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| [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271367] |
Sat, 07 February 2015 17:51  |
glwgmc
Messages: 1014
Registered: June 2004
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The dip stick tube on the Clasco was found to be loose during the R&R of the new engine. It was replaced and secured in what should be the factory location. It was a major leak point so could have been part of the cause of the mysterious oil going somewhere issue.
When I got it home I noticed that the forward end of the dip stick tube in the Royale was way shorter than where it is in the Clasco. I found the dip stick tube in the Royale also was loose but could only pull it up to a point that it is still about 2" shorter than where the forward end of the dip stick tube is in the Clasco. The oil reads about 2" over full on the dip stick when it is pushed all the way in.
So, the question is how do I know for sure where full is in either engine? Conventional wisdom says the system holds 6 quarts when filled from dry and 5 quarts with a drain and fill, but KenH posted a bunch of pictures a while back of measurements he made with an engine on a stand. http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/455-oil-pan-capacity/p10641.html.
His measurements show that the front of the pan holds right at 1Q that will not drain back into the rear sump with the coach level. That matches conventional wisdom. His measurements also show that full on the factory dip stick occurs with only 3 quarts in the rear sump part of the pan. Conventional wisdom says it takes 5 quarts to fill the system at an oil change. Three quarts drained out of the rear sump, 1 quart stayed in the front of the pan, some (half quart?) stayed in the old filter so another quart and a half must have drained out of the radiator cooler and lines in order to equal the 6 quarts originally added to a dry engine.
In KenH's pics it takes 4 quarts to fill the sump end of the pan to just where it would spill over the hump, yet that is 1" higher than he measured relative to the full line on a factory dip stick so the engineers apparently thought it best to show full with only 3 quarts in the sump. The add mark is where you only have 2 quarts of oil in the sump which seems scary low to me.
So, back to the original question, how can I know for sure that either dip stick is properly calibrated? The Clasco showed a bit below the full mark when it was first filled with 6 quarts from dry, run for a bit to fill the filter, lines and cooler in its aluminum radiator (which is bigger than the stock radiator oil cooler by some amount) and its external engine oil cooler. When I got it home it showed lower than that so I added oil to bring it to the full line assuming the original six quarts from dry did not fully account for the difference in the size of the aluminum radiator cooler and the fact that the external oil cooler also stayed in place so it logically would have taken a bit more than 6 quarts to get to full.
Since the front end of the dip stick tube in the Royale appears to be about 2" further back from where the front end of the dip stick tube is in the Clasco, I added a temporary 2" spacer and measured the oil to be right at full in the Royale. So all appears ok, but I really would like to find a definitive way of knowing where full is on both engines.
Assuming KenH's measurements are spot on it would seem one way would be to drill a small hole in the side of the pan 4.5" down from the flange, drain and fill the engine, run it for a bit and add oil until oil weeps out that hole and then seal the hole. That should be full no matter how the capacity differs from stock given the aluminum radiator, larger lines or filter or any external oil coolers or how far the dip stick tub goes into pan if I am thinking correctly. The dip stick could then be calibrated to properly show full. Any thoughts or ideas from the brain trust?
Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
Visitors always welcome!
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
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Jerry & Sharon Work
78 Royale
Kerby, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271370 is a reply to message #271367] |
Sat, 07 February 2015 19:04  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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I tried following all of that and got lost, so here is what I have measured on my 455 engine.
When I change my oil and filter it takes exactly 5 quarts to refill it to he full mark. So if you are in doubt on the correct level mark on the stick, simply drain all of the oil and remove the filter. Replace the filter with a new empty one and add 5 quarts of oil. Start the engine and let it run for 30 seconds or more. Then turn it off. Let it sit for 5 minutes to get all of the oil to drain back to the pan.
Now you have the correct level and can observe were it is on your dipstick. If it is off you can make your adjustments to the tube, or stick, or the mark on the stick to match the current level.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271375 is a reply to message #271370] |
Sat, 07 February 2015 20:24 |
Gary Berry
Messages: 1002
Registered: May 2005
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Great information. A lot of us drive at a quart low so we don't use as much oil. I'm thinking about calibrating my dipstick to this new 4 quart level instead of the 5 quart level.
Gary Berry
Currently in Caballo, NM
Sent from my Revolution
> On Feb 7, 2015, at 6:04 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
>
> I tried following all of that and got lost, so here is what I have measured on my 455 engine.
>
> When I change my oil and filter it takes exactly 5 quarts to refill it to he full mark. So if you are in doubt on the correct level mark on the
> stick, simply drain all of the oil and remove the filter. Replace the filter with a new empty one and add 5 quarts of oil. Start the engine and let
> it run for 30 seconds or more. Then turn it off. Let it sit for 5 minutes to get all of the oil to drain back to the pan.
>
> Now you have the correct level and can observe were it is on your dipstick. If it is off you can make your adjustments to the tube, or stick, or the
> mark on the stick to match the current level.
>
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271383 is a reply to message #271375] |
Sat, 07 February 2015 23:13 |
powwerjon
Messages: 849
Registered: March 2013
Karma: -2
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Garry,
You need to be aware that the engine is 6 quarts when full to the line. You can only change out 5 quarts with the oil change as almost 1 quart is left and not drained out of the pan.
J.R. Wright
30' Buskirk Stretch
Michigan
On Location in Tucson
> On Feb 7, 2015, at 7:24 PM, Duallycc wrote:
>
> Great information. A lot of us drive at a quart low so we don't use as much oil. I'm thinking about calibrating my dipstick to this new 4 quart level instead of the 5 quart level.
>
> Gary Berry
> Currently in Caballo, NM
>
> Sent from my Revolution
>
>> On Feb 7, 2015, at 6:04 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
>>
>> I tried following all of that and got lost, so here is what I have measured on my 455 engine.
>>
>> When I change my oil and filter it takes exactly 5 quarts to refill it to he full mark. So if you are in doubt on the correct level mark on the
>> stick, simply drain all of the oil and remove the filter. Replace the filter with a new empty one and add 5 quarts of oil. Start the engine and let
>> it run for 30 seconds or more. Then turn it off. Let it sit for 5 minutes to get all of the oil to drain back to the pan.
>>
>> Now you have the correct level and can observe were it is on your dipstick. If it is off you can make your adjustments to the tube, or stick, or the
>> mark on the stick to match the current level.
>>
>> --
>> Ken Burton - N9KB
>> 76 Palm Beach
>> Hebron, Indiana
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271404 is a reply to message #271367] |
Sun, 08 February 2015 10:39 |
Emery Stora
Messages: 959
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 4
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I don't think draining the oil pan and filter is going to drain the oil cooler and cooler lines
Emery Stora
> On Feb 8, 2015, at 9:34 AM, Gerald Work wrote:
>
> I don't want to be a worry wart, but I just don't feel comfortable relying on what we call "Conventional wisdom" when it comes to something as critical as the oil level in our heavily taxed engines. I am looking for a definitive way to measure the actual oil level in the pan.
>
> The conventional wisdom of adding 5 quarts at a change and then calibrating the dip stick to that level is based on a bone stock system. Dial ahead 40 years and many coaches now have different cooler lines, aluminum radiators, external oil coolers, etc., all of which add to the volume of the system upon which that conventional wisdom is based. With only 3 quarts in the sump of a stock system full, a relatively small change in system volume, say one quart, has us driving down the road with just 2 quarts in the sump at what that calibration would call the full mark and at the add mark there is only one quart of oil in the sump! Too little for my sense of well being for sure.
>
> Think a one quart change is system volume is a lot? A Derale 15550 fan assisted external engine oil cooler, for example, holds 19.6 oz or nearly 2/3 of a quart all by itself. I don't know how much additional oil it takes to fill the engine oil cooler in an aluminum radiator over a stock one but it certainly looks like it would be significant in the scheme of things. A larger oil filter that some are using might well take several ounces more than the stock filter. Start adding all these seemingly little things together and we might well be running seven quart systems rather than six quart systems.
>
> We can certainly guess and adjust accordingly but we know if we are off by having too much oil in the system the excess will be burned off quickly and if too little we are at risk of damaging bearings and not pulling heat out of the engine properly. I would prefer to know exactly where full really is on any given combination of engine, radiator, lines, coolers, etc.
>
> Any one have a thought on how to do this?
>
> Jerry
> Jerry Work
> The Dovetail Joint
> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
> Visitors always welcome!
> glwork@mac.com
> http://jerrywork.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271409 is a reply to message #271404] |
Sun, 08 February 2015 11:54 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Jerry, once the system is full, including the filter, lines, radiator
cooler, auxillary cooler, and the front of the oil pan that some say does
not empty when changing oil, what SHOULD remain in the deep part of the
sump if the system is full, is 5 quarts. Drain the oil from the sump and
unscrew the filter, catching it's contents into the same oil pan. Measure
that amount, and replace that amount. Mark the stick.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Emery Stora wrote:
> I don't think draining the oil pan and filter is going to drain the oil
> cooler and cooler lines
>
> Emery Stora
>
>> On Feb 8, 2015, at 9:34 AM, Gerald Work wrote:
>>
>> I don't want to be a worry wart, but I just don't feel comfortable
> relying on what we call "Conventional wisdom" when it comes to something as
> critical as the oil level in our heavily taxed engines. I am looking for a
> definitive way to measure the actual oil level in the pan.
>>
>> The conventional wisdom of adding 5 quarts at a change and then
> calibrating the dip stick to that level is based on a bone stock system.
> Dial ahead 40 years and many coaches now have different cooler lines,
> aluminum radiators, external oil coolers, etc., all of which add to the
> volume of the system upon which that conventional wisdom is based. With
> only 3 quarts in the sump of a stock system full, a relatively small change
> in system volume, say one quart, has us driving down the road with just 2
> quarts in the sump at what that calibration would call the full mark and at
> the add mark there is only one quart of oil in the sump! Too little for my
> sense of well being for sure.
>>
>> Think a one quart change is system volume is a lot? A Derale 15550 fan
> assisted external engine oil cooler, for example, holds 19.6 oz or nearly
> 2/3 of a quart all by itself. I don't know how much additional oil it
> takes to fill the engine oil cooler in an aluminum radiator over a stock
> one but it certainly looks like it would be significant in the scheme of
> things. A larger oil filter that some are using might well take several
> ounces more than the stock filter. Start adding all these seemingly little
> things together and we might well be running seven quart systems rather
> than six quart systems.
>>
>> We can certainly guess and adjust accordingly but we know if we are off
> by having too much oil in the system the excess will be burned off quickly
> and if too little we are at risk of damaging bearings and not pulling heat
> out of the engine properly. I would prefer to know exactly where full
> really is on any given combination of engine, radiator, lines, coolers, etc.
>>
>> Any one have a thought on how to do this?
>>
>> Jerry
>> Jerry Work
>> The Dovetail Joint
>> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic
> Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
>> Visitors always welcome!
>> glwork@mac.com
>> http://jerrywork.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Dip stick calibration question [message #271413 is a reply to message #271367] |
Sun, 08 February 2015 12:15 |
<rallymaster
Messages: 361
Registered: May 2014
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Check the dipstick and measure oil level from bottom of stick. Write it
down. Into a large container, drain the pan, drain the filter, remove the
pan, dump the front section, replace the pan and plug, let it sit
overnight (or longer), remove the pan again, and measure the total amount
of oil drained.
Replace the pan, add 4 qts, briefly run the engine to fill the filter,
etc. Check oil level on disptick. Measure and compare. Add another
quart, measure and compare. Make your best guess from the above
procedure.
RonC
On Sun, 08 Feb 2015 09:39:15 -0700 Emery Stora
writes:
> I don't think draining the oil pan and filter is going to drain the
> oil cooler and cooler lines
>
> Emery Stora
>
>> On Feb 8, 2015, at 9:34 AM, Gerald Work wrote:
>>
>> I don't want to be a worry wart, but I just don't feel comfortable
> relying on what we call "Conventional wisdom" when it comes to
> something as critical as the oil level in our heavily taxed engines.
> I am looking for a definitive way to measure the actual oil level
> in the pan.
>>
>> The conventional wisdom of adding 5 quarts at a change and then
> calibrating the dip stick to that level is based on a bone stock
> system. Dial ahead 40 years and many coaches now have different
> cooler lines, aluminum radiators, external oil coolers, etc., all of
> which add to the volume of the system upon which that conventional
> wisdom is based. With only 3 quarts in the sump of a stock system
> full, a relatively small change in system volume, say one quart, has
> us driving down the road with just 2 quarts in the sump at what that
> calibration would call the full mark and at the add mark there is
> only one quart of oil in the sump! Too little for my sense of well
> being for sure.
>>
>> Think a one quart change is system volume is a lot? A Derale
> 15550 fan assisted external engine oil cooler, for example, holds
> 19.6 oz or nearly 2/3 of a quart all by itself. I don't know how
> much additional oil it takes to fill the engine oil cooler in an
> aluminum radiator over a stock one but it certainly looks like it
> would be significant in the scheme of things. A larger oil filter
> that some are using might well take several ounces more than the
> stock filter. Start adding all these seemingly little things
> together and we might well be running seven quart systems rather
> than six quart systems.
>>
>> We can certainly guess and adjust accordingly but we know if we are
> off by having too much oil in the system the excess will be burned
> off quickly and if too little we are at risk of damaging bearings
> and not pulling heat out of the engine properly. I would prefer to
> know exactly where full really is on any given combination of
> engine, radiator, lines, coolers, etc.
>>
>> Any one have a thought on how to do this?
>>
>> Jerry
>> Jerry Work
>> The Dovetail Joint
>> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former
> Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
>> Visitors always welcome!
>> glwork@mac.com
>> http://jerrywork.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
Ron & Linda Clark
North Plains, ORYGUN
78 Eleganza II
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