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| Virtual suspension site [message #268556] |
Wed, 31 December 2014 07:25  |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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Has anyone ever plugged the dimensions for the OEM and 1 ton into this site to compare how each behaves?
http://www.vsusp.com
Seems you need to save the address line as a favorite to save your inputted dimensions
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: [GMCnet] Virtual suspension site [message #268568 is a reply to message #268556] |
Wed, 31 December 2014 10:42  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Bruce,
Be sure to let us know the results! :-)
​Kosier insisted that I measure camber change while I was installing my
1-Ton, but I'd already installed the torsion bars so couldn't get much
jounce, so that didn't happen. :-)
Ken H.
On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 8:25 AM, Bruce Hislop wrote:
> Has anyone ever plugged the dimensions for the OEM and 1 ton into this
> site to compare how each behaves?
>
> http://www.vsusp.com
>
> Seems you need to save the address line as a favorite to save your
> inputted dimensions
>
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Ken Henderson
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Virtual suspension site [message #268572 is a reply to message #268568] |
Wed, 31 December 2014 14:26 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Ken,
Bob Drewes did that already:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6613-bob-drewes-1-ton-installation.html
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Bruce,
Be sure to let us know the results! :-)
​Kosier insisted that I measure camber change while I was installing my
1-Ton, but I'd already installed the torsion bars so couldn't get much
jounce, so that didn't happen. :-)
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Virtual suspension site [message #268583 is a reply to message #268582] |
Wed, 31 December 2014 17:40 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
YouÂ’re a better man than I am, I couldn't figger it out! I'll have to go back and look at it some more. :-)
BTW if you want to create a ° symbol just hold down the Alt key and type 0 1 7 6 and when you release the Alt key the ° symbol will
appear where the cursor was.
For example 1°
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2015 10:28 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Virtual suspension site
Neat! That's just about what I would have guessed: 1" vertical travel ~=
1* camber
Ken H.
On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Bruce Hislop wrote:
> Here is what my eye-balled measurements came out like. I'm sure others
> have much more accurate measurements so feel free to correct mine.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/pxpv63c
>
> The measurements are stored in the URL info so be sure to save it as a
> favourite if you wish to keep it. Make it into a shortened URL to share it.
>
> You can then see what happens to camber as height changes and roll etc.
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop
> ON Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
> Hubler 1 ton front end
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Virtual suspension site [message #268595 is a reply to message #268583] |
Wed, 31 December 2014 20:29 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Rob,
You'll just have to do what I did -- same as in the early microcomputer
days. Back then folks would ask me "how did you learn all this stuff?" My
honest answer was "I tried all the wrong ways and learned all the errors."
That's what I still do. But back then I could remember those errors; now
they won't last into 2015. :-)
I don't think there is an ASCII double-squiggly symbol, thus the
"approximately equal": ~= :-)
Did you get that scarey C-130 tale from Mac? Wow!
Happy New Year, you already being there and all.
Ken
On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 6:40 PM, Robert Mueller
wrote:
> Ken,
>
> You’re a better man than I am, I couldn't figger it out! I'll have to go
> back and look at it some more. :-)
>
> BTW if you want to create a ° symbol just hold down the Alt key and type 0
> 1 7 6 and when you release the Alt key the ° symbol will
> appear where the cursor was.
>
> For example 1°
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Virtual suspension site [message #268602 is a reply to message #268595] |
Thu, 01 January 2015 04:13 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I'll go look at it again when I have a bit of time, I'm trying to finish up the steering column / slip shaft / steering box
procedure at the moment.
I haven't found an ASCII double squiggly symbol but Alt 0177 will produce (±).
Yes Mac sent me the C-130 story and naturally I thought of you INSTANTLY! If anyone else is interested let me know and I'll forward
it to you.
Thanks, I spent the day cleaning up our courtyard as Helen has a bunch of her University friends coming over on Sunday, we're making
Tex - Mex!
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Rob,
You'll just have to do what I did -- same as in the early microcomputer
days. Back then folks would ask me "how did you learn all this stuff?" My
honest answer was "I tried all the wrong ways and learned all the errors."
That's what I still do. But back then I could remember those errors; now
they won't last into 2015. :-)
I don't think there is an ASCII double-squiggly symbol, thus the
"approximately equal": ~= :-)
Did you get that scarey C-130 tale from Mac? Wow!
Happy New Year, you already being there and all.
Ken
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Virtual suspension site [message #268774 is a reply to message #268556] |
Sat, 03 January 2015 10:30 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
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The 1 ton looks pretty good but the OEM motion is awful if you put in droop and body roll as in hard cornering with brakes on.
I worked with this same site on my 3 wheel car as the suspension was not right.
http://tinyurl.com/qcymphv
Fun stuff to play with.
Fred V
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: Virtual suspension site [message #268890 is a reply to message #268597] |
Sun, 04 January 2015 19:34 |
bwevers
Messages: 597
Registered: October 2010
Location: San Jose
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Don,
Here are my measurements from my Hubler One Ton conversion.
=========== terminology from website============ www.vsusp.com
Frame center to lower mount X 21.5
Frame bottom to lower mount Y 1.75
Frame center to upper mount X 25.3
Frame bottom to upper mount Y 11
Distance between upper and lower mounts 10
Upper Control Arm length 9.25
Lower Control Arm length 15
1Ton Hub to upper ball joint X = 8.375
1Ton Hub to upper ball joint Y = 6.75
1Ton Hub to lower ball joint X = 6
1Ton Hub to lower ball joint Y = 4.25
Wheel offset = 4"
One ton track 81"
I don't have an original knuckle to measure.
But I know the one ton knuckle is 2 inches higher, upper ball joint to lower ball joint.
And the track with the original would be narrow at 72 to 73 inches.
Regards,
Bill
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
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| Re: [GMCnet] Virtual suspension site [message #268891 is a reply to message #268583] |
Sun, 04 January 2015 19:40 |
Otterwan
Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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USAussie wrote on Wed, 31 December 2014 15:40Ken,
BTW if you want to create a ° symbol just hold down the Alt key and type 0 1 7 6 and when you release the Alt key the ° symbol will
appear where the cursor was.
For example 1°
Alt 248 works too, and one less keystroke! 1°
1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."
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| Re: [GMCnet] Virtual suspension site [message #268911 is a reply to message #268891] |
Mon, 05 January 2015 06:24 |
Olly Schmidt
Messages: 1265
Registered: February 2014
Location: Germany and Scottsville, ...
Karma: 8
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Senior Member |
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David,
> USAussie wrote on Wed, 31 December 2014 15:40
>> Ken,
>>
>> BTW if you want to create a ° symbol just hold down the Alt key and type 0 1 7 6 and when you release the Alt key the ° symbol will
>> appear where the cursor was.
>>
>> For example 1°
>
> Alt 248 works too, and one less keystroke! 1°
>
Change to the German keyboard and hit the key to the left of the 1. Even
less keystrokes :*)
1°
--
Best regards
Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA
'76a Eleganza II, VA
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Best regards
Olly Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x18a9 3a1f 4196 bf22
'76a Eleganza II, VA
'73 Sequoia, SH, Germany
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| Re: Virtual suspension site [message #268952 is a reply to message #268890] |
Tue, 06 January 2015 01:47 |
djeffers
Messages: 219
Registered: June 2004
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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bwevers wrote on Sun, 04 January 2015 20:34Don,
Here are my measurements from my Hubler One Ton conversion.
=========== terminology from website============ www.vsusp.com
Frame center to lower mount X 21.5
Frame bottom to lower mount Y 1.75
Frame center to upper mount X 25.3
Frame bottom to upper mount Y 11
Distance between upper and lower mounts 10
Upper Control Arm length 9.25
Lower Control Arm length 15
1Ton Hub to upper ball joint X = 8.375
1Ton Hub to upper ball joint Y = 6.75
1Ton Hub to lower ball joint X = 6
1Ton Hub to lower ball joint Y = 4.25
Wheel offset = 4"
One ton track 81"
I don't have an original knuckle to measure.
But I know the one ton knuckle is 2 inches higher, upper ball joint to lower ball joint.
And the track with the original would be narrow at 72 to 73 inches.
Regards,
Bill
Hello Bill,
Thanks for the dimensions.
Your measurements on the frame correspond fairly well with Bruce Hislop's. Tape measure dimensions are good enough.
Your measurements on your Hubler steering knuckle compared to Bruce's 1 ton at http://tinyurl.com/pxpv63c and Bruce's OEM shown at http://tinyurl.com/khuotex shown in the earlier posts in this thread are:
Bill: Hubler 1 Ton
1Ton Hub to upper ball joint X = 8.375
1Ton Hub to upper ball joint Y = 6.75
1Ton Hub to lower ball joint X = 6
1Ton Hub to lower ball joint Y = 4.25
Bruce: 1 Ton at http://tinyurl.com/pxp
1 ton Hub to upper ball joint X = 10.7
1 ton Hub to upper ball joint Y = 7
1 ton Hub to lower ball joint X = 8.5
1 ton Hub to lower ball joint Y = 6.5
Bruce: OEM at http://tinyurl.com/khuotex
OEM Hub to upper ball joint X = 8
OEM Hub to upper ball joint Y = 4.5
OEM Hub to lower ball joint X = 6
OEM Hub to lower ball joint Y = 5.5
The hub to lower ball joint Y dimension is the critical dimension I am concerned with at this point. Of course all four hub to ball joint dimensions need to be correct in the final analysis.
These 1 Ton different measurements bring up two questions:
1. Does the Hubler 1 ton you have use a different steering knuckle than the 1 Ton sold by others?
2. Which ball joint surfaces are you measuring to? If the steering knuckles are the same, perhaps you and Bruce are measuring to different points on the same steering knuckle?
Ideally, the steering knuckle measurements would be from hub face to centers of the ball joints. Alternatively, the measurement could be to the ball joint seat side of the steering knuckle and the ball joint seat to center dimension added or subtracted an appropriate.
I've got a couple of OEM steering knuckles someplace, but couldn't find them this evening to check the OEM dimensions.
Thanks for your efforts measuring the Hubler 1 Ton. I know that takes a bit of work.
Don and Susan Jeffers
78 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Virtual suspension site [message #268966 is a reply to message #268952] |
Tue, 06 January 2015 06:59 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Don,
I've got several bare OEM knuckles on the shelf if you need any dimensions
from those -- but no ball joints to get spherical center to spherical
center measurements.
Ken H.
On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:47 AM, Don Jeffers
wrote:
> bwevers wrote on Sun, 04 January 2015 20:34
>> Don,
>> Here are my measurements from my Hubler One Ton conversion.
>>
>> =========== terminology from website============ www.vsusp.com
>> Frame center to lower mount X 21.5
>> Frame bottom to lower mount Y 1.75
>> Frame center to upper mount X 25.3
>> Frame bottom to upper mount Y 11
>> Distance between upper and lower mounts 10
>> Upper Control Arm length 9.25
>> Lower Control Arm length 15
>>
>> 1Ton Hub to upper ball joint X = 8.375
>> 1Ton Hub to upper ball joint Y = 6.75
>> 1Ton Hub to lower ball joint X = 6
>> 1Ton Hub to lower ball joint Y = 4.25
>> Wheel offset = 4"
>> One ton track 81"
>>
>> I don't have an original knuckle to measure.
>> But I know the one ton knuckle is 2 inches higher, upper ball joint to
> lower ball joint.
>> And the track with the original would be narrow at 72 to 73 inches.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bill
>
>
> Hello Bill,
>
> Thanks for the dimensions.
>
> Your measurements on the frame correspond fairly well with Bruce Hislop's.
> Tape measure dimensions are good enough.
>
> Your measurements on your Hubler steering knuckle compared to Bruce's 1
> ton at http://tinyurl.com/pxpv63c and Bruce's OEM shown at
> http://tinyurl.com/khuotex shown in the earlier posts in this thread are:
>
> Bill: Hubler 1 Ton
> 1Ton Hub to upper ball joint X = 8.375
> 1Ton Hub to upper ball joint Y = 6.75
> 1Ton Hub to lower ball joint X = 6
> 1Ton Hub to lower ball joint Y = 4.25
>
> Bruce: 1 Ton at http://tinyurl.com/pxp
> 1 ton Hub to upper ball joint X = 10.7
> 1 ton Hub to upper ball joint Y = 7
> 1 ton Hub to lower ball joint X = 8.5
> 1 ton Hub to lower ball joint Y = 6.5
>
> Bruce: OEM at http://tinyurl.com/khuotex
> OEM Hub to upper ball joint X = 8
> OEM Hub to upper ball joint Y = 4.5
> OEM Hub to lower ball joint X = 6
> OEM Hub to lower ball joint Y = 5.5
>
> The hub to lower ball joint Y dimension is the critical dimension I am
> concerned with at this point. Of course all four hub to ball joint
> dimensions
> need to be correct in the final analysis.
>
> These 1 Ton different measurements bring up two questions:
> 1. Does the Hubler 1 ton you have use a different steering knuckle than
> the 1 Ton sold by others?
> 2. Which ball joint surfaces are you measuring to? If the steering
> knuckles are the same, perhaps you and Bruce are measuring to different
> points on
> the same steering knuckle?
>
> Ideally, the steering knuckle measurements would be from hub face to
> centers of the ball joints. Alternatively, the measurement could be to the
> ball
> joint seat side of the steering knuckle and the ball joint seat to center
> dimension added or subtracted an appropriate.
>
> I've got a couple of OEM steering knuckles someplace, but couldn't find
> them this evening to check the OEM dimensions.
>
> Thanks for your efforts measuring the Hubler 1 Ton. I know that takes a
> bit of work.
>
>
> Don and Susan Jeffers
> 78 Eleganza II
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Virtual suspension site [message #269023 is a reply to message #268966] |
Tue, 06 January 2015 16:01 |
djeffers
Messages: 219
Registered: June 2004
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Ken Henderson wrote on Tue, 06 January 2015 07:59Don,
I've got several bare OEM knuckles on the shelf if you need any dimensions
from those -- but no ball joints to get spherical center to spherical
center measurements.
Ken H.
On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 2:47 AM, Don Jeffers
wrote:
[color=teal]>>
> I've got a couple of OEM steering knuckles someplace, but couldn't find
> them . . . to check the OEM dimensions.
Thanks for the offer Ken.
What I should have said is that I've got a couple of OEM steering knuckles WITH HUBS, DISCS AND SPACER ASSEMBLIES someplace, but couldn't find them this evening to check the OEM dimensions; my statement to Bill wasn't clear. Susan has volunteered to search the garage and parts pile for the assemblies; she has found stuff before.
As you know, VSUSP uses the measurement from the hub face where the wheel mounts against to the ball joint centers in the X and Y planes.
I want to model an accurate VSUSP OEM front end to use for an exemplar of the good, best or at least acceptable front end geometry for our GMCs and then model an accurate 1 Ton front end to propose some improvements for the 1 Ton geometry.
Having never been closer to a 1 Ton front end than what I've read and seen on the forum, I see perhaps three possible issues with the 1 Ton:
Problems 1 and 2.
1. The excessive angularity of the upper A-Arm.
2. The spindle being higher up on the knuckle than OEM, causing a lowering of the coach. Do you know if this is true? If so, this requires jacking the coach up on the torsion bars, resulting in more angularity of the lower A Arm.
If the spindle height is different, I would like to know that difference accurately.
Both of these A-Arm angularity problems cause excessive and erratic camber change on bump and rebound.
An excessively angled, jacked up, lower A-Arm immediately makes the camber change go negative and then back in the positive direction as it comes up and through the horizontal plane.
Then the already excessively angled upper A-Arm goes even more angled on bump causing even more negative camber change. The result is an erratic and wonky camber curve compared to OEM; okay for cruisin' but could be improved upon.
Problem 3.
The third problem I've heard referred to is bump steer.
The excessive camber change alone certainly affects bump steer.
But a third geometry issue I wonder about is the location of the outer tie rod end spherical center when using the 1 Ton knuckle.
If the 1 Ton outer tie rod end changes the angle between the tie rod and the plane of, primarily, the lower A-Arm, then bump steer is changed from that of OEM, and almost certainly in a direction of worse bump steer.
VSUSP doesn't model the tie rod ends, but that problem can be assessed simply by comparing the angularity of the "Tie rod vs lower A-Arm" for the OEM and 1 Ton front ends on actual coaches.
There are cures or mitigation techniques from old hot rod/custom/race car building practices that may or may not be practical or reasonable for our coaches to improve these issues.
I need more information to see. I pretty much know what changes could be made; I just don't have any dimensions to go with the changes.
We are looking forward to getting our own 1 Ton front end, having had a failure of a front end bearing and dealing with the hassles of getting the coach flat bed tractor-trailered home while living in a Dollar Store parking lot for a couple of days; the Dollar folks were very nice though.
The 1 Ton larger bearings and brakes look very good.
Don and Susan Jeffers
1978 Eleganza II
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| Re: Virtual suspension site [message #269059 is a reply to message #268556] |
Tue, 06 January 2015 20:25 |
bwevers
Messages: 597
Registered: October 2010
Location: San Jose
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Don,
My understanding of the One-Ton knuckle:
1) the spindle height is very similar to the OEM knuckle (does not lower coach).
2) the steering arm is about 2 inches higher on the one-ton. (tie rod end is upside down compared to OEM).
3) the One-Ton knuckle UBJ center to LBJ center is almost exactly 2 inches more than the OEM.
4) the One-Ton hub face bottom distance is very similar to the OEM (only the distance to top ball joint has a big difference).
I don't know what offset my Alcoa wheels have.
Regards,
Bill
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
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