Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Ignition Question
[GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265880] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 17:06 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707 Registered: May 2007 Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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There's been some discussion on Plugs and Plug gap.
I've often wondered if there would be any benefit to adding an MSD 6A
or 6AL (rev limiting) ignition module to my 78 with HEI and 403. If
I'm correct you'd also have to add the MSD matching coil.
Thoughts ???
--
Ray Erspamer
78 Royale - "The Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMCRoyale@gmail.com
414-484-9431
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265883 is a reply to message #265880] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 18:07 |
jimk
Messages: 6734 Registered: July 2006 Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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The main advantage is the fact that the unit will fire twice, first at the
timing mark the second at 20 degrees.
Theory is that when the first does not ignite, the second should ignight.
For some reason,the cap and rotor seem to degrade sooner.
Possibly due to higher output.
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 3:06 PM, Ray Erspamer wrote:
> There's been some discussion on Plugs and Plug gap.
>
> I've often wondered if there would be any benefit to adding an MSD 6A
> or 6AL (rev limiting) ignition module to my 78 with HEI and 403. If
> I'm correct you'd also have to add the MSD matching coil.
>
> Thoughts ???
>
> --
> Ray Erspamer
> 78 Royale - "The Great Lakes Eagle"
> Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
> Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
> Email: 78GMCRoyale@gmail.com
> 414-484-9431
> Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265902 is a reply to message #265880] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 23:09 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632 Registered: February 2011 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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If I could add a little more.
The stock distributor cap center button is a carbon mix which adds resistance to the secondary circuit. The resistor gets hot and burns the cap. An accessory non resistor button is available from MSD to replace the carbon button.
I was under the understanding that the MSD Keeps sparking upto about about 20 degrees, the number of sparks are a function of RPMs.
Here is a description from MSD
http://apps.msdignition.com/1helpmechoose.htm
More specifically :
Quote:
At low RPM the MSD produces a series of sparks during each firing instead of one like a conventional ignition. At low engine speeds when the air/fuel molecules are not finely atomized, the multiple spark feature still ignites the mixture. But this isn't the only feature. The number of sparks produced by the MSD Is reduced as engine rpm increases simply because "time" becomes too short to repeat a spark. However, the spark series always lasts for 20 degrees of crankshaft rotation no matter what the rpm and no matter whether it is a single spark or a series of four or five spark. This 20 degree duration spark sequence insures that the air/fuel mixture is ignited and completely burned. Also each spark the MSD produces is an extremely high current spark. Current is like the heat of the flamethrower. Current is what actually does the work or in this case ignites the fuel mixture. Together, the multiple sparks, the high current and the 20 degree duration, produce an ignition that is superior to any other ignition. More importantly though, the MSD Ignition ignites the fuel mixture in the cylinder instantly and insure complete combustion, no matter what the molecular composition is. The result is reduced variations in burn times and therefore more engine power, better throttle response, easier starting and better fuel economy.
This is one of the reasons why I'm planning on using one of my MSD 6A boxes for the Onan.
Hmmmmm? 1800 RPM (how many sparks?) Good starting and efficient running maybe?
Best Regards.
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265910 is a reply to message #265902] |
Wed, 12 November 2014 06:04 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707 Registered: May 2007 Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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Great input John, Thank you !
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 11:09 PM, John Heslinga wrote:
> If I could add a little more.
> The stock distributor cap center button is a carbon mix which adds resistance to the secondary circuit. The resistor gets hot and burns the cap.
> An accessory non resistor button is available from MSD to replace the carbon button.
>
> I was under the understanding that the MSD Keeps sparking upto about about 20 degrees, the number of sparks are a function of RPMs.
>
> Here is a description from MSD
> http://apps.msdignition.com/1helpmechoose.htm
>
> More specifically :
> Quote:
>> At low RPM the MSD produces a series of sparks during each firing instead of one like a conventional ignition. At low engine speeds when the
>> air/fuel molecules are not finely atomized, the multiple spark feature still ignites the mixture. But this isn't the only feature. The number of
>> sparks produced by the MSD Is reduced as engine rpm increases simply because "time" becomes too short to repeat a spark. However, the spark series
>> always lasts for 20 degrees of crankshaft rotation no matter what the rpm and no matter whether it is a single spark or a series of four or five
>> spark. This 20 degree duration spark sequence insures that the air/fuel mixture is ignited and completely burned. Also each spark the MSD produces
>> is an extremely high current spark. Current is like the heat of the flamethrower. Current is what actually does the work or in this case ignites the
>> fuel mixture. Together, the multiple sparks, the high current and the 20 degree duration, produce an ignition that is superior to any other
>> ignition. More importantly though, the MSD Ignition ignites the fuel mixture in the cylinder instantly and insure complete combustion, no matter
>> what the molecular composition is. The result is reduced variations in burn times and therefore more engine power, better throttle response, easier
>> starting and better fuel economy.
>
>
> This is one of the reasons why I'm planning on using one of my MSD 6A boxes for the Onan.
>
> Hmmmmm? 1800 RPM (how many sparks?) Good starting and efficient running maybe?
>
> Best Regards.
>
> --
> John and Cathie Heslinga
> 1974 Canyonlands 260
> 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:73 LS,
> TC4W "Too Cool For Words"
> Retirement Projects Galore
> Edmonton, Alberta
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
--
Ray Erspamer
78 Royale - "The Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMCRoyale@gmail.com
414-484-9431
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265924 is a reply to message #265905] |
Wed, 12 November 2014 10:43 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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I personally a agree that experimenting with the GMC is not a great idea unless you are willing to what is required to correct the unanticipated failures on the road.
Executive summary: The Kettering (coil and points) with old materials is not up to the task required for reliable service in a GMC. IMNSHO This can be remedied for very reasonable cost without resorting to HEI and the only drawback of the result is that If I ever go to computer controlled timing, the system will have be unable to adapt.
Our coach is a '73 with points and a carburetor and the engine has been out at lease once in its history.
Working from lessons learned elsewhere.....
Early on, I installed a Pertronix to replace the points. I have run Kettering and magneto engines for lots of years and was very aware that points can be effective only if maintained with very regular and scrupulous attention.
I had a car that was great fun, but it required attention to the ignition system about every 2000 miles or it would complain. My answer to this was a primitive CDI. This allowed me to get to 3K on a set of plugs and then they could be regapped and returned to service. The points were now unloaded and so they stayed in spec for as much a 10k miles. (That was fewer miles than we put on the coach this year.) The plugs were lead fouled by then an so unrecoverable.
Even with the Pertronix in the coach, I could still feel irregular misfires in the coach at high road loads. The Pertronix had little effect on this. New plugs, cap, rotor and wires (stock) was an improvement but still not a complete fix. So I procured an brand new in the box state of the art MSD-6A. That was close, but the wires couldn't take the shock. From lab work I knew that the HEI wires were very good. So, I went looking for better than stock Delco-Parkard. With new Gonso wires, I could no longer feel the misfires.
There is an old engineering joke that if it is working reliably, you haven't finished optimizing it. I started opening up the plug gap. About the time I got to 0.060, I had other things to attend to and stopped that effort.
Then, in front of a friends house in Elkhart, the coach would not start. No Spark. Worked the diagnostic tree to the foot of the MSD box. With that by-passed, we had spark. So, I pulled and hammered the plugs back to normal range and we came home. The MSD box was one month out of warranty and they offered to exchange it for 85$. But, I found an old friend on E-bay. the same antique CDI that I had 70k+mi and 5 years experience with way back when. That was what it needed. But it was a ~40yo box and some time later C1 (1.5@600) died. (That is just for the E-types reading.) It gave lots of warning. By then I had collected a second generation of the same unit. That has been faithful for four years and about 30k miles. I think I will put new plugs in the winter just on GP.
With all of this, I could document a fuel rate change of about an half an MPG when I could no longer feel the mis-fires. That much could cover the cost of improvements, but not much more.
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265925 is a reply to message #265880] |
Wed, 12 November 2014 11:09 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447 Registered: October 2006 Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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I have a stock 77 HEI with 8mm magcore wires and never get any hint of misfire. I think the stock HEI in good nick is more than adequate even during worst case cylinder pressure/ mixture scenarios. And I don't have EFI. Less add ons is less to fail at a bad time. The only good time for a failure is in your climate controled garage with all your tools right there and no trip planned.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265927 is a reply to message #265925] |
Wed, 12 November 2014 11:56 |
roy1
Messages: 2126 Registered: July 2004 Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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JohnL455 wrote on Wed, 12 November 2014 09:09I have a stock 77 HEI with 8mm magcore wires and never get any hint of misfire. I think the stock HEI in good nick is more than adequate even during worst case cylinder pressure/ mixture scenarios. And I don't have EFI. Less add ons is less to fail at a bad time. The only good time for a failure is in your climate controled garage with all your tools right there and no trip planned.
John
That is the way I feel about it too. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265929 is a reply to message #265880] |
Wed, 12 November 2014 12:58 |
Cadillackeeper
Messages: 464 Registered: October 2012 Location: Fort Lauderdale
Karma: 1
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The Kettering (coil and points) with old materials is not up to the task required for reliable service in a GMC. IMNSHO This can be remedied for very reasonable cost without resorting to HEI and the only drawback of the result is that If I ever go to computer controlled timing, the system will have be unable to adapt.
Coil and points just came out of my Eldorado for Pertronix.HEI in the coach.
Points worked in everything for 100 years.Yes every 2-3000 miles 1/4 turn for wear.
Never can be on the side of the road with them.I would just swipe with sandpaper,pour some gas in the carb and drive.I keep a point distro still in the Eldo trunk just incase Electronics fail.On the coach I have a Cap and module spare.I am interested in this solid
contactor cap.I do not want to EVER have trouble.I have been in the Eldo since 79 so....
77 455 Elaganza II and 67 Animal, Built 500 Powered Eldo
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265944 is a reply to message #265880] |
Wed, 12 November 2014 19:24 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632 Registered: February 2011 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Hey Matt:
Quote:
But, I found an old friend on E-bay. the same antique CDI that I had 70k+mi and 5 years experience with way back when. That was what it needed. But it was a ~40yo box and some time later C1 (1.5@600) died. (That is just for the E-types reading.)
My guess would be a "Delta mark 10 CDI)
I had one on my 63 Pontiac Parisienne. It had a 327 4 barrel and I usually had my foot in it (I was a lot younger then) seldom fouled a plug after I installed the Mark 10 loved it. (I built it from a kit!!)
Best Regards
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265951 is a reply to message #265944] |
Wed, 12 November 2014 20:51 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260 Registered: January 2004 Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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""I had one on my 63 Pontiac Parisienne. It had a 327 4 barrel and I usually had my foot in it (I was a lot younger then) seldom fouled a plug after I installed the Mark 10 loved it. (I built it from a kit!!)
Best Regards ""
Ah-- the narrow track Canadian Pontiacs
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265956 is a reply to message #265952] |
Wed, 12 November 2014 22:24 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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I still have two of those NOS in my garage. I also think I also have used one around somewhere. I used to sell those in the early 70's.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #265957 is a reply to message #265880] |
Wed, 12 November 2014 22:26 |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632 Registered: February 2011 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Quote:
Ah-- the narrow track Canadian Pontiacs
"Yah eh"
Chevy in Pontiac clothes. Hense the 327 chev drive line. We had very few Pontiac motors here.
Quote:
The newer one is a Mark 10B.
Was that the one with the switch to convert back to standard ignition? Was it also the precursor to Multiple spark?? (Only a faint recall this many years and systems later)
It would have been a problem for us, because we narrowed the point gap to decrease the point rubbing block wear. (That was about the only wear on the points using CDI) BUT That would have made the dwell angle too large in regular ignition mode.
For those if you who want to know: (I know some of you already do) CD Ignitions don't need dwell. They hit the coil with about 300 Volts and the coils work like a transformer increasing the voltage to the plugs on the increasing magnetic field. The coils do not get hot because they do not need to "saturate" to maximum magnetic field.
Regular ignition systems "Collapse" the magnetic field to increase voltage to the plugs. The soak time is current flowing throught the coil and heating it up. CDI ignitions have cooler coils and do not need current limiting resistors.
Other transistor ignitions such as HEI, Pertronix discussed mostly here, (pertonics has a CDI Model However), and most Factory electronic ignition systems, simply replace the job of the points with transistors. They Collapse the magnetic field. Computer controlled but still simple spark generation.
Still very few vehicles today use CDI.
Best Regards
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
[Updated on: Wed, 12 November 2014 23:14] Report message to a moderator
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #266100 is a reply to message #265880] |
Fri, 14 November 2014 22:39 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458 Registered: September 2013 Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
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I have run MSD units for many years on different vehicles and motorcycles.
There is an improvent to be had with the multiple spark, especially under lean conditions and cold start.
The AL box w rev limiter is probably not needed for our application. I have an extra 6AL that I will be using, mounting it behind the driver seat for access and heat sheilding
The setup with the HEI uses the stock pickup but not the module. it is possible to leave the module in place if you should ever need to revert to it on the side of the road. They dont fail often, but if they do, you are dead in the water
You can actually run a stock good quality coil with it in a low RPM setup, or upgrade to aftermarket. As previously mentioned, the rotor button is a good idea.
76 Glenbrook
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #266123 is a reply to message #265880] |
Sat, 15 November 2014 13:02 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Well, my toad got harder to start till it won't start. It's fitted with a Summit hi energy system, which is an HEI just like my coach excepting the cap is blue instead of gray. Anyway, I had the Advance place test the module, works fine. Took the cap ass'y and stuffed it in the coach, fires right up. So, I just picked up eight new sparking plugs to replace the crudded up ones in the toad. Hopefully it will run now. Toad PO had put a set of very cold dragstrip Densos in it, you can't see the electrodes for the carbon. If this don't work, I guess a new pickup coil is in order although the one in it measures the same as the one in my coach, leading me to believe it is working.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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Re: [GMCnet] Ignition Question [message #266142 is a reply to message #266123] |
Sat, 15 November 2014 18:21 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Johnny Bridges wrote on Sat, 15 November 2014 14:02Well, my toad got harder to start till it won't start. It's fitted with a Summit hi energy system, which is an HEI just like my coach excepting the cap is blue instead of gray. Anyway, I had the Advance place test the module, works fine. Took the cap ass'y and stuffed it in the coach, fires right up. So, I just picked up eight new sparking plugs to replace the crudded up ones in the toad. Hopefully it will run now. Toad PO had put a set of very cold dragstrip Densos in it, you can't see the electrodes for the carbon. If this don't work, I guess a new pickup coil is in order although the one in it measures the same as the one in my coach, leading me to believe it is working.
--johnny
Johnny,
Don't skip the ignition coil in your thinking.
I had never seen one fail in all the years I have been wrenching, but in the last two years, I have seen or heard of five.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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