Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Spark plugs advice please.
Spark plugs advice please. [message #265821] |
Mon, 10 November 2014 20:25 |
Jarrar
Messages: 41 Registered: July 2014 Location: Santa Cruz, California.
Karma: 0
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Hi,
Ok, so I pulled off one of the spark plugs today off my 77 transmode. It looked in decent shape, I cleaned it. The gap was huge...not sure how large since I didn't have a large enough gauge to measure it with.
Bought the RV back in July and not sure when the plugs were replaced but I did notice the acceleration (when I drove the RV home) was bad.
Is the bad acceleration caused by the large spark plug gaps ?
Should I re gap the plugs to .040 ?
And would replacing the plugs improve the gas mileage by any noticeable amount ?
Should I stick with the AC Delco plugs or are the plugs made by Bosch, NGK, Autolite, Or Nipendenso a better choice (performance and gas mileage wise) ?
Thank you for the help.
AJ
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Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265822 is a reply to message #265821] |
Mon, 10 November 2014 20:31 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260 Registered: January 2004 Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Jarrar wrote on Mon, 10 November 2014 19:25Hi,
Ok, so I pulled off one of the spark plugs today off my 77 transmode. It looked in decent shape, I cleaned it. The gap was huge...not sure how large since I didn't have a large enough gauge to measure it with.
Bought the RV back in July and not sure when the plugs were replaced but I did notice the acceleration (when I drove the RV home) was bad.
Is the bad acceleration caused by the large spark plug gaps ?
Should I re gap the plugs to .040 ?
And would replacing the plugs improve the gas mileage by any noticeable amount ?
Should I stick with the AC Delco plugs or are the plugs made by Bosch, NGK, Autolite, Or Nipendenso a better choice (performance and gas mileage wise) ?
Thank you for the help.
AJ
The wisdom these days is that .040 is a good gap. Personally i think any brand name plug is fine as long as you get the right heat range. Given all that, I have replaced some terrible plugs and still have noted no performance difference.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. [message #265824 is a reply to message #265822] |
Mon, 10 November 2014 20:36 |
Len Novak
Messages: 676 Registered: February 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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I replaced Delco with Delco. The old plugs had huge gaps, were warn and
dirty. Coach still passed SMOG. With the new plugs.............nothing
changed.
Len and Pat
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Fallbrook, CA new email: B52Rule@Roadrunner.Com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bob de
Kruyff
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 6:32 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please.
Jarrar wrote on Mon, 10 November 2014 19:25
> Hi,
>
> Ok, so I pulled off one of the spark plugs today off my 77 transmode.
> It looked in decent shape, I cleaned it. The gap was huge...not sure how
large since I didn't have a large enough gauge to measure it with.
>
> Bought the RV back in July and not sure when the plugs were replaced but I
did notice the acceleration (when I drove the RV home) was bad.
>
> Is the bad acceleration caused by the large spark plug gaps ?
>
> Should I re gap the plugs to .040 ?
>
> And would replacing the plugs improve the gas mileage by any noticeable
amount ?
>
> Should I stick with the AC Delco plugs or are the plugs made by Bosch,
> NGK, Autolite, Or Nipendenso a better choice (performance and gas
> mileage
> wise) ?
>
> Thank you for the help.
> AJ
The wisdom these days is that .040 is a good gap. Personally i think any
brand name plug is fine as long as you get the right heat range. Given all
that, I have replaced some terrible plugs and still have noted no
performance difference.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Len and Pat Novak
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Las Vegas, NV new email: B52sRule@Gmail.com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
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Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265828 is a reply to message #265821] |
Mon, 10 November 2014 22:26 |
mrgmc3
Messages: 210 Registered: September 2013 Location: W Washington
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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A '77 would have HEI, so larger gaps are generally accepted. Higher coil energy will jump a larger gap. Large gaps and high ignition energy tend to provide stronger more consistant flame initiation. The original gap of R46SX was .060 and of the R46SZ was .080". I run my HEI plugs at .060 and have acceptable performance.
When you say the "acceleration is bad" it is not clear what you mean. A little clarity such as its sluggish, hesitated on tip-in etc would be helpful. These things run 0-60 in something like 16-18 seconds so they are not hot rods. If the performance is really poor it could be caused by any number of things including ignition.
As far as brands go "AC" stopped making plugs 10 or so years ago. Current "ACDelco" plugs are supplied by NGK, I believe. I'd recommend them or Bosch or Autolite. High dollar iridium or multi electrode are a waste of money in my opinion.
Chris Geils - Twin Cities / W Wa
1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; PD9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, Alcoas, 54k mi
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Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. [message #265830 is a reply to message #265824] |
Mon, 10 November 2014 22:32 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446 Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Here is a chart for the selection of spark plugs for the 455, 403 and gen sets along with gap set point for our GMC.
http://www.gmcgreatlakers.org/gmcing/tech_docs_gl/SparkPlugApplicationGuide.pdf
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion
Michigan
> On Nov 10, 2014, at 9:36 PM, Len Novak wrote:
>
> I replaced Delco with Delco. The old plugs had huge gaps, were warn and
> dirty. Coach still passed SMOG. With the new plugs.............nothing
> changed.
>
> Len and Pat
> 1978 GMC Kingsley
> The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
> Fallbrook, CA new email: B52Rule@Roadrunner.Com
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
>
> www.bdub.net/novak/
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bob de
> Kruyff
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 6:32 PM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please.
>
> Jarrar wrote on Mon, 10 November 2014 19:25
>> Hi,
>>
>> Ok, so I pulled off one of the spark plugs today off my 77 transmode.
>> It looked in decent shape, I cleaned it. The gap was huge...not sure how
> large since I didn't have a large enough gauge to measure it with.
>>
>> Bought the RV back in July and not sure when the plugs were replaced but I
> did notice the acceleration (when I drove the RV home) was bad.
>>
>> Is the bad acceleration caused by the large spark plug gaps ?
>>
>> Should I re gap the plugs to .040 ?
>>
>> And would replacing the plugs improve the gas mileage by any noticeable
> amount ?
>>
>> Should I stick with the AC Delco plugs or are the plugs made by Bosch,
>> NGK, Autolite, Or Nipendenso a better choice (performance and gas
>> mileage
>> wise) ?
>>
>> Thank you for the help.
>> AJ
>
> The wisdom these days is that .040 is a good gap. Personally i think any
> brand name plug is fine as long as you get the right heat range. Given all
> that, I have replaced some terrible plugs and still have noted no
> performance difference.
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265837 is a reply to message #265832] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 03:30 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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If you would like to replace the HEI coil and module at some future date while on the side of the road then run at .080". Otherwise run the plugs at .038 to .040. It took me going through 2 ignition modules and one coil to learn that lesson.
Dick Paterson ran our engine through several different dyno runs and found that .038 ran the same as .080". Also at .038" all of the ignition parts are stressed less and are more reliable.
There are plugs available today that were not made 40 years ago. Dick recommended AC Delco #7 platinum plugs gapped at .038 for years. (they were really made by NKG.) A few years back AC Delco switched suppliers so now the recommended plug is the same plug under the NKG label.
That NGK plug is XR5IX gapped at .038" out of the box.
If you plan to reuse the old plugs, sandblast (clean) them and gap to .038 - .040
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265839 is a reply to message #265837] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 07:01 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005 Registered: August 2004 Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Go with Ken's suggestion. This is the plug and gap recommended by Dick Patterson, one of the GMC treasures. I changed to these plugs, Dick's wires, and his carb and his coil/distributed. A very measurable improvement in both performance and mileage. Still do not expect mileage to exceed the range of 8-10 mpg.
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265846 is a reply to message #265839] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 09:20 |
Otterwan
Messages: 946 Registered: July 2013 Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Use the E3's. Never have to worry about the gap. I've been using them for years.
1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."
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Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. [message #265848 is a reply to message #265846] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 09:36 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707 Registered: May 2007 Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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What number E3's would be best in the GMC 403 engine??
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 9:20 AM, David Orders wrote:
> Use the E3's. Never have to worry about the gap. I've been using them for years.
> --
> 1976 Royale "Twinkie II" Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to
> us."
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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--
Ray Erspamer
78 Royale - "The Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMCRoyale@gmail.com
414-484-9431
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. [message #265849 is a reply to message #265848] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 09:57 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707 Registered: May 2007 Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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For the 403 would it be the E3.40 or E3.46 ???
I'm currently using AC 41.818's
E3 has a cross reference for a 41.817 which is the E3.40 and the
41.819 which is the E3.46.
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Ray Erspamer wrote:
> What number E3's would be best in the GMC 403 engine??
>
> On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 9:20 AM, David Orders wrote:
>> Use the E3's. Never have to worry about the gap. I've been using them for years.
>> --
>> 1976 Royale "Twinkie II" Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to
>> us."
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
>
> --
> Ray Erspamer
> 78 Royale - "The Great Lakes Eagle"
> Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
> Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
> Email: 78GMCRoyale@gmail.com
> 414-484-9431
> Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
--
Ray Erspamer
78 Royale - "The Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMCRoyale@gmail.com
414-484-9431
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
_______________________________________________
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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Re: Spark plugs advice please. About Gap . . . [message #265874 is a reply to message #265832] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 16:21 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Jarrar wrote on Tue, 11 November 2014 00:26mrgmc3 wrote on Mon, 10 November 2014 20:26A '77 would have HEI, so larger gaps are generally accepted. Higher coil energy will jump a larger gap. Large gaps and high ignition energy tend to provide stronger more consistant flame initiation. The original gap of R46SX was .060 and of the R46SZ was .080". I run my HEI plugs at .060 and have acceptable performance.
When you say the "acceleration is bad" it is not clear what you mean. A little clarity such as its sluggish, hesitated on tip-in etc would be helpful. These things run 0-60 in something like 16-18 seconds so they are not hot rods. If the performance is really poor it could be caused by any number of things including ignition.
As far as brands go "AC" stopped making plugs 10 or so years ago. Current "ACDelco" plugs are supplied by NGK, I believe. I'd recommend them or Bosch or Autolite. High dollar iridium or multi electrode are a waste of money in my opinion.
Thanks for the info but now I am more confused: People here say gap it at .040 but you are saying to gap it at .080 ??
The plugs on it are the SZ ones. I am thinking I am just going to clean and re use them.
Would there be a difference btwn the gap at .040 and .080 as far as how it runs and mileage ?
Thanks.
OK....
The original gap for plugs used with the HEI systems was 0.080. Shortly after this was introduced it was discovered that the system really could not accommodate that and stay alive. Some GM changed the recommendation.
Facts:
Wider gap takes more initial voltage to fire.
Higher cylinder charge pressure* takes more voltage to fire.
(* Within the range of passcar cylinder pressures during normal operation.)
Why did GM want to fire plugs with a wider gap?
Because studies done in the late 60s~ early 70s showed lower HC emissions due to reduced misfire.
So, Will a wider gap help fuel economy? Maybe...
But, only if you never increase the cylinder charge pressure to the point that you start create misfire conditions because the juice won't jump the gap. (As long as you can reliably start the fire. Like, Never open the secondaries. - SWAGuess -)
Your HEI will survive much better with a plug gap at 0.036~0.040. Don't try wider than that unless you plan to carry lots of spare ignition parts. (Says the guy that is running 0.060 probably out to 0.070 by now, but I do not have HEI. I have a Pertronix triggered real CDI (c.1973) and 8.8mm wires. This is not recommended practice for those uninitiated as messing with the secondary when it is running can prove to be very painful. ¡¡It will come to get you!!)
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: [GMCnet] Spark plugs advice please. About Gap . . . [message #265879 is a reply to message #265874] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 17:02 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707 Registered: May 2007 Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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I've been running AC Platinums, AC41-818 at .060 gap. I was
wondering what E3 plugs would be best in the 403.
On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Matt Colie wrote:
> Jarrar wrote on Tue, 11 November 2014 00:26
>> mrgmc3 wrote on Mon, 10 November 2014 20:26
>>> A '77 would have HEI, so larger gaps are generally accepted. Higher coil energy will jump a larger gap. Large gaps and high ignition energy
>>> tend to provide stronger more consistant flame initiation. The original gap of R46SX was .060 and of the R46SZ was .080". I run my HEI plugs at
>>> .060 and have acceptable performance.
>>> When you say the "acceleration is bad" it is not clear what you mean. A little clarity such as its sluggish, hesitated on tip-in etc would be
>>> helpful. These things run 0-60 in something like 16-18 seconds so they are not hot rods. If the performance is really poor it could be caused by
>>> any number of things including ignition.
>>> As far as brands go "AC" stopped making plugs 10 or so years ago. Current "ACDelco" plugs are supplied by NGK, I believe. I'd recommend them
>>> or Bosch or Autolite. High dollar iridium or multi electrode are a waste of money in my opinion.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the info but now I am more confused: People here say gap it at .040 but you are saying to gap it at .080 ??
>>
>> The plugs on it are the SZ ones. I am thinking I am just going to clean and re use them.
>>
>> Would there be a difference btwn the gap at .040 and .080 as far as how it runs and mileage ?
>>
>> Thanks.
>
> OK....
>
> The original gap for plugs used with the HEI systems was 0.080. Shortly after this was introduced it was discovered that the system really could not
> accommodate that and stay alive. Some GM changed the recommendation.
> Facts:
> Wider gap takes more initial voltage to fire.
> Higher cylinder charge pressure* takes more voltage to fire.
> (* Within the range of passcar cylinder pressures during normal operation.)
>
> Why did GM want to fire plugs with a wider gap?
> Because studies done in the late 60s~ early 70s showed lower HC emissions due to reduced misfire.
> So, Will a wider gap help fuel economy? Maybe...
> But, only if you never increase the cylinder charge pressure to the point that you start create misfire conditions because the juice won't jump the
> gap. (As long as you can reliably start the fire. Like, Never open the secondaries. - SWAGuess -)
>
> Your HEI will survive much better with a plug gap at 0.036~0.040. Don't try wider than that unless you plan to carry lots of spare ignition parts.
> (Says the guy that is running 0.060 probably out to 0.070 by now, but I do not have HEI. I have a Pertronix triggered real CDI (c.1973) and 8.8mm
> wires. This is not recommended practice for those uninitiated as messing with the secondary when it is running can prove to be very painful. ¡¡It
> will come to get you!!)
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
> '73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
--
Ray Erspamer
78 Royale - "The Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMCRoyale@gmail.com
414-484-9431
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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Re: Spark plugs advice please. [message #265891 is a reply to message #265821] |
Tue, 11 November 2014 20:36 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447 Registered: October 2006 Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Matt summed it up perfectly. My friend was a mech at a Pontiac dealer in 75. First cold snap the TAs and GPs were lined up in the lot brought in on the hook. At 080 once flooded it was a no start. GM came out with a TSB on the reduced gàp. 040 worked great.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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