Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question
[GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271405] |
Sun, 08 February 2015 10:34 |
glwgmc
Messages: 1014 Registered: June 2004
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I don't want to be a worry wart, but I just don't feel comfortable relying on what we call "Conventional wisdom" when it comes to something as critical as the oil level in our heavily taxed engines. I am looking for a definitive way to measure the actual oil level in the pan.
The conventional wisdom of adding 5 quarts at a change and then calibrating the dip stick to that level is based on a bone stock system. Dial ahead 40 years and many coaches now have different cooler lines, aluminum radiators, external oil coolers, etc., all of which add to the volume of the system upon which that conventional wisdom is based. With only 3 quarts in the sump of a stock system full, a relatively small change in system volume, say one quart, has us driving down the road with just 2 quarts in the sump at what that calibration would call the full mark and at the add mark there is only one quart of oil in the sump! Too little for my sense of well being for sure.
Think a one quart change is system volume is a lot? A Derale 15550 fan assisted external engine oil cooler, for example, holds 19.6 oz or nearly 2/3 of a quart all by itself. I don't know how much additional oil it takes to fill the engine oil cooler in an aluminum radiator over a stock one but it certainly looks like it would be significant in the scheme of things. A larger oil filter that some are using might well take several ounces more than the stock filter. Start adding all these seemingly little things together and we might well be running seven quart systems rather than six quart systems.
We can certainly guess and adjust accordingly but we know if we are off by having too much oil in the system the excess will be burned off quickly and if too little we are at risk of damaging bearings and not pulling heat out of the engine properly. I would prefer to know exactly where full really is on any given combination of engine, radiator, lines, coolers, etc.
Any one have a thought on how to do this?
Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
Visitors always welcome!
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271406 is a reply to message #271405] |
Sun, 08 February 2015 11:49 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
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This is referenced to the quote glwgmc (Jerry Work) wrote on Sun, 08 February 2015 11:34
Jerry,
You are correct to be concerned.
In the case of the Olds 455, the stated refill capacity is definitely wrong for an engine in stock trim. I when about this long and hard early in my ownership. At the fill mark, the top quart goes away fast. Much of it through the crankcase vent system. (I only say most because I can't prove - all.)
While the lube oil handling may have been modified over the years, if it does not completely drain during a lube oil service, it does not matter. This is something that will have to be determined on a individual basis.
Being an "insider" I know that service manuals and instructions are usually produced by staff technical writers maybe with the assistance of junior engineers and neither of whom may have much real hands on experience. So, when to go to the oil guy and ask what the lube oil capacity his he will tell them. What they should have done was go down to dyno (where they did the oil consumption tests) and asked what the re-fill capacity actually was. They would know.
Then, there is the other issue. The actual dipstick (lube oil level indicator for purists). I don't even know how many are original. Mine probably is, it would not surprise me if it were not. I have never looked for the part number.
So, my advice in this matter is simple. Using a good, but not synthetic lube oil, fill the engine to the full mark and run it a while. Keep notes on how fast the level drops. At some mileage, the level may radically change the rate of decrease. Try to confirm that with addition of lube oil. If it is repeatable, that is your new full mark.
Case: When I brought the coach home, I changed the oil. We did some work and went off on a 2500 mile trek. I added a quart every 500 miles. Until my stock was depleted and then I brought more at our next good stop. When I went to check, I expected to have to add 2 more quarts, but the stick was only a little more 1 quart low. Another 500 miles it was now 1-1/2 quarts low. I added 1/2. At the next stop it was 1/4 low. So, I recalibrated my thinking to 2000 miles per quart and that is what it has been for the last 40k+ miles.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271425 is a reply to message #271405] |
Sun, 08 February 2015 17:01 |
Brian Waddell
Messages: 409 Registered: March 2010
Karma: -4
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just a thought...this is what I didd on a hydraulic system....tee into the drain plug hole and run a sight tube up the side of the engine???....btian 77 ele 455
> From: glwork@mac.com
> Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 08:34:13 -0800
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question
>
> I don't want to be a worry wart, but I just don't feel comfortable relying on what we call "Conventional wisdom" when it comes to something as critical as the oil level in our heavily taxed engines. I am looking for a definitive way to measure the actual oil level in the pan.
>
> The conventional wisdom of adding 5 quarts at a change and then calibrating the dip stick to that level is based on a bone stock system. Dial ahead 40 years and many coaches now have different cooler lines, aluminum radiators, external oil coolers, etc., all of which add to the volume of the system upon which that conventional wisdom is based. With only 3 quarts in the sump of a stock system full, a relatively small change in system volume, say one quart, has us driving down the road with just 2 quarts in the sump at what that calibration would call the full mark and at the add mark there is only one quart of oil in the sump! Too little for my sense of well being for sure.
>
> Think a one quart change is system volume is a lot? A Derale 15550 fan assisted external engine oil cooler, for example, holds 19.6 oz or nearly 2/3 of a quart all by itself. I don't know how much additional oil it takes to fill the engine oil cooler in an aluminum radiator over a stock one but it certainly looks like it would be significant in the scheme of things. A larger oil filter that some are using might well take several ounces more than the stock filter. Start adding all these seemingly little things together and we might well be running seven quart systems rather than six quart systems.
>
> We can certainly guess and adjust accordingly but we know if we are off by having too much oil in the system the excess will be burned off quickly and if too little we are at risk of damaging bearings and not pulling heat out of the engine properly. I would prefer to know exactly where full really is on any given combination of engine, radiator, lines, coolers, etc.
>
> Any one have a thought on how to do this?
>
> Jerry
> Jerry Work
> The Dovetail Joint
> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
> Visitors always welcome!
> glwork@mac.com
> http://jerrywork.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271426 is a reply to message #271425] |
Sun, 08 February 2015 17:56 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Brian,
That's the best suggestion I've heard yet. It would be simple to fabricate
a temporary sight gauge to be used while calibrating the dipstick. I
wouldn't want to drive far with it installed, but one could R&R it without
losing a lot of oil.
By the way, here's my photo of 3q. in the pan:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-oil-pan-capacity/p10644.html
And here's the best photo I've got showing that the 3q. corresponds to the
FULL mark. Not quite so obvious is that the rod caps will just clear the
oil pool at that level -- avoiding the foaming and power loss that would
result if they became submerged.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-oil-pan-capacity/p10810.html
It's also interesting to note that the level marks on the dipstick, because
it is not perpendicular to the oil's surface, actually indicate a range of
~+-1/8". Ain't nuthin' very accurate about all this!
All of which says that your temporary sight gauge should show FULL at
4-3/8" below the pan flange -- IMHO.
Ken H.
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:01 PM, Brian Waddell wrote:
> just a thought...this is what I didd on a hydraulic system....tee into the
> drain plug hole and run a sight tube up the side of the engine???....btian
> 77 ele 455
>
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Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271441 is a reply to message #271405] |
Sun, 08 February 2015 20:34 |
mild bill
Messages: 98 Registered: November 2014 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Yeah a drain plug drilled with a nipple and some clear tubing would suffice. Get an idea where the crank bob weights go down to in the pan, don't really recall on the olds and keep the level just below 1/2" ? the crank and if you have a cooler that is located higher than the bottom of the crank do your measurement while running as you will have some drain back when engine is shut off.
I have seen many engines that will go an oil change interval somewhat down from dipstick mark but will continue to get rid of oil at dipstick level.
You don't want running oil level hitting the crankshaft weights, windage is the least of your problems but the crankshaft whipping the oil in the pan will introduce air into the oil and lower oil pressure.
If the level goes higher during shut down because of a higher oil cooler it's less of a problem during cranking than running unless it's -40 degrees and as long as it's not above the bottom of the rear main, pan rails etc or you can expect more leaks.
More oil the better IMO but not hitting the crank.
Hopefully level to high so you can just take tube cutter and cut the proper amount.
[Updated on: Sun, 08 February 2015 20:54] Report message to a moderator
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271458 is a reply to message #271405] |
Sun, 08 February 2015 23:39 |
Adrien G.
Messages: 474 Registered: May 2008 Location: Burns Flat, OK 73624
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Jerry,
I hear the concern that you (me and I think others) have on this subject. I too need to trust the oil level the dip stick shows in the oil pan.
What I see from picture #10810 shows the crank counterweight/rod caps at about the 3.5" mark, which I think should equal be the FULL (4 quarts) mark on the dip stick.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-oil-pan-capacity/p10810.html
Quart #5 which is mostly picked up by the oil filter, and quart #6 is the one that gets trapped in the forward pan. Any extra oil over the add (.5 qt. more or less) shouldn't bring the oil level up to where the rod caps and counterweights would whip the oil, but if it did, that would occur only be for the short time that it takes to pump the 1 quart throughout the engine.
Since 3 qts. equals ADD mark. Drain the pan sump (front sump also if you can), pour 3 qts. of oil through the left valve cover crank case breather hole, not the oil filler tube. The oil filler can traps an unknown quart in the front pan, where from the breather it would be more certain to just drain into the rear oil sump, and after a draining time, this would give a more trusting ADD level. Don't pour too fast, or oil can drain to the front of the head also.
Calibrate the dip stick to read ADD, then pour quart #4 the same way to get the FULL level. Now pour the rest of the oil through the oil filler tube, run engine and check to add needed oil. NOTE, the 6 qts. doesn't take into account for the lines to and the radiator oil cooler or what you have.
I've always tried to have about ½ qt. over full, so to have as much oil volume to cool and lube the lower engine.
JMT
glwgmc wrote on Sun, 08 February 2015 10:34I don't want to be a worry wart, but I just don't feel comfortable relying on what we call "Conventional wisdom" when it comes to something as critical as the oil level in our heavily taxed engines. I am looking for a definitive way to measure the actual oil level in the pan.
The conventional wisdom of adding 5 quarts at a change and then calibrating the dip stick to that level is based on a bone stock system. Dial ahead 40 years and many coaches now have different cooler lines, aluminum radiators, external oil coolers, etc., all of which add to the volume of the system upon which that conventional wisdom is based. With only 3 quarts in the sump of a stock system full, a relatively small change in system volume, say one quart, has us driving down the road with just 2 quarts in the sump at what that calibration would call the full mark and at the add mark there is only one quart of oil in the sump! Too little for my sense of well being for sure.
Think a one quart change is system volume is a lot? A Derale 15550 fan assisted external engine oil cooler, for example, holds 19.6 oz or nearly 2/3 of a quart all by itself. I don't know how much additional oil it takes to fill the engine oil cooler in an aluminum radiator over a stock one but it certainly looks like it would be significant in the scheme of things. A larger oil filter that some are using might well take several ounces more than the stock filter. Start adding all these seemingly little things together and we might well be running seven quart systems rather than six quart systems.
We can certainly guess and adjust accordingly but we know if we are off by having too much oil in the system the excess will be burned off quickly and if too little we are at risk of damaging bearings and not pulling heat out of the engine properly. I would prefer to know exactly where full really is on any given combination of engine, radiator, lines, coolers, etc.
Any one have a thought on how to do this?
Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
Visitors always welcome!
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
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Adrien & Jenny Genesoto
75 Glenbrook (26-3) Mods LS3.70 FD / Reaction Sys / 80mm Front&Intermidiate / Hydroboost / 16" Tires / Frame Rebuild / Interior Rebuild
Yuba City,Ca. Text 530-nine-3-three-3-nine-nine-6
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271460 is a reply to message #271459] |
Mon, 09 February 2015 01:02 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971 Registered: March 2013 Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
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The sight glass is a great idea. With the measurements given by Ken, it should be a simple procedure to find the full mark on the dipstick. You'll have to measure the oil level while static, engine off just as we measure our oil level. Doing it with the engine running would give a false reading with all the oil at the top of and through out the engine. You may have to crimp or block the oil cooler lines if they can drain back to the pan although they may not be able too. The way the oil is routed to the cooler seems it would eliminate the drain back, but I'm just guessing there. You would think that GM would have made alowances for drain back and dip stick calibrations if it were necessary. Just my thoughts,
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271461 is a reply to message #271405] |
Mon, 09 February 2015 04:02 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Guys, You are making this an unnecessary complex issue. The numbers and procedure I gave you is from my unmodified 455. The dipstick tube and dipstick on mine are still painted OEM blue. If you drain the oil and replace the filter, 5 quarts will fill it up to the full line. I use 1 quart of oil in 6000 miles so the oil is not being beat to death and foaming at that level. I have NEVER put 6 quarts in it and do not care to try it.
Having oil in an oil cooler or coolers does not really affect how much you drain because that oil is stuck after the oil pump and before being forced on through the filter and the engine. There is no path for air to enter that part of the system to allow oil to drain. So forget about that.
Drain the oil, replace the filter, and add 5 quarts of oil. Run the engine to fill the filter and shut it down. Wait 5 minutes and read the dipstick.
THAT IS THE FULL MARK.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271462 is a reply to message #271461] |
Mon, 09 February 2015 04:06 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Correction: The dipstick on mine is NOT painted blue. Only the tube is painted OEM blue.
Ken Burton wrote on Mon, 09 February 2015 04:02Guys, You are making this an unnecessary complex issue. The numbers and procedure I gave you is from my unmodified 455. The dipstick tube and dipstick on mine are still painted OEM blue. If you drain the oil and replace the filter, 5 quarts will fill it up to the full line. I use 1 quart of oil in 6000 miles so the oil is not being beat to death and foaming at that level. I have NEVER put 6 quarts in it and do not care to try it.
Having oil in an oil cooler or coolers does not really affect how much you drain because that oil is stuck after the oil pump and before being forced on through the filter and the engine. There is no path for air to enter that part of the system to allow oil to drain. So forget about that.
Drain the oil, replace the filter, and add 5 quarts of oil. Run the engine to fill the filter and shut it down. Wait 5 minutes and read the dipstick.
THAT IS THE FULL MARK.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271463 is a reply to message #271461] |
Mon, 09 February 2015 04:13 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Ken Burton wrote on Mon, 09 February 2015 04:02Guys, You are making this an unnecessary complex issue. The numbers and procedure I gave you is from my unmodified 455. The dipstick tube and dipstick on mine are still painted OEM blue. If you drain the oil and replace the filter, 5 quarts will fill it up to the full line. I use 1 quart of oil in 6000 miles so the oil is not being beat to death and foaming at that level. I have NEVER put 6 quarts in it and do not care to try it.
Having oil in an oil cooler or coolers does not really affect how much you drain because that oil is stuck after the oil pump and before being forced on through the filter and the engine. There is no path for air to enter that part of the system to allow oil to drain. So forget about that.
Drain the oil, replace the filter, and add 5 quarts of oil. Run the engine to fill the filter and shut it down. Wait 5 minutes and read the dipstick.
THAT IS THE FULL MARK.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271474 is a reply to message #271458] |
Mon, 09 February 2015 06:22 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Adrian,
The photo you should look at is
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-oil-pan-capacity/p10800.html
which more accurately shows the relationship of the various parts
(disregard the un-trimmed dipstick tube).
There, you'll see that the two rods just right of the dipstick tube are
near the bottom of their strokes and that they're at least 4" below the pan
flange. In other works, they swing to within less than 3/8" from the 3 q.
oil pool. If there's 4 q. in the deep end of the pan, the rods will
definitely be submerged.
I apologize to everyone for having not anticipated all these factors when I
originally made and posted the photos -- I could have made them more
clearly and less ambiguously display the parameters of interest.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 12:39 AM, Adrien Genesoto wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> I hear the concern that you (me and I think others) have on this subject.
> I too need to trust the oil level the dip stick shows in the oil pan.
> What I see from picture #10810 shows the crank counterweight/rod caps at
> about the 3.5" mark, which I think should equal be the FULL (4 quarts) mark
> on the dip stick.
> ...
>
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271487 is a reply to message #271461] |
Mon, 09 February 2015 08:53 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Ken Burton wrote on Mon, 09 February 2015 05:02Guys, You are making this an unnecessary complex issue. The numbers and procedure I gave you is from my unmodified 455. The dipstick tube and dipstick on mine are still painted OEM blue. If you drain the oil and replace the filter, 5 quarts will fill it up to the full line. I use 1 quart of oil in 6000 miles so the oil is not being beat to death and foaming at that level. I have NEVER put 6 quarts in it and do not care to try it.
Having oil in an oil cooler or coolers does not really affect how much you drain because that oil is stuck after the oil pump and before being forced on through the filter and the engine. There is no path for air to enter that part of the system to allow oil to drain. So forget about that.
Drain the oil, replace the filter, and add 5 quarts of oil. Run the engine to fill the filter and shut it down. Wait 5 minutes and read the dipstick.
THAT IS THE FULL MARK.
Ken,
Here in comes the rub..
When I drain,replace the filter and refill with 5 quarts, that gets the level to just over the "Add" mark. If I add another quart to get to the stick's full mark, that quart is gone in less than 500 miles. It will take at least another 1500 to get to a 2 quarts down mark.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271488 is a reply to message #271474] |
Mon, 09 February 2015 09:02 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Ken Henderson wrote on Mon, 09 February 2015 07:22Adrian,
The photo you should look at is http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-oil-pan-capacity/p10800.html
which more accurately shows the relationship of the various parts (disregard the un-trimmed dipstick tube).
There, you'll see that the two rods just right of the dipstick tube are near the bottom of their strokes and that they're at least 4" below the pan flange. In other works, they swing to within less than 3/8" from the 3 q. oil pool. If there's 4 q. in the deep end of the pan, the rods will definitely be submerged.
I apologize to everyone for having not anticipated all these factors when I originally made and posted the photos -- I could have made them more clearly and less ambiguously display the parameters of interest.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Wow Ken,
That sure is a definitive set of pictures.
One of the things those tell me is that there has got to be at least 2 quarts of oil "in process" when the engine is running.
That is a lot. But I sure can't complain. It doesn't actually cost anything to run that way.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271501 is a reply to message #271405] |
Mon, 09 February 2015 11:52 |
roy1
Messages: 2126 Registered: July 2004 Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Seems like replacing oil shouldn't be that complicated. I have an external oil cooler with about 4ft of 5/8" line tieing it in to the aluminum radiator cil cooler.after an initial oil fill I just drained the oil refilled with 6 quarts and a new filter adjusted the length of the dipstick too read full and I was done. I have about 1000 miles on the oil this trip and the dipstick still reads full. By the way I have 2 drains on my pan. I think I am close enough not to worry.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271552 is a reply to message #271501] |
Mon, 09 February 2015 22:28 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260 Registered: January 2004 Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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roy1 wrote on Mon, 09 February 2015 10:52Seems like replacing oil shouldn't be that complicated. I have an external oil cooler with about 4ft of 5/8" line tieing it in to the aluminum radiator cil cooler.after an initial oil fill I just drained the oil refilled with 6 quarts and a new filter adjusted the length of the dipstick too read full and I was done. I have about 1000 miles on the oil this trip and the dipstick still reads full. By the way I have 2 drains on my pan. I think I am close enough not to worry.
Ken is right on this. No matter what additional oil carrying devices have been added--full is full. This notion of burning off the first quart can happen if you are trying to second guess the dipstick and adding what you think is better. I know many people including myself who fill to the full mark and never see any quick burn off of the first quart. Although mistakes do happen in owners manuals, they do get corrected.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271608 is a reply to message #271405] |
Tue, 10 February 2015 10:01 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I stuff five qts in mine at change, and it shows full hot. 1500 miles or more, it's down a half, so I surmise the stick is reasonably accurate. I change it either around 3K or in the spring if it hasn't seen 3K yet.
I got to ask though. Matt's comment says 'non-synthetic oil'. Howcome?
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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