynaShop.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #278959 is a reply to message #278948] |
Tue, 02 June 2015 20:23  |
rickmike
Messages: 252
Registered: September 2011
Location: United States
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My 26' coach carrying 3 adults with all our junk got 9.7 mpg over a 7000 mile trip including grinding up the the Rockies and the high desert, etc from TN to OH to WA and back.
Go get a tuneup to where you get normal mpg for a GMC and then do your test over and you may have something to convince others.
Lean out your mixture and add water injection to reduce combustion temp and preignition and drive gently as described in write up and you will get same improvement. No discernible magic here.
No argument here, just a dose of real Engineering Analysis.
If you are Happy, go for it and enjoy.
I truly hope you are enjoying improved mpg by whatever means possible.
RickMike
1974 26' Canyonlands
aka "The General"
Clinton, TN
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #278961 is a reply to message #278948] |
Tue, 02 June 2015 20:34 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Let's restate that. Mine doesn't cost $1 per mile in fuel. Waaaaay closer to 40 cents/mile. Which doesn't mean I ain't interested in a peer reviewed study of new technology, particularly when it seems superficially to violate some of the basic laws, shows a substantial benefit.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #278991 is a reply to message #278948] |
Wed, 03 June 2015 09:23 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
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I'll tell you how I get that in my '76 23'. Run it on no alcohol gas, always run it on cruise control on the freeway, run it at 60 indicated, which is ~~62 according to the GPS, with proper tyre pressure as indicated by the glove box sticker, without any brakes dragging. Closes in on 10, just below or just above. With toad, ten percent increase in consumption.According to the tach, this comes out to about 2300 rpm +-, which keeps the converter above stall speed.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #278993 is a reply to message #278948] |
Wed, 03 June 2015 09:45 |
jknezek
Messages: 1057
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 5
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I don't see how you can save $1/mile with gas at $3.47. At 7 mpg, you are only spending $.50 per mile in gas. So are you making gas as you go down the road? If you go from 7 mpg to 10mpg, you go from $.50 to $.347, so it would save you $.153 per mile. On a $1400 investment, if you could get this 43% increase in gas mileage, it would take 9150 miles to break even. Now that's a pretty reasonable break even time, but you are talking about a 43% increase in gas mileage.
There is simply no way you are saving $1/mile, and that is absolutely no comment on the efficacy of the system but simply that a GMC doesn't spend a $1/mile going down the road at $3.47 per gallon of gas unless you are getting 3.5 miles to the gallon or less.
Thanks,
Jeremy Knezek
1976 Glenbrook
Birmingham, AL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #278997 is a reply to message #278948] |
Wed, 03 June 2015 10:25 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Jeremy, that was my point as well. I tend to be skeptical of those who claim they've come up with a major engineering triumph if they can't handle simple math. I'm not gonna hold my breath hoping this is any kind of gas mileage solution...
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #278998 is a reply to message #278993] |
Wed, 03 June 2015 10:24 |
Botts Chuck
Messages: 43
Registered: May 2015
Karma: -9
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Math is on screen 36 of PP of system.
Chuck Botts
> On Jun 3, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Jeremy wrote:
>
> I don't see how you can save $1/mile with gas at $3.47. At 7 mpg, you are only spending $.50 per mile in gas. So are you making gas as you go down the
> road? If you go from 7 mpg to 10mpg, you go from $.50 to $.347, so it would save you $.153 per mile. On a $1400 investment, if you could get this 43%
> increase in gas mileage, it would take 9150 miles to break even. Now that's a pretty reasonable break even time, but you are talking about a 43%
> increase in gas mileage.
>
> There is simply no way you are saving $1/mile, and that is absolutely no comment on the efficacy of the system but simply that a GMC doesn't spend a
> $1/mile going down the road at $3.47 per gallon of gas unless you are getting 3.5 miles to the gallon or less.
> --
> Thanks,
> Jeremy Knezek
> 1976 Glenbrook
> Birmingham, AL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #278999 is a reply to message #278997] |
Wed, 03 June 2015 10:31 |
jknezek
Messages: 1057
Registered: December 2007
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habbyguy wrote on Wed, 03 June 2015 11:25Jeremy, that was my point as well. I tend to be skeptical of those who claim they've come up with a major engineering triumph if they can't handle simple math. I'm not gonna hold my breath hoping this is any kind of gas mileage solution...
Yeah. I saw your post. I just wondered what the payback was if it worked at some reasonable level. I'm not sure a 40%+ increase in gas mileage qualified as reasonable, but if the payback is almost 10K miles at that massive increase it becomes really problematic if it is less. All that really matters, however, is that he is happy with the system.
Thanks,
Jeremy Knezek
1976 Glenbrook
Birmingham, AL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #279007 is a reply to message #278998] |
Wed, 03 June 2015 11:32 |
jknezek
Messages: 1057
Registered: December 2007
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Botts Chuck wrote on Wed, 03 June 2015 11:24Math is on screen 36 of PP of system.
Chuck Botts
I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm saying this to be accurate. Your math? It's bad. It's not that I think you are being malicious about it, but it isn't helping your sales pitch. Let's go through how it should be done.
If your mileage increased 3.47 mpg, which I'm not going to dispute, then you still didn't save $1/mile. Here's how you should have done your math. Your original mileage stated was 8mpg. See slide 31. At 8mpg and a cost of $3.20 per gallon (slide 36), it cost you 40 cents to go 1 mile, $3.20/8=$.40. That is indisputable based on your own numbers.
Now, you improved your mileage to 11.5 mpg max. Again, page 31. So now the math goes like this: $3.2/11.5 = $.278. So you are now able to spend .278 dollars per mile as opposed to .40. That's a huge improvement, but it's only $.122 per mile. That is how your math has to work. It does show that you saved over 30%, which is your point.
You then proceeded to misplace the decimal using some bad math. Basically over the 11.5 miles you can now travel on $3.20 worth of gas, you have gone $1.40 worth of gas farther than you were going when you got only 8 miles to the gallon. But that isn't happening per mile, it's happening over the entire use of $3.20 at either mpg. Further, simple common sense tells you that your math is wrong. You have a 30% improvement. 30% of $3.20 is $.96, or almost a dollar. But again, this didn't happen in 1 mile, it happened over the entire mileage traveled on $3.20.
So, your payback in miles is $1309 (page 35) / $.122 per mile, or approximately 10,729.5 miles. Provided that you always see your max improvement.
You should really update your presentation to the correct numbers and re-upload. Lots of people believe HHO is snakeoil. Having horribly flawed math and drastically inflated claims in your presentation only adds to that perception.
Thanks,
Jeremy Knezek
1976 Glenbrook
Birmingham, AL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #279012 is a reply to message #279007] |
Wed, 03 June 2015 13:38 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Karma: 3
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And the measurement techniques would not hold up to scientific scrutiny.
I feel badly for anyone falling for a con like this - but I guess you have to spend your money on something...
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
On 2015-06-03, at 9:32 AM, Jeremy wrote:
> I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm saying this to be accurate. Your math? It's bad. It's not that I think you are being malicious about it, but it
> isn't helping your sales pitch. Let's go through how it should be done.
>
> If your mileage increased 3.47 mpg, which I'm not going to dispute, then you still didn't save $1/mile. Here's how you should have done your math.
> Your original mileage stated was 8mpg. See slide 31. At 8mpg and a cost of $3.20 per gallon (slide 36), it cost you 40 cents to go 1 mile,
> $3.20/8=$.40. That is indisputable based on your own numbers.
>
> Now, you improved your mileage to 11.5 mpg max. Again, page 31. So now the math goes like this: $3.2/11.5 = $.278. So you are now able to spend .278
> dollars per mile as opposed to .40. That's a huge improvement, but it's only $.122 per mile. That is how your math has to work. It does show that you
> saved over 30%, which is your point.
>
> You then proceeded to misplace the decimal using some bad math. Basically over the 11.5 miles you can now travel on $3.20 worth of gas, you have gone
> $1.40 worth of gas farther than you were going when you got only 8 miles to the gallon. But that isn't happening per mile, it's happening over the
> entire use of $3.20 at either mpg. Further, simple common sense tells you that your math is wrong. You have a 30% improvement. 30% of $3.20 is $.96,
> or almost a dollar. But again, this didn't happen in 1 mile, it happened over the entire mileage traveled on $3.20.
>
> So, your payback in miles is $1309 (page 35) / $.122 per mile, or approximately 10,729.5 miles. Provided that you always see your max improvement.
>
> You should really update your presentation to the correct numbers and re-upload. Lots of people believe HHO is snakeoil. Having horribly flawed math
> and drastically inflated claims in your presentation only adds to that perception.
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Jeremy Knezek
> 1976 Glenbrook
> Birmingham, AL
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Rob -
Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #279028 is a reply to message #278973] |
Wed, 03 June 2015 19:30 |
rickmike
Messages: 252
Registered: September 2011
Location: United States
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djeffers wrote on Wed, 03 June 2015 03:32rickmike wrote on Tue, 02 June 2015 21:23My 26' coach carrying 3 adults with all our junk got 9.7 mpg over a 7000 mile trip including grinding up the the Rockies and the high desert, etc from TN to OH to WA and back.
RickMike
Hello RickMike,
Please tell us about how you got 9.7 mpg over a 7000 mile trip?
Engine? Carb? Injection? Fuel used?
Weight of coach (heavily loaded, lightly loaded, etc)?
Usual speed you drive?
And anything else you did to get that overall mileage.
Thanks,
Don and Susan Jeffers
78 Eleganza II
85k miles on coach
455 with Rockwell Aluminum manifold
3" exhaust
Stock Carb
upgraded to HEI ignition- timed by ear.
Mobil 1 10W-30 oil
stock cruise control
Otherwise bone stock drive train.
Just weighed the coach at 11,400 lbs.
Buy cheapest gas around
Drive 60-65
Downshift to 2nd grinding up the Rockies.
Don't floor it to accelerate, it ain't going to help...
Didn't tow anything.
No vapor lock problems (knock on wood!)
No magic, this is what GMC made it to do.
RickMike
1974 26' Canyonlands
aka "The General"
Clinton, TN
[Updated on: Wed, 03 June 2015 19:42] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #279065 is a reply to message #278998] |
Thu, 04 June 2015 16:28 |
Botts Chuck
Messages: 43
Registered: May 2015
Karma: -9
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You are right and I was wrong.
I’ll review the system dollars and show my corrections at the end. I’ll summarize my HHO system here.
The good. The HHO system is very simple chemistry. Adding the correct amount of HHO gases to the fuel vapors speeds up the flame front and burns the fuel more completely during the power stroke. This produces more power from the same amount of fuel, while reducing the amount of unburned fuel during the exhaust portion of the cycle. Thus you have the same power and speed with less fuel, equaling improved mpg.
MileageShop literature claims that for their HHO system, “By injecting a small amount of Hydrogen gas into your vehicle’s engine mixed with your normal fuel will greatly improve the Octane rating to about 140 Octane, much better than the 91 Octane the you get at gas stations."
That is why people, or companies, who drive long distances with the same load at the same speed install a HHO system and tune it match their needs. Some Mileage Shop customers claim up to 45% mpg improvement. Since I already had toured over 240,000 miles, a 45% improvement in gas mileage would be significant reduction in my gas cost. I normally got between 8 mpg in hill country and 9 mpg in flatland country traveling at 65 to 75 mph in our 23’ 1977 GMC with a Coop 455 and 3.42 differential. I only went to second gear above 8,000 feet. smallrvtouring.com
The bad. Here in southern CA, my emission test requirements for my 77 GMC dictate that I must have the same system that was stock when it was initially tested and sold, i.e., no Fuel injection system allowed and it must pass the emission test every two years. We decided to stay in our home in CA with our remodeled GMC.
The amount of HHO gases act like at catalyst, so the amount produced is extremely sensitive to amount of current used for electrolysis that produces those HHO gasses. Too much HHO gasses and the fuel is diluted, but with too little, you have not reached the best mpg.The current variations around the best mpg turned out to be extremely narrow. The conductivity in the fuel cell increases with increasing temperatures. In southern CA at 60-70 degree daytime winter temperatures, my system created 20% more HHO gases with the 20% increased current after the cell was warmed. It took me half an hour to warm my cell before starting the test to get consistent results. I suspect that daytime temperature variations would only amplify the variations.
I found a solution to the variability of current due to temperature variations in newly patented KZX1250 Pulsed Width Modulated Digital Controller. It's designed for 12V DC HHO applications. I can preset the current level and the controller will maintain that level at 13.9 within 0.1 amp. PWM is a technique for getting analog results with digital means. Digital control is used to create a square wave, with the cell ground being switched between off and on at high frequency and durations.
To make the system work for me, the Dyno shop owner suggested they lean my 2 cruise barrels and change my driving habits to limit opening the power barrels by keeping my vacuum above 6”. I had changed the spring that starts to open my power barrels at 6 inches with the Coop motor tuning. When I ran my testing I finally achieved a 3.47 mpg improvement (43%) on a run, which included two 6% grades within 20 miles of testing. this test route needed to have the power barrels opened to maintain a 65 mph speed. I had to reduce my speed to 58 mph going up those steep grades to stay in my cruise barrels maintaining my 43% mpg improvement. Higher altitudes will decrease my speed more on the steep freeway hills.
When gas cost is $3.47 a gallon and my 8 mpg over the test route, I used 12.5 gallons at a cost $43.38/ 100 miles. But at 11.5 mpg , i will reduce my gas to 8.70 gallons at a cost $30.19/100 miles. A savings of $13.19/100 miles. For my 10,000 miles per year average, that works out to $1,319 reduction in my gas cost/year.
My ROI on a system that cost $1,309/$.1319/ mile is 9,924 miles. Since we average about 10,000 miles per year of touring, that means that the system will pay for itself in gas savings within the first year. When gas prices go over $3.47’gallon, the ROI mileage will shorten, which it has done recently. For me, it’s worth the change after the first year.
So now I can choose between speed versus mpg improvement as I drive
I'll send a correction to the page 36 of my technical article to GMCWS.
Thank you for pointing out my error.
Chuck Botts
> On Jun 3, 2015, at 8:24 AM, Botts Chuck wrote:
>
> Math is on screen 36 of PP of system.
>
> Chuck Botts
>> On Jun 3, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Jeremy wrote:
>>
>> I don't see how you can save $1/mile with gas at $3.47. At 7 mpg, you are only spending $.50 per mile in gas. So are you making gas as you go down the
>> road? If you go from 7 mpg to 10mpg, you go from $.50 to $.347, so it would save you $.153 per mile. On a $1400 investment, if you could get this 43%
>> increase in gas mileage, it would take 9150 miles to break even. Now that's a pretty reasonable break even time, but you are talking about a 43%
>> increase in gas mileage.
>>
>> There is simply no way you are saving $1/mile, and that is absolutely no comment on the efficacy of the system but simply that a GMC doesn't spend a
>> $1/mile going down the road at $3.47 per gallon of gas unless you are getting 3.5 miles to the gallon or less.
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> Jeremy Knezek
>> 1976 Glenbrook
>> Birmingham, AL
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #279070 is a reply to message #279069] |
Thu, 04 June 2015 17:51 |
Otterwan
Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...
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You're right, I apologize. I'm just surprised people are still taken in by this. The HHO thing has been going on for decades. In spite of all the science against it, assuming actually worked, wouldn't it be in common use by now? Wouldn't every backyard mechanic have installed it an proven it a 1000 times over? Wouldn't every taxi and town car have it installed? And yet they don't.
1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."
[Updated on: Thu, 04 June 2015 17:52] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Saving $1.00/mile with my HHO hybrid system [message #279086 is a reply to message #278948] |
Thu, 04 June 2015 21:21 |
An87ttype
Messages: 157
Registered: September 2012
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Although I agree getting an HHO system to work is probably more trouble than it's worth, it is true that Injecting anything that will increase the octane will help the mpg's. Even GM had planned an alcohal injection back in the 80's. My Buick TType had the indicator on the dashboard that said "power injection". You could see it if the light was just right. My understanding was that it was scrapped mainly because of the extra regulations from having a tank of alcohol. I'm thinking the survey said you could never get the average driver to bother jerking around filling it up. I know my wife would never would.
Anyway, the point is, if you can increase the octane, you can advance the timing and tune for better mileage. I currently have mine tuned so there is just a slight ping when really pushing it. I'm getting about 8.5 to 9 mpg on regular gas depending on a whole host of other factors, like weather, hills, running the a/c, traffic, etc etc. If I could always get 116 octane race gas, I bet it could probably be tuned to get 11mpg. Since I do believe that an HHO system will increase the octane, it should help, if you can tune specifically to the higher octane. I just personally wouldn't want to deal with running out of HHO and all the additional maintenance and potential problems. Probably the main reason most HHO experiments never end up being used for long.
1975 Eleganza II
Hudson Valley NY
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