| R12 vs R134 in a recovery tank [message #267302] |
Sun, 07 December 2014 17:29  |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
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Is there a test strip or some way to tell if the contents of a recycling tank is R12 or R134?
Scored a Snap On refrigerant recovery system at a swap meet today for cheap. I will be happy if it simply functions as a vaccuum pump. However, the fellow said he had used it int the junkyard to recover R12 from older cars and the tank has quite a bit in it.
My coach is R12 right now and funtioned when I got it a little over a year ago. It still has pressure but is low. I suspect a slow leak at the compressor. I would like to keep it R12. If i have to convert it I will go with duracool.It would be nice if the R12in the tank is usable given the cost. I know about the problems mixing the two [although several friends have done so with no problems for several years I dont want to risk that] so wondering if there was a way to tell what it is with any degree of certainty
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] R12 vs R134 in a recovery tank [message #267314 is a reply to message #267302] |
Sun, 07 December 2014 20:03  |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
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On Dec 7, 2014, at 6:29 PM, Chris Tyler wrote:
> Is there a test strip or some way to tell if the contents of a recycling tank is R12 or R134?
Why not attach a gauge to the tank and measure pressure vs. temperature at various temperatures? Then compare your measurements to the published P/T graphs for common refrigerants? Naturally you'll want to get as many data points as possible so I'd try taking measurements with the tank in several different locations - eg indoors, outdoors, in a deep freeze and perhaps submerged in hot bathwater.
There are also flame tests that will let you identify the presence of chlorine which, if present, would let you rule out the specimen being a modern non-chlorinated refrigerant like R-134A.
--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] R12 vs R134 in a recovery tank [message #267317 is a reply to message #267314] |
Sun, 07 December 2014 22:51 |
Emery Stora
Messages: 959
Registered: January 2011
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You are correct that R134a doesn’t contain chlorine as it is 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane.
R12 does contain chlorine as it is Dichlorodifluoromethane
However note that they both contain fluorine.
Many tests would have a hard time checking for chlorine because of the fluorine
being present.
Emery Stora
> On Dec 7, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
>
> On Dec 7, 2014, at 6:29 PM, Chris Tyler wrote:
>
>> Is there a test strip or some way to tell if the contents of a recycling tank is R12 or R134?
>
> Why not attach a gauge to the tank and measure pressure vs. temperature at various temperatures? Then compare your measurements to the published P/T graphs for common refrigerants? Naturally you'll want to get as many data points as possible so I'd try taking measurements with the tank in several different locations - eg indoors, outdoors, in a deep freeze and perhaps submerged in hot bathwater.
>
> There are also flame tests that will let you identify the presence of chlorine which, if present, would let you rule out the specimen being a modern non-chlorinated refrigerant like R-134A.
>
> --Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
> 1977 Eleganza II
> 1977 Royale
> Hamilton, OH
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] R12 vs R134 in a recovery tank [message #267318 is a reply to message #267317] |
Mon, 08 December 2014 00:14 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Emery Stora wrote on Sun, 07 December 2014 20:51You are correct that R134a doesn't contain chlorine as it is 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane.
R12 does contain chlorine as it is Dichlorodifluoromethane
However note that they both contain fluorine.
Many tests would have a hard time checking for chlorine because of the fluorine
being present.
Emery Stora
> On Dec 7, 2014, at 7:03 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
>
> On Dec 7, 2014, at 6:29 PM, Chris Tyler wrote:
>
>> Is there a test strip or some way to tell if the contents of a recycling tank is R12 or R134?
>
> Why not attach a gauge to the tank and measure pressure vs. temperature at various temperatures? Then compare your measurements to the published P/T graphs for common refrigerants? Naturally you'll want to get as many data points as possible so I'd try taking measurements with the tank in several different locations - eg indoors, outdoors, in a deep freeze and perhaps submerged in hot bathwater.
>
> There are also flame tests that will let you identify the presence of chlorine which, if present, would let you rule out the specimen being a modern non-chlorinated refrigerant like R-134A.
>
> --Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
> 1977 Eleganza II
> 1977 Royale
> Hamilton, OH
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Can't comment on the flame test but even if you could detect the the pressure difference between r12 and 134a at a given temperature how would you know wether someone added a little r22 or r500 to one or more of the cars the refrigerant was removed from. That would cause the pressure temperature to be off by a little or a lot. Back in the day I have used this method to determine if a commercial a/c system was compromised with the wrong refrigerant that someone added to the system when the pressure didn't seem to add up. It is a good thought never the less.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] R12 vs R134 in a recovery tank [message #267322 is a reply to message #267317] |
Mon, 08 December 2014 06:43 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
Karma: 10
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On Dec 7, 2014, at 11:51 PM, Emery Stora wrote:
> You are correct that R134a doesn’t contain chlorine as it is 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane.
> R12 does contain chlorine as it is Dichlorodifluoromethane
> However note that they both contain fluorine.
> Many tests would have a hard time checking for chlorine because of the fluorine being present.
R134A will _not_ produce a characteristic green color change in the flame test since it does not contain chlorine. In fact, the flame test is one of the recommended field tests for detecting CFC contamination in HFC refrigerant systems and it is commonly used to detect chlorine-containing adulterant gases in bulk R134A that arrives from overseas sources.
Irregardless of the wisdom of using junkyard-recovered gas in an A/C system, the original poster was asking about determining whether an unknown sample was R12 or R134A. A flame test in conjunction with a P/T test would go a long way in making that determination in the absence of expensive lab gear.
Some references:
Page 12: http://www.iicl.org/techcorner/bulletins/r134a_testing_procedures_1.pdf
Page 1: http://www.business.govt.nz/worksafe/information-guidance/all-guidance-items/hazard-management-bulletin-counterfeit-refrigerants-in-shipping-container -refrigeration-units/flame-testing
--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: R12 vs R134 in a recovery tank [message #267329 is a reply to message #267302] |
Mon, 08 December 2014 11:31 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Chris Tyler wrote on Sun, 07 December 2014 18:29Is there a test strip or some way to tell if the contents of a recycling tank is R12 or R134?
Scored a Snap On refrigerant recovery system at a swap meet today for cheap. I will be happy if it simply functions as a vaccuum pump. However, the fellow said he had used it int the junkyard to recover R12 from older cars and the tank has quite a bit in it.
My coach is R12 right now and funtioned when I got it a little over a year ago. It still has pressure but is low. I suspect a slow leak at the compressor. I would like to keep it R12. If i have to convert it I will go with duracool.It would be nice if the R12in the tank is usable given the cost. I know about the problems mixing the two [although several friends have done so with no problems for several years I dont want to risk that] so wondering if there was a way to tell what it is with any degree of certainty
Chris,
You have an interesting problem, but at the end of this you may choose a solution....
You cannot not easily detect R-134 contamination of an R-12 cache. The only thing easily tested for is the presence of chlorine. Testing for the lack or proportion thereof requires significantly sophisticated testing.
Were I you, I would use it as is.
The reasons are simple...
When handling R-134, none of the standard access fitting match. Any normal person will have a difficult time locating and acquiring the adapter fitting required to do this without changing the systems access fittings. Once the access fitting are changed then the PO of the recovery system would not have been able to hook up that system to the vehicle. So, there is a very good chance that there is no R-134 in the R-12 tank.
By the by, the standard fitting for HC-12a are the same as R-134.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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