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Spark plugs advice please. [message #265821] Mon, 10 November 2014 20:25 Go to next message
Jarrar is currently offline  Jarrar   United States
Messages: 41
Registered: July 2014
Location: Santa Cruz, California.
Karma: 0
Member
Hi,

Ok, so I pulled off one of the spark plugs today off my 77 transmode. It looked in decent shape, I cleaned it. The gap was huge...not sure how large since I didn't have a large enough gauge to measure it with.

Bought the RV back in July and not sure when the plugs were replaced but I did notice the acceleration (when I drove the RV home) was bad.

Is the bad acceleration caused by the large spark plug gaps ?

Should I re gap the plugs to .040 ?

And would replacing the plugs improve the gas mileage by any noticeable amount ?

Should I stick with the AC Delco plugs or are the plugs made by Bosch, NGK, Autolite, Or Nipendenso a better choice (performance and gas mileage wise) ?

Thank you for the help.
AJ
Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265822 is a reply to message #265821] Mon, 10 November 2014 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob de Kruyff   United States
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
Senior Member
Jarrar wrote on Mon, 10 November 2014 19:25
Hi,

Ok, so I pulled off one of the spark plugs today off my 77 transmode. It looked in decent shape, I cleaned it. The gap was huge...not sure how large since I didn't have a large enough gauge to measure it with.

Bought the RV back in July and not sure when the plugs were replaced but I did notice the acceleration (when I drove the RV home) was bad.

Is the bad acceleration caused by the large spark plug gaps ?

Should I re gap the plugs to .040 ?

And would replacing the plugs improve the gas mileage by any noticeable amount ?

Should I stick with the AC Delco plugs or are the plugs made by Bosch, NGK, Autolite, Or Nipendenso a better choice (performance and gas mileage wise) ?

Thank you for the help.
AJ

The wisdom these days is that .040 is a good gap. Personally i think any brand name plug is fine as long as you get the right heat range. Given all that, I have replaced some terrible plugs and still have noted no performance difference.


Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. [message #265824 is a reply to message #265822] Mon, 10 November 2014 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Len Novak is currently offline  Len Novak   United States
Messages: 676
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Karma: -3
Senior Member
I replaced Delco with Delco. The old plugs had huge gaps, were warn and
dirty. Coach still passed SMOG. With the new plugs.............nothing
changed.

Len and Pat
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Fallbrook, CA new email: B52Rule@Roadrunner.Com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375

www.bdub.net/novak/




-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bob de
Kruyff
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 6:32 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please.

Jarrar wrote on Mon, 10 November 2014 19:25
> Hi,
>
> Ok, so I pulled off one of the spark plugs today off my 77 transmode.
> It looked in decent shape, I cleaned it. The gap was huge...not sure how
large since I didn't have a large enough gauge to measure it with.
>
> Bought the RV back in July and not sure when the plugs were replaced but I
did notice the acceleration (when I drove the RV home) was bad.
>
> Is the bad acceleration caused by the large spark plug gaps ?
>
> Should I re gap the plugs to .040 ?
>
> And would replacing the plugs improve the gas mileage by any noticeable
amount ?
>
> Should I stick with the AC Delco plugs or are the plugs made by Bosch,
> NGK, Autolite, Or Nipendenso a better choice (performance and gas
> mileage
> wise) ?
>
> Thank you for the help.
> AJ

The wisdom these days is that .040 is a good gap. Personally i think any
brand name plug is fine as long as you get the right heat range. Given all
that, I have replaced some terrible plugs and still have noted no
performance difference.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Len and Pat Novak 1978 GMC Kingsley The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see! Las Vegas, NV new email: B52sRule@Gmail.com http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375 www.bdub.net/novak/
Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265828 is a reply to message #265821] Mon, 10 November 2014 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrgmc3 is currently offline  mrgmc3   United States
Messages: 210
Registered: September 2013
Location: W Washington
Karma: 2
Senior Member
A '77 would have HEI, so larger gaps are generally accepted. Higher coil energy will jump a larger gap. Large gaps and high ignition energy tend to provide stronger more consistant flame initiation. The original gap of R46SX was .060 and of the R46SZ was .080". I run my HEI plugs at .060 and have acceptable performance.
When you say the "acceleration is bad" it is not clear what you mean. A little clarity such as its sluggish, hesitated on tip-in etc would be helpful. These things run 0-60 in something like 16-18 seconds so they are not hot rods. If the performance is really poor it could be caused by any number of things including ignition.
As far as brands go "AC" stopped making plugs 10 or so years ago. Current "ACDelco" plugs are supplied by NGK, I believe. I'd recommend them or Bosch or Autolite. High dollar iridium or multi electrode are a waste of money in my opinion.


Chris Geils - Twin Cities / W Wa 1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; PD9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, Alcoas, 54k mi
Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. [message #265830 is a reply to message #265824] Mon, 10 November 2014 22:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
powerjon is currently offline  powerjon   United States
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
Senior Member
Here is a chart for the selection of spark plugs for the 455, 403 and gen sets along with gap set point for our GMC.

http://www.gmcgreatlakers.org/gmcing/tech_docs_gl/SparkPlugApplicationGuide.pdf

JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion
Michigan

> On Nov 10, 2014, at 9:36 PM, Len Novak wrote:
>
> I replaced Delco with Delco. The old plugs had huge gaps, were warn and
> dirty. Coach still passed SMOG. With the new plugs.............nothing
> changed.
>
> Len and Pat
> 1978 GMC Kingsley
> The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
> Fallbrook, CA new email: B52Rule@Roadrunner.Com
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
>
> www.bdub.net/novak/
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bob de
> Kruyff
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 6:32 PM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please.
>
> Jarrar wrote on Mon, 10 November 2014 19:25
>> Hi,
>>
>> Ok, so I pulled off one of the spark plugs today off my 77 transmode.
>> It looked in decent shape, I cleaned it. The gap was huge...not sure how
> large since I didn't have a large enough gauge to measure it with.
>>
>> Bought the RV back in July and not sure when the plugs were replaced but I
> did notice the acceleration (when I drove the RV home) was bad.
>>
>> Is the bad acceleration caused by the large spark plug gaps ?
>>
>> Should I re gap the plugs to .040 ?
>>
>> And would replacing the plugs improve the gas mileage by any noticeable
> amount ?
>>
>> Should I stick with the AC Delco plugs or are the plugs made by Bosch,
>> NGK, Autolite, Or Nipendenso a better choice (performance and gas
>> mileage
>> wise) ?
>>
>> Thank you for the help.
>> AJ
>
> The wisdom these days is that .040 is a good gap. Personally i think any
> brand name plug is fine as long as you get the right heat range. Given all
> that, I have replaced some terrible plugs and still have noted no
> performance difference.
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265832 is a reply to message #265828] Mon, 10 November 2014 23:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jarrar is currently offline  Jarrar   United States
Messages: 41
Registered: July 2014
Location: Santa Cruz, California.
Karma: 0
Member
mrgmc3 wrote on Mon, 10 November 2014 20:26
A '77 would have HEI, so larger gaps are generally accepted. Higher coil energy will jump a larger gap. Large gaps and high ignition energy tend to provide stronger more consistant flame initiation. The original gap of R46SX was .060 and of the R46SZ was .080". I run my HEI plugs at .060 and have acceptable performance.
When you say the "acceleration is bad" it is not clear what you mean. A little clarity such as its sluggish, hesitated on tip-in etc would be helpful. These things run 0-60 in something like 16-18 seconds so they are not hot rods. If the performance is really poor it could be caused by any number of things including ignition.
As far as brands go "AC" stopped making plugs 10 or so years ago. Current "ACDelco" plugs are supplied by NGK, I believe. I'd recommend them or Bosch or Autolite. High dollar iridium or multi electrode are a waste of money in my opinion.



Thanks for the info but now I am more confused: People here say gap it at .040 but you are saying to gap it at .080 ??

The plugs on it are the SZ ones. I am thinking I am just going to clean and re use them.

Would there be a difference btwn the gap at .040 and .080 as far as how it runs and mileage ?

Thanks.
Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265837 is a reply to message #265832] Tue, 11 November 2014 03:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
Senior Member
If you would like to replace the HEI coil and module at some future date while on the side of the road then run at .080". Otherwise run the plugs at .038 to .040. It took me going through 2 ignition modules and one coil to learn that lesson.

Dick Paterson ran our engine through several different dyno runs and found that .038 ran the same as .080". Also at .038" all of the ignition parts are stressed less and are more reliable.

There are plugs available today that were not made 40 years ago. Dick recommended AC Delco #7 platinum plugs gapped at .038 for years. (they were really made by NKG.) A few years back AC Delco switched suppliers so now the recommended plug is the same plug under the NKG label.

That NGK plug is XR5IX gapped at .038" out of the box.


If you plan to reuse the old plugs, sandblast (clean) them and gap to .038 - .040


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265839 is a reply to message #265837] Tue, 11 November 2014 07:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tphipps is currently offline  tphipps   United States
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
Senior Member
Go with Ken's suggestion. This is the plug and gap recommended by Dick Patterson, one of the GMC treasures. I changed to these plugs, Dick's wires, and his carb and his coil/distributed. A very measurable improvement in both performance and mileage. Still do not expect mileage to exceed the range of 8-10 mpg.
Tom, MS II


2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552 KA4CSG
Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265846 is a reply to message #265839] Tue, 11 November 2014 09:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Otterwan   United States
Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Use the E3's. Never have to worry about the gap. I've been using them for years.

1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."
Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. [message #265848 is a reply to message #265846] Tue, 11 November 2014 09:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray Erspamer is currently offline  Ray Erspamer   United States
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
Senior Member
What number E3's would be best in the GMC 403 engine??

On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 9:20 AM, David Orders wrote:
> Use the E3's. Never have to worry about the gap. I've been using them for years.
> --
> 1976 Royale "Twinkie II" Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to
> us."
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Ray Erspamer
78 Royale - "The Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMCRoyale@gmail.com
414-484-9431
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
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Ray Erspamer 78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen 403, 3.70 Final Drive Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System, Holley Hyperspark Ignition System 414-484-9431
Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. [message #265849 is a reply to message #265848] Tue, 11 November 2014 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray Erspamer is currently offline  Ray Erspamer   United States
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
Senior Member
For the 403 would it be the E3.40 or E3.46 ???

I'm currently using AC 41.818's

E3 has a cross reference for a 41.817 which is the E3.40 and the
41.819 which is the E3.46.

On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Ray Erspamer wrote:
> What number E3's would be best in the GMC 403 engine??
>
> On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 9:20 AM, David Orders wrote:
>> Use the E3's. Never have to worry about the gap. I've been using them for years.
>> --
>> 1976 Royale "Twinkie II" Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to
>> us."
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
>
> --
> Ray Erspamer
> 78 Royale - "The Great Lakes Eagle"
> Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
> Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
> Email: 78GMCRoyale@gmail.com
> 414-484-9431
> Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/



--
Ray Erspamer
78 Royale - "The Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMCRoyale@gmail.com
414-484-9431
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
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Ray Erspamer 78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen 403, 3.70 Final Drive Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System, Holley Hyperspark Ignition System 414-484-9431
Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. [message #265850 is a reply to message #265849] Tue, 11 November 2014 10:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Otterwan   United States
Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...
Karma: 0
Senior Member
I'm running the E3.52 in my 455. I got the number from the list posted earlier in this thread. Same plug recommended for the 403. They've been great. Amazon has them at a good price:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CGSHHU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1


1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."

[Updated on: Tue, 11 November 2014 10:23]

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Re: Spark plugs advice please. About Gap . . . [message #265874 is a reply to message #265832] Tue, 11 November 2014 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
Senior Member
Jarrar wrote on Tue, 11 November 2014 00:26
mrgmc3 wrote on Mon, 10 November 2014 20:26
A '77 would have HEI, so larger gaps are generally accepted. Higher coil energy will jump a larger gap. Large gaps and high ignition energy tend to provide stronger more consistant flame initiation. The original gap of R46SX was .060 and of the R46SZ was .080". I run my HEI plugs at .060 and have acceptable performance.
When you say the "acceleration is bad" it is not clear what you mean. A little clarity such as its sluggish, hesitated on tip-in etc would be helpful. These things run 0-60 in something like 16-18 seconds so they are not hot rods. If the performance is really poor it could be caused by any number of things including ignition.
As far as brands go "AC" stopped making plugs 10 or so years ago. Current "ACDelco" plugs are supplied by NGK, I believe. I'd recommend them or Bosch or Autolite. High dollar iridium or multi electrode are a waste of money in my opinion.



Thanks for the info but now I am more confused: People here say gap it at .040 but you are saying to gap it at .080 ??

The plugs on it are the SZ ones. I am thinking I am just going to clean and re use them.

Would there be a difference btwn the gap at .040 and .080 as far as how it runs and mileage ?

Thanks.

OK....

The original gap for plugs used with the HEI systems was 0.080. Shortly after this was introduced it was discovered that the system really could not accommodate that and stay alive. Some GM changed the recommendation.
Facts:
Wider gap takes more initial voltage to fire.
Higher cylinder charge pressure* takes more voltage to fire.
(* Within the range of passcar cylinder pressures during normal operation.)

Why did GM want to fire plugs with a wider gap?
Because studies done in the late 60s~ early 70s showed lower HC emissions due to reduced misfire.
So, Will a wider gap help fuel economy? Maybe...
But, only if you never increase the cylinder charge pressure to the point that you start create misfire conditions because the juice won't jump the gap. (As long as you can reliably start the fire. Like, Never open the secondaries. - SWAGuess -)

Your HEI will survive much better with a plug gap at 0.036~0.040. Don't try wider than that unless you plan to carry lots of spare ignition parts. (Says the guy that is running 0.060 probably out to 0.070 by now, but I do not have HEI. I have a Pertronix triggered real CDI (c.1973) and 8.8mm wires. This is not recommended practice for those uninitiated as messing with the secondary when it is running can prove to be very painful. ¡¡It will come to get you!!)


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. About Gap . . . [message #265879 is a reply to message #265874] Tue, 11 November 2014 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray Erspamer is currently offline  Ray Erspamer   United States
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
Senior Member
I've been running AC Platinums, AC41-818 at .060 gap. I was
wondering what E3 plugs would be best in the 403.

On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Matt Colie wrote:
> Jarrar wrote on Tue, 11 November 2014 00:26
>> mrgmc3 wrote on Mon, 10 November 2014 20:26
>>> A '77 would have HEI, so larger gaps are generally accepted. Higher coil energy will jump a larger gap. Large gaps and high ignition energy
>>> tend to provide stronger more consistant flame initiation. The original gap of R46SX was .060 and of the R46SZ was .080". I run my HEI plugs at
>>> .060 and have acceptable performance.
>>> When you say the "acceleration is bad" it is not clear what you mean. A little clarity such as its sluggish, hesitated on tip-in etc would be
>>> helpful. These things run 0-60 in something like 16-18 seconds so they are not hot rods. If the performance is really poor it could be caused by
>>> any number of things including ignition.
>>> As far as brands go "AC" stopped making plugs 10 or so years ago. Current "ACDelco" plugs are supplied by NGK, I believe. I'd recommend them
>>> or Bosch or Autolite. High dollar iridium or multi electrode are a waste of money in my opinion.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the info but now I am more confused: People here say gap it at .040 but you are saying to gap it at .080 ??
>>
>> The plugs on it are the SZ ones. I am thinking I am just going to clean and re use them.
>>
>> Would there be a difference btwn the gap at .040 and .080 as far as how it runs and mileage ?
>>
>> Thanks.
>
> OK....
>
> The original gap for plugs used with the HEI systems was 0.080. Shortly after this was introduced it was discovered that the system really could not
> accommodate that and stay alive. Some GM changed the recommendation.
> Facts:
> Wider gap takes more initial voltage to fire.
> Higher cylinder charge pressure* takes more voltage to fire.
> (* Within the range of passcar cylinder pressures during normal operation.)
>
> Why did GM want to fire plugs with a wider gap?
> Because studies done in the late 60s~ early 70s showed lower HC emissions due to reduced misfire.
> So, Will a wider gap help fuel economy? Maybe...
> But, only if you never increase the cylinder charge pressure to the point that you start create misfire conditions because the juice won't jump the
> gap. (As long as you can reliably start the fire. Like, Never open the secondaries. - SWAGuess -)
>
> Your HEI will survive much better with a plug gap at 0.036~0.040. Don't try wider than that unless you plan to carry lots of spare ignition parts.
> (Says the guy that is running 0.060 probably out to 0.070 by now, but I do not have HEI. I have a Pertronix triggered real CDI (c.1973) and 8.8mm
> wires. This is not recommended practice for those uninitiated as messing with the secondary when it is running can prove to be very painful. ¡¡It
> will come to get you!!)
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
> '73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist



--
Ray Erspamer
78 Royale - "The Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMCRoyale@gmail.com
414-484-9431
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
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Ray Erspamer 78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen 403, 3.70 Final Drive Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System, Holley Hyperspark Ignition System 414-484-9431
Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. [message #265888 is a reply to message #265850] Tue, 11 November 2014 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kingsley Coach is currently offline  Kingsley Coach   United States
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Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
Senior Member
403 is the same as the 455 for E3's
Mike in NS

On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 12:21 PM, David Orders wrote:

> I'm running the E3.52 in my 455. I got the number somewhere on here.
> They've been great. I'm sure someone has the 403 plug number handy.
> --
> 1976 Royale "Twinkie II" Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all
> evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up
> to
> us."
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>



--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS

I am not an alcoholic; alcoholics go to meetings.
I am a drunk; I go to parties !
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Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265891 is a reply to message #265821] Tue, 11 November 2014 20:36 Go to previous message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
Senior Member
Matt summed it up perfectly. My friend was a mech at a Pontiac dealer in 75. First cold snap the TAs and GPs were lined up in the lot brought in on the hook. At 080 once flooded it was a no start. GM came out with a TSB on the reduced gàp. 040 worked great.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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